fta
Is it sacrilegious to ask,

“If Hitler was intent on extermination, how did Elie Wiesel, his father, and two of his sisters survive the worst period of incarceration at Auschwitz?”

Wiesel claims that people were thrown alive into burning pits, yet even the Israeli-trained guides at Auschwitz refute this claim.

Is it really “beyond international discourse” to question the efficacy and the forensic evidence of homicidal gas chambers? If other myths, like making soap from human fat, have been dismissed as Allied war propaganda, why is it “unacceptable behaviour” to ask if the gas chamber at Dachau was not reconstructed by the Americans because no other homicidal gas chamber co...

fta
Is it sacrilegious to ask,

“If Hitler was intent on extermination, how did Elie Wiesel, his father, and two of his sisters survive the worst period of incarceration at Auschwitz?”

Wiesel claims that people were thrown alive into burning pits, yet even the Israeli-trained guides at Auschwitz refute this claim.

Is it really “beyond international discourse” to question the efficacy and the forensic evidence of homicidal gas chambers? If other myths, like making soap from human fat, have been dismissed as Allied war propaganda, why is it “unacceptable behaviour” to ask if the gas chamber at Dachau was not reconstructed by the Americans because no other homicidal gas chamber could be found and used as evidence at the Nuremburg trials?

For more than fifty years Jewish scholars have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to document each Jewish victim of the Nazi Holocaust. The Nazis were German, obsessed with paperwork and recordkeeping. Yet only 3M names have been collected and many of them died of natural causes. So why is it heresy to doubt that fewer than 6M Jews were murdered in the WW2?

“Holocaust Denial” might be no more eccentric or no more criminal than claiming the earth is flat, except that the Holocaust itself has been used as the sword and shield in the quest to build a Jewish state between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, where even today over half the population is not Jewish.

Moral courage in our leaders is in very short supply. Whether Catholic priest abuse, home incest, violence against females, excreta - all rely on silencing the victim and protecting the perpetrator. Again and again, the innocent inevitably must suffer initially before being believed and exposing the guilty. The expression

When they came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist. When they came for the Jews, I remained silent; I was not a Jew. ...

is apt here.

Only when there is something to hid is normal to prevent something being discussed. Is it a case with something as ENORMOUS as the Holocaust that there is something REALLY BIG to hid? I ...

Moral courage in our leaders is in very short supply. Whether Catholic priest abuse, home incest, violence against females, excreta - all rely on silencing the victim and protecting the perpetrator. Again and again, the innocent inevitably must suffer initially before being believed and exposing the guilty. The expression

When they came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist. When they came for the Jews, I remained silent; I was not a Jew. ...

is apt here.

Only when there is something to hid is normal to prevent something being discussed. Is it a case with something as ENORMOUS as the Holocaust that there is something REALLY BIG to hid? I know that certain bits are WRONG, so I must be very suspicious when normally sane historians risk liberty and reputation to attempt to enlighten the world as to their understanding of the truth!!!

@Apgalea, thank you for your moral courage and your excellent comment where most fear here to thread.

I told you to check out....

That tone may work on your partner, kids or students but it will not work on me. I've never had words with you, ever, and expect with this start that it may likely remain so.

Who is preventing discussion?

You are.

All of you: read a fucking book for Christ's sake.

Is that how you address your 'loved' ones, if they are any still about? Am I required by you to follow your direction to discontinue dealing with a topic that you and many others are afraid to deal with on your say so based on sources that you don't supply.

You may be a very unwell person and I've no wish to make you any worse. You may be like s[b]...

I told you to check out....

That tone may work on your partner, kids or students but it will not work on me. I've never had words with you, ever, and expect with this start that it may likely remain so.

Who is preventing discussion?

You are.

All of you: read a fucking book for Christ's sake.

Is that how you address your 'loved' ones, if they are any still about? Am I required by you to follow your direction to discontinue dealing with a topic that you and many others are afraid to deal with on your say so based on sources that you don't supply.

You may be a very unwell person and I've no wish to make you any worse. You may be like some of those self-delusioned persons that had books punished of their holocaust experiences only for them to be exposed as total frauds. You certainly have gone totally over the top here and I must wonder why and suspect your desire to silence discussion isn't just stupidity or arrogance!!! You've got me on our national day, St.Patrick's, so I going easy on you. Also, you seem sick or drunk.

My well-being, sanity, and sobriety have nothing to do with the fact that the Nazis carried out genocide. Obviously you would rather make the issue me rather than defend your absurd historical claims.

The testimony of Abraham Bomba and Franz Schalling in Shoah is worth anyone's time. So is the testimony of Oskar Gröning in Auschwitz: Inside the Nazi State. So is the contemporaneous Vrba-Wetzler report. So is the testimony of the men of [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-...

My well-being, sanity, and sobriety have nothing to do with the fact that the Nazis carried out genocide. Obviously you would rather make the issue me rather than defend your absurd historical claims.

The testimony of Abraham Bomba and Franz Schalling in Shoah is worth anyone's time. So is the testimony of Oskar Gröning in Auschwitz: Inside the Nazi State. So is the contemporaneous Vrba-Wetzler report. So is the testimony of the men of Reserve Battalion 101, German policemen stationed in the Lublin district in Poland who were sent to villages to shoot & kill Jews (and, less frequently, Poles in general).

My well-being, sanity, and sobriety have nothing to do with the fact that the Nazis carried out genocide. Obviously you would rather make the issue me rather than defend your absurd historical claims.

You still claim you are well, sane and sober after you foul language

All of you: read a fucking book for Christ's sake.

with no apology and

I told you to check out....

brow beating argument style as an opening gambit. Now you are imagining that I made historical claims about WW2!!! In future could you quote my words directly when making claims? It is a pity that I must educate you as to normal standards here. You do not learn easily. That's...

My well-being, sanity, and sobriety have nothing to do with the fact that the Nazis carried out genocide. Obviously you would rather make the issue me rather than defend your absurd historical claims.

You still claim you are well, sane and sober after you foul language

All of you: read a fucking book for Christ's sake.

with no apology and

I told you to check out....

brow beating argument style as an opening gambit. Now you are imagining that I made historical claims about WW2!!! In future could you quote my words directly when making claims? It is a pity that I must educate you as to normal standards here. You do not learn easily. That's unfortunate.

I suppose you believe that WW2 was about the elimination of the Jews?! Many many times more Slavs were murdered right from when Hitler invaded Russia. Do you know how many millions of Slavs died. The Jews were no impediment to Nazi ambitions as they had little land. The Slavs did and were traditional enemies. The Jews' value was as bargaining chips to be sucked dry of their assets and sold to the highest bidder. The Zionist had a deal with Hitler but demanded Palestine as the destination. It is very unfortunate the the US refused to take one extra Jew in when the Nazis were allowing their departure. Now the Arabs are paying for US inhospitality then with the last 60 years of hostility in the Middle East.

I'll check out your reluctant sources for their worth. Was it very difficult for you to do the right thing? Apologise to all for your foul language would progress your rehabilitation into normal forum discourse.

Mr.J. Klugman, by the strident tone of your comments I see that you are one of the chosen few. Indeed there are witnesses to Nazi atrocities, it is however strange that the only prominent ones always refers to the Jews, forget the Gypsies, the dis-abled, Slavs and other countless millions killed by the Germans.
Perhaps you should also read more widely and come down to earth and the fact that you have overplayed your holocaust card.
Fortunately there are plenty of witnesses of the Nazi-like behaviour of Israel in Palestine in general and Gaza in particular, not mentioning Lebanon and the Golan Heights, perhaps Sabra & Chatila comes to mind. I WAS A WITNESS!
Mr. Sharon and the cynically nam...

Mr.J. Klugman, by the strident tone of your comments I see that you are one of the chosen few. Indeed there are witnesses to Nazi atrocities, it is however strange that the only prominent ones always refers to the Jews, forget the Gypsies, the dis-abled, Slavs and other countless millions killed by the Germans.
Perhaps you should also read more widely and come down to earth and the fact that you have overplayed your holocaust card.
Fortunately there are plenty of witnesses of the Nazi-like behaviour of Israel in Palestine in general and Gaza in particular, not mentioning Lebanon and the Golan Heights, perhaps Sabra & Chatila comes to mind. I WAS A WITNESS!
Mr. Sharon and the cynically named Israel DEFENCE Force aided abetted and equipped the Christian militias that did Israel's dirty work.
I would indeed encourage you to read a little more, perhaps then we could have a serious and swear-free debate.Some of us who are perhaps not as widely read as your goodselve are none the less thoroughly fed up with your winging and complaining, whilst your protegé commits murder and mayhem against women and children German fashion.
I am also aware of Goy Ehad B'aretz,
but ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!
For your information I am not of any religious persuasion, so I have no drum to beat.
Your arrogance, ignorance and foul language are not doing your case any good. You should put forward other more convincing arguments.
Let me end by saying that, perhaps, you should analyse the word: SHALOM.

ratcatcher2 said:

The Jews were no impediment to Nazi ambitions as they had little land. The Slavs did and were traditional enemies. The Jews' value was as bargaining chips to be sucked dry of their assets and sold to the highest bidder.

The argument that it-makes-no-sense-for-the-Nazis-to-kill-Jews-therefore-the-Holocaust-is-in-question is weak. From their warped point of view, the Nazis saw the Jews as a threat to the German (non-Jewish) people and to the Nazi state. But don't take my word for it.

Adolf Hitler, speaking before the Reichstag on January 30, 1939 said:

Today I will once more be a prophet: if the international Jewish financiers in and otuside Europe should succe...

read more»

ratcatcher2 said:

The Jews were no impediment to Nazi ambitions as they had little land. The Slavs did and were traditional enemies. The Jews' value was as bargaining chips to be sucked dry of their assets and sold to the highest bidder.

The argument that it-makes-no-sense-for-the-Nazis-to-kill-Jews-therefore-the-Holocaust-is-in-question is weak. From their warped point of view, the Nazis saw the Jews as a threat to the German (non-Jewish) people and to the Nazi state. But don't take my word for it.

Adolf Hitler, speaking before the Reichstag on January 30, 1939 said:

Today I will once more be a prophet: if the international Jewish financiers in and otuside Europe should succeed in plunging hen ations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevizing of the earth, and thus the victory of Jews but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe![/url]

Mr.J. Klugman, by the strident tone of your comments I see that you are one of the chosen few.

My religion/ethnicity is irrelevant. But if you think you can deduce people's ethnicity based on what they say about the Holocaust you are terribly mistaken.

Indeed there are witnesses to Nazi atrocities, it is however strange that the only prominent ones always refers to the Jews, forget the Gypsies, the dis-abled, Slavs and other countless millions killed by the Germans.

Non sequitur. I never denied the Nazi killings of the Roma, disabled, Slavs, homosexuals. Given that everyone else commenting here has gone along with ratcatcher's sentiment that the Final Sol...

Mr.J. Klugman, by the strident tone of your comments I see that you are one of the chosen few.

My religion/ethnicity is irrelevant. But if you think you can deduce people's ethnicity based on what they say about the Holocaust you are terribly mistaken.

Indeed there are witnesses to Nazi atrocities, it is however strange that the only prominent ones always refers to the Jews, forget the Gypsies, the dis-abled, Slavs and other countless millions killed by the Germans.

Non sequitur. I never denied the Nazi killings of the Roma, disabled, Slavs, homosexuals. Given that everyone else commenting here has gone along with ratcatcher's sentiment that the Final Solution may not have happened, I am the only one here who fully accepts that Nazi planned extermination programs occurred.

Fortunately there are plenty of witnesses of the Nazi-like behaviour of Israel in Palestine in general and Gaza in particular, not mentioning Lebanon and the Golan Heights, perhaps Sabra & Chatila comes to mind. I WAS A WITNESS!

Non sequitur and a self-canceling argument to boot. First, I never denied that there are atrocities committed by Israelis. In fact, it is because I am concerned about those atrocities that I find this entire clip distasteful because it links legitimate criticism of Israel's conduct to essentially the historical analogue of the phlogiston theory.

Second, in your first comment you waffle on whether or not there was Nazi genocide programs (maybe the Nazis weren't so bad after all). Then you accuse the Israelis of acting like Nazis (the Nazis were bad and so are Israelies). Which is it? For the Palestinians' sake I hope that whenever you criticize Israel you do a better job than you do here.

Proof that two heads are better than one.
Maybe now more will find the moral courage to question our quite recent history. Who else is proud to label themselves as anti Zionist? Surely eight years of Bush's lies should be a wake up call for all to doubt what is in the neoCon/Zionist interest, for us to doubt everything that they want us to believe? Answer, who invaded first in the Georgia v Russia incident, and I'll know who uses their own critical facilities!!! The Zionist were central there too.

How quickly Gaza went off your radar. Next time it will be a repeat performance of Warsaw Ghetto from the modern day Nazis with not leave a brick left on a brick, courtesy of US F...

Proof that two heads are better than one.
Maybe now more will find the moral courage to question our quite recent history. Who else is proud to label themselves as anti Zionist? Surely eight years of Bush's lies should be a wake up call for all to doubt what is in the neoCon/Zionist interest, for us to doubt everything that they want us to believe? Answer, who invaded first in the Georgia v Russia incident, and I'll know who uses their own critical facilities!!! The Zionist were central there too.

How quickly Gaza went off your radar. Next time it will be a repeat performance of Warsaw Ghetto from the modern day Nazis with not leave a brick left on a brick, courtesy of US F-16s. When? Whenever the next election in Israel is one point, obviously. Or they need to improve the skills of their snipers while there are Gazan kids to kill.

A version of the holocaust is the origin of the Middle East's conflicts. With fewer and fewer survivors alive, the need exploit the victimhood status into another generation is imperative. Your leaders are not noted for their scholarship or their moral courage. While AIPAC vets who gets elected with their vast foreign funds, that is replenished yearly by Congress to the beggar-bowl Israeli state - the cause of all conflict - is there ever going to be a change?

Ok, I have an advantage. I'm not bombarded constantly with the compliant Zionist propaganda that passes as news nor need I worry about being bullied and intimidated by ADL. Yet, I did start from a real liking of the socially conscious Jews and wanted to do kibbutz in my youth. To my shame, I too read the blood and gore of Leon Uris books that depicted the Arab Nakba and ethic cleansing of 1948 from the point of view of the newly arrived Nazis/Zionist into Palestine.

Where are all those good Jews now? Labeled self-haters or traitors and intimidated by the Zionist lobby? One Zionist supporter here on ClipMarks said ...

[url=/clipmark/A515106E-6F60-416F-BE94-0F3B7ED1665D/]This makes[b]...

Ok, I have an advantage. I'm not bombarded constantly with the compliant Zionist propaganda that passes as news nor need I worry about being bullied and intimidated by ADL. Yet, I did start from a real liking of the socially conscious Jews and wanted to do kibbutz in my youth. To my shame, I too read the blood and gore of Leon Uris books that depicted the Arab Nakba and ethic cleansing of 1948 from the point of view of the newly arrived Nazis/Zionist into Palestine.

Where are all those good Jews now? Labeled self-haters or traitors and intimidated by the Zionist lobby? One Zionist supporter here on ClipMarks said ...

This makes the Muslim religion a threat to everyone who is not Muslim.

Another ...

Not all Muslims are terrorists, you know

What is such hateful Islamophobia in comparison with questioning the real number of holocaust victims. One gets you jail while the other gets you followers.

That reminds me of the saying:"some of my best friends are Jews, but......"
Strangely enough I think Mr. Klugman, also started from a critically conscious position of present Israeli policies towards Palestine, somehow he suddenly reverted to norm.
He seems to fly off in every direction thinking that attack is the best form of defence, typical Sabra behaviour.
I would still hope he has something positive to contribute to this debate, rather than just ranting.
I would like him to address some of the pertinent questions posed by the commentators, since, I believe, he is in a good position to educate us in this most important of conflicts.
Sometimes I think I am just a "Vox clamantis in desert...

That reminds me of the saying:"some of my best friends are Jews, but......"
Strangely enough I think Mr. Klugman, also started from a critically conscious position of present Israeli policies towards Palestine, somehow he suddenly reverted to norm.
He seems to fly off in every direction thinking that attack is the best form of defence, typical Sabra behaviour.
I would still hope he has something positive to contribute to this debate, rather than just ranting.
I would like him to address some of the pertinent questions posed by the commentators, since, I believe, he is in a good position to educate us in this most important of conflicts.
Sometimes I think I am just a "Vox clamantis in deserto" and that we have no future as a species.
I jolly well hope I am wrong.

"What does the Holocaust denial really mean?
Judging from what I read here it really means-

(addressed to ratcatcher2 as well as the other half of the "two heads better then one team" apgalea)

Because I don't like the actions of the Israelis right now and in the recent past I am going to try to find any holes or misstatements relating to the Holocaust as a means to not only downplay but deny it's existence in hopes of undermining the credibility of Israel and Zionism.

I think that the political correctness regarding the Holocaust is wrong. For example the point about the many non-Jews killed by the Nazis is often taken as Holocaust denial and an "attack" on the Jews. It is not. It in no w...

"What does the Holocaust denial really mean?
Judging from what I read here it really means-

(addressed to ratcatcher2 as well as the other half of the "two heads better then one team" apgalea)

Because I don't like the actions of the Israelis right now and in the recent past I am going to try to find any holes or misstatements relating to the Holocaust as a means to not only downplay but deny it's existence in hopes of undermining the credibility of Israel and Zionism.

I think that the political correctness regarding the Holocaust is wrong. For example the point about the many non-Jews killed by the Nazis is often taken as Holocaust denial and an "attack" on the Jews. It is not. It in no way diminishes or downplays the sufferings of the Jews by pointing out they were not the only victims.
And certainly being a skeptic myself I think everything should be open to questioning.

But I must agree with Mr Klugman. By your linking of Holocaust denial to the actions of Israel you discredit yourself.
Whether or not the Holocaust is properly understood has nothing to do with what Israel does or does not do today.
I believe the Holocaust happened. That does not make me a Zionist or a supporter of Israel.

Regarding Mr Klugman's language and tone-
Perhaps you were really as offended as you claim but I think you found his language and tone to be an easy mark to criticize rather then deal with the actual issues he has raised.

To sum it up-
What Israel does today has no effect on whether or not the Holocaust existed. So let's leave that out of it.

You want to deny the Holocaust? Fine- I'm listening. Let's hear it.

You pick and choose without cutting to the chase.
As far as I am concerned the Germans killed a lot of Jews, whether the figure of 6.000.000.- is correct or not is neither here nor there. Murder is murder!
I am not advocating the denial of the holocaust, perhaps in your haste to comment you did not appreciate this.
At the same time and by the same yardstick one cannot deny the Palestinian holocaust (check dictionary definition of holocaust; from the Greek HOLOS, KAUSTOS--COMPLETE & BURNT.).
Please note the number of Palestinians dispersed world-wide, plus the ones in refugee camps with no right of return-ethnic cleansing perhaps?The least said about Palestinians living in Israel as second...

You pick and choose without cutting to the chase.
As far as I am concerned the Germans killed a lot of Jews, whether the figure of 6.000.000.- is correct or not is neither here nor there. Murder is murder!
I am not advocating the denial of the holocaust, perhaps in your haste to comment you did not appreciate this.
At the same time and by the same yardstick one cannot deny the Palestinian holocaust (check dictionary definition of holocaust; from the Greek HOLOS, KAUSTOS--COMPLETE & BURNT.).
Please note the number of Palestinians dispersed world-wide, plus the ones in refugee camps with no right of return-ethnic cleansing perhaps?The least said about Palestinians living in Israel as second class citizens in their own land the better.
I will not try to put a number on the numbers killed by Israel in the various provoked and unprovoked wars and government sanctioned assassinations.
If any of the above statements are untrue please point it out and I will gladly and unreservedly apologise.
If however all of it is true then.................
I will not accept arguments like the Promised Land and the Chosen People.
Were that to be your argument, then this conversation is closed as far as I am concerned.
I am adamant about this.
Are you still listening?
In your summation you say that the holocaust has no effect on what Israel does.
I am not suggesting this, I am stating that Israel uses this event as smokescreen for it's nefarious actions against Palestinians and further afield. Whenever they commit an atrocity, you can rest assured that the holocaust will surface in the media at the same time in one form or another.
Check it out.
Please don't dismiss this out of hand as anti-Semitism.
IT WILL NOT WASH.
Just remember that most people do not know that the Arabs are also Semites.
As for Zionism, it has no credibility.

Thank you for your patience.
The other 1/2 of the heads.

Again. "How quickly Gaza went off your radar. Next time it will be a repeat performance of Warsaw Ghetto from the modern day Nazis with not leave a brick left on a brick, courtesy of US F-16s. When? Whenever the next election in Israel is one point, obviously. Or they need to improve the skills of their snipers while there are Gazan kids to kill.

"A version of the holocaust is the origin of the Middle East's conflicts. With fewer and fewer survivors alive, the need exploit the victimhood status into another generation is imperative. Your leaders are not noted for their scholarship or their moral courage. While AIPAC vets who gets elected with their vast foreign funds, that is repleni...

Again. "How quickly Gaza went off your radar. Next time it will be a repeat performance of Warsaw Ghetto from the modern day Nazis with not leave a brick left on a brick, courtesy of US F-16s. When? Whenever the next election in Israel is one point, obviously. Or they need to improve the skills of their snipers while there are Gazan kids to kill.

"A version of the holocaust is the origin of the Middle East's conflicts. With fewer and fewer survivors alive, the need exploit the victimhood status into another generation is imperative. Your leaders are not noted for their scholarship or their moral courage. While AIPAC vets who gets elected with their vast foreign funds, that is replenished yearly by Congress to the beggar-bowl Israeli state - the cause of all conflict - is there ever going to be a change?"

@T2b What Israel does today has no effect on whether or not the Holocaust existed. So let's leave that out of it.

Had I not refuted this argument before you said ...

@T2b You want to deny the Holocaust?

Where did I write ANYTHING that supports that I denied the holocaust? Please quote me if you making such serious allegation. Is this not a device to avoid discussing the numbers that actually died? Why do you require the suspension of all critical facilities on discussing this matter when so many such as WMDs have proved to be lies? Maybe you might have the honesty and courage to disclose your allegiances? I am!

And to the "other " head-

In your summation you say that the holocaust has no effect on what Israel does.

No, I say the exact opposite. What Israel does has no effect on the Holocaust.

You should state upfront where you stand rather than hide and pussyfoot around,

This is a clip about the Holocaust and what denying it means. It is not a clip about Israel-Palestine relations nor is it about whether Georgia or Russia invaded first or whether or not I think the bailout is a good idea.
For what it is worth- you listed a bunch of statements regarding the treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis. I agree with all of them but so what? This is not a clip about Israeli...

And to the "other " head-

In your summation you say that the holocaust has no effect on what Israel does.

No, I say the exact opposite. What Israel does has no effect on the Holocaust.

You should state upfront where you stand rather than hide and pussyfoot around,

This is a clip about the Holocaust and what denying it means. It is not a clip about Israel-Palestine relations nor is it about whether Georgia or Russia invaded first or whether or not I think the bailout is a good idea.
For what it is worth- you listed a bunch of statements regarding the treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis. I agree with all of them but so what? This is not a clip about Israeli treatment of Palestinians- it's about Nazi treatment of Jews in the 30s and 40s

I'm assuming you do. Perhaps I'm wrong. If you agree you are a holocaust denier according to the article you are promoting. If not then I am mistaken.

Yes you are, and it should not need explaining why you ARE wrong. Where did I agree with the article. If I clip an item on rape, am I promoting rape? If I clip "Election Dirty Tricks Again in Washington and El Salvador" am I advocating for or against dirty tricks? USA? El Salvador?

Personally, I don't see my role as regurgitating the BBC's or the Guardian's articles. I don't clip contentious or dubious blogs but do clip minority interest items often from Israeli newspapers that are far superior to US coverage or are nev...

I'm assuming you do. Perhaps I'm wrong. If you agree you are a holocaust denier according to the article you are promoting. If not then I am mistaken.

Yes you are, and it should not need explaining why you ARE wrong. Where did I agree with the article. If I clip an item on rape, am I promoting rape? If I clip "Election Dirty Tricks Again in Washington and El Salvador" am I advocating for or against dirty tricks? USA? El Salvador?

Personally, I don't see my role as regurgitating the BBC's or the Guardian's articles. I don't clip contentious or dubious blogs but do clip minority interest items often from Israeli newspapers that are far superior to US coverage or are never carried by the US 'media'. This can NEVER be seen as being for or against the item. Do you only clip what you are a supporter of? To see what my interest are, check me out as righthand on...
http://delicious.com/righthand

The Georgia or Russia invaded sentence was a test as to your ability to use your critical facilities, that I as the clipper could ask. You failed. When did you know, if ever, that WMD never were justification for wasting 4,250+ US and tens of 1,000s of Iraqis lives? How do you KNOW 6 million died?

How naive are you? I asked you to quote my words and you quote words from within the original article. Is that not dishonest? Or stupid? Anyway you admited that you were wrong so all is forgiven at my end.

ratcatcher, 13.5 hours ago said:

Is it sacrilegious to ask,

If Hitler was intent on extermination, how did Elie Wiesel, his father, and two of his sisters survive the worst period of incarceration at Auschwitz?

ratcatcher, 4 hours ago said:

How quickly Gaza went off your radar. Next time it will be a repeat performance of Warsaw Ghetto from the modern day Nazis with not leave a brick left on a brick, courtesy of US F-16s. When? Whenever the next election in Israel is one point, obviously. Or they need to improve the skills of their snipers while there are Gazan kids to kill.

Hilarious. I am relieved that serious critics of Israel's conduct (such as...

ratcatcher, 13.5 hours ago said:

Is it sacrilegious to ask,

If Hitler was intent on extermination, how did Elie Wiesel, his father, and two of his sisters survive the worst period of incarceration at Auschwitz?

ratcatcher, 4 hours ago said:

How quickly Gaza went off your radar. Next time it will be a repeat performance of Warsaw Ghetto from the modern day Nazis with not leave a brick left on a brick, courtesy of US F-16s. When? Whenever the next election in Israel is one point, obviously. Or they need to improve the skills of their snipers while there are Gazan kids to kill.

Hilarious. I am relieved that serious critics of Israel's conduct (such as Ali Abunimah, Philip Weiss, Walt & Mearscheimer, Chas Freeman, MJ Rosenberg, Norman Finklestein) aren't given to make such unreflective, self-contradictory statements. But I am sure Zionists hope that their opponents all sound like you.

ratcatcher,
So to sum up your ramble-
Despite your claim to be an "open book" although you deny having agreed with the points in the article you do not explicitly disagree either. So which is it?
By noting you have not agreed with the article you are implying that you disagree with it.
So I'll go with that.

So you clipped an article about the Holocaust that you disagree with, mention no disagreement with it and proceed to reiterate and defend the position taken in the article, but I and my fellow clippers are supposed to understand somehow that you are really against the position the article presents?
BTW- Regarding my "failure" of your self declared critical thinking test.
I was clipping ...

ratcatcher,
So to sum up your ramble-
Despite your claim to be an "open book" although you deny having agreed with the points in the article you do not explicitly disagree either. So which is it?
By noting you have not agreed with the article you are implying that you disagree with it.
So I'll go with that.

So you clipped an article about the Holocaust that you disagree with, mention no disagreement with it and proceed to reiterate and defend the position taken in the article, but I and my fellow clippers are supposed to understand somehow that you are really against the position the article presents?
BTW- Regarding my "failure" of your self declared critical thinking test.
I was clipping on the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia (not the Russian invasion) from the first day.

http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/35191A68-206F-446D-BA7E-E4047F4DC92C/

Dear, dear Mr. Klugman,
I certainly would not want you as my defence counsel, not even in a minor traffic incident.
You are obsessed with the holocaust denial.
I suggest you take a drink, or a smoke or whatever, re-read the whole shebang, calm down and address the issues. And please do not watch too much TV or Hollywood trash.
I haven't denied anything nor has ratcatcher as far as I am aware.
To me the issue is THAT THE ZIONISTS USE THE HOLOCAUST FOR THEIR OWN ENDS REGARDLESS OF TRUTH, SENSITIVITY OR DECORUM, ESPECIALLY WHEN MONEY-MAKING IS CONCERNED, and most certainly when they murder bomb and pillage. arrogantly disregarding international law holding the occupying power responsible for ...

Dear, dear Mr. Klugman,
I certainly would not want you as my defence counsel, not even in a minor traffic incident.
You are obsessed with the holocaust denial.
I suggest you take a drink, or a smoke or whatever, re-read the whole shebang, calm down and address the issues. And please do not watch too much TV or Hollywood trash.
I haven't denied anything nor has ratcatcher as far as I am aware.
To me the issue is THAT THE ZIONISTS USE THE HOLOCAUST FOR THEIR OWN ENDS REGARDLESS OF TRUTH, SENSITIVITY OR DECORUM, ESPECIALLY WHEN MONEY-MAKING IS CONCERNED, and most certainly when they murder bomb and pillage. arrogantly disregarding international law holding the occupying power responsible for the well being of the general population.
Now, if you can refute this, then perhaps I'll change my stance.
I am honest and say upfront what I believe, wish to god others would do likewise.
Thank you.
P.S. Whilst writing this comment your own regarding a mistakenly addressed comment came on screen.
Seriously take my advice and relax.
All the best.

@Jklugman

ratcatcher, 13.5 hours ago said:

Is it sacrilegious to ask,

If Hitler was intent on extermination ...

Well ratcatcher2 did NOT say that. The author of the original article DID. That is the whole point of ClipMarks - clipping an interesting article by clipping from the original article. Clearly you have never understood this and this is underscored with your miserly input here.

I detect a pattern here of (deliberate) error by you. You cannot be so consistently challenged to get ANYTHING correct. You will be equalling Bush for being WRONG. He might claim that some/many of his errors were intentional so. Are your errors deliberate o...

@Jklugman

ratcatcher, 13.5 hours ago said:

Is it sacrilegious to ask,

If Hitler was intent on extermination ...

Well ratcatcher2 did NOT say that. The author of the original article DID. That is the whole point of ClipMarks - clipping an interesting article by clipping from the original article. Clearly you have never understood this and this is underscored with your miserly input here.

I detect a pattern here of (deliberate) error by you. You cannot be so consistently challenged to get ANYTHING correct. You will be equalling Bush for being WRONG. He might claim that some/many of his errors were intentional so. Are your errors deliberate or are you just stupid?
fta
The Holocaust narrative allows Yad Vashem, the finest Holocaust museum in the world, to repeat the mantra of “Never Forget” while it sits on Arab lands stolen from Ein Karem and overlooking the unmarked graves of Palestinians massacred by Jewish terrorists at Deir Yassin. It allows Elie Wiesel to boast of having worked for these same terrorists while refusing to acknowledge, let alone apologize for, the war crimes his employer committed. It makes Jews the ultimate victim no matter how they dispossess or dehumanize or ethnically cleanse indigenous Palestinian people.

The Holocaust story eliminates any comparison of Ketziot or Gaza to the concentration camps they indeed are. It memorialises the resistance of Jews in the ghettos of Europe while steadfastly denying any comparison with the resistance of Palestinians in Hebron and throughout the West Bank. It allows claims that this year’s Hanukah Massacre in Gaza, with a kill ratio of 100 to one, was a “proportionate response” to Palestinian resistance to unending occupation.

@T2b

Despite your claim to be an "open book" although you deny having agreed with the points in the article you do not explicitly disagree either. ... So I'll go with that.

You also show an inability to use ClipMarks properly. I'll ask you for the third time to use quotations around MY words when you supposedly quote me. Can I be clearer than that?

No! You are again wrong in your inference as to my mind. Judge only on what I write, and not what you believe that I think. I've explained this previously. Must I do so again? I'll repeat what I said to your Zionist buddy.

I detect a pattern here of (deliberate) error by you. You cannot be so consistently challenged ...

read more»

@T2b

Despite your claim to be an "open book" although you deny having agreed with the points in the article you do not explicitly disagree either. ... So I'll go with that.

You also show an inability to use ClipMarks properly. I'll ask you for the third time to use quotations around MY words when you supposedly quote me. Can I be clearer than that?

No! You are again wrong in your inference as to my mind. Judge only on what I write, and not what you believe that I think. I've explained this previously. Must I do so again? I'll repeat what I said to your Zionist buddy.

I detect a pattern here of (deliberate) error by you. You cannot be so consistently challenged to get ANYTHING correct. You will be equalling Bush for being WRONG. He might claim that some/many of his errors were intentional so. Are your errors deliberate or are you just stupid?

You may pick out the bits that apply to yourself. Your good cop/Zionist mask is slipping, badly. The rest of that input

So you clipped an article about...

is meaningless given that your earlier premise is entirely faulty. Your

I was clipping on the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia

is pathetic give ONE pop. In fact, your input here is also miserly.

Way beyond my knowledge but very very informative is a comment on the article by ..."Steve said on February 17th, 2009 at 2:27pm ", if you wish to be informed! One point is

– The Red Cross issued a massive, three volume, 1,600 page report on the camps after the war, part of which reads: “In the final months of the war, the camps received no food supplies at all and starvation claimed an increasing number of victims.” … Gen. Kaltenbrunner. . . Allowed the Red Cross to distribute relief packages and one (Red Cross) delegate was authorized to stay in each camp (as an observer). ...

Way beyond my knowledge but very very informative is a comment on the article by ..."Steve said on February 17th, 2009 at 2:27pm ", if you wish to be informed! One point is

– The Red Cross issued a massive, three volume, 1,600 page report on the camps after the war, part of which reads: “In the final months of the war, the camps received no food supplies at all and starvation claimed an increasing number of victims.” … Gen. Kaltenbrunner. . . Allowed the Red Cross to distribute relief packages and one (Red Cross) delegate was authorized to stay in each camp (as an observer). Were the Germans that sneaky to be able to hide their diabolical gassing operations (some “witnesses” claim thousands were gassed at a time, 24/7) from Red Cross observers? Were any of these “witnesses” who claim such incredible things ever cross-examined? Nope!

What we nowadays call the “Holocaust” was in reality Germany’s “Final Solution” to their “Jewish problem”. What was Germany’s problem with Jews isn’t clear and is another matter all together. The government’s policy then was emigration for the Jews; surely heartless, but not extermination via gassings.

I wrote-

Despite your claim to be an "open book" although you deny having agreed
with the points in the article you do not explicitly disagree either.

ratcatcher2 said-

I'll ask you for the third time to use quotations around MY words when you supposedly quote me. Can I be clearer than that?

And-

No! You are again wrong in your inference as to my mind. Judge only on what I write, and not what you believe that I think.

Here are your words ratcatcher2-

Assure me that you are well and sane and sober. Evidence is required
that you are not like some of those self-delusioned persons that had
books punished of their holocaust experiences...

read more»

I wrote-

Despite your claim to be an "open book" although you deny having agreed
with the points in the article you do not explicitly disagree either.

ratcatcher2 said-

I'll ask you for the third time to use quotations around MY words when you supposedly quote me. Can I be clearer than that?

And-

No! You are again wrong in your inference as to my mind. Judge only on what I write, and not what you believe that I think.

Here are your words ratcatcher2-

Assure me that you are well and sane and sober. Evidence is required
that you are not like some of those self-delusioned persons that had
books punished of their holocaust experiences only for them to be
exposed as total frauds. Are you a fraud? I'm an open book, and you?

Now we have covered that those are indeed your words.
So tell me Mr Openbook why is it so difficult for you to state whether or not you agree with the article.

First you point out that you don't state that you agree with the article. As you seem to need memory aids to recall your own words,here is the quote-

Where did I agree with the article. If I clip an item on rape, am I promoting rape?

Note you don't say whether or not you agree, you just claim to have not indicated agreement.

Then you offer a link to a comment on the article that supports the article.
So since you claim (and I quote)

I'm an open book

Could you state if you agree with the article or not?

Of course you don't have to tell me or anyone-Mr "Open Book"

Back for more? Glutton for punishment. Part of the victimhood beggar-bowl physic? You prove that an old dog can learn by attempting to quote my words at last but true to form, you are WRONG again with more deliberate misreading or is it gross stupidity? I said ...

Way beyond my knowledge but very very informative is a comment on the article by ..."Steve said on February 17th, 2009 at 2:27pm ", if you wish to be informed!

...clearly stating that it was a comment on the original article. Clear as day, to those that can see. You chose ...

I also love how you press me for "source evidence" and then you go ahead and use a blog comment by some guy named "Steve" when his poi...

read more»

Back for more? Glutton for punishment. Part of the victimhood beggar-bowl physic? You prove that an old dog can learn by attempting to quote my words at last but true to form, you are WRONG again with more deliberate misreading or is it gross stupidity? I said ...

Way beyond my knowledge but very very informative is a comment on the article by ..."Steve said on February 17th, 2009 at 2:27pm ", if you wish to be informed!

...clearly stating that it was a comment on the original article. Clear as day, to those that can see. You chose ...

I also love how you press me for "source evidence" and then you go ahead and use a blog comment by some guy named "Steve" when his points fit your agenda.

Didn't like what the Red Cross witnesses had to say so you attempt to rubbish Steve when you cannot rubbish the impeccable evidence of the Red Cross. Shoot the messenger if you disagree with the message, again?! Remember again my

Way beyond my knowledge but very very informative is a comment ...

Is there any word there that you do not understand? Where do I endorse Steve? I expect his Red Cross evidence is true, but I cannot endorse it and said it was "way beyond my knowledge". I do accept your point of the power of his evidence. I accept that it does support a deeper examination these tragic events.

Is english your first language? I'm still mystified as to explaining your extraordinary performance here. You deny sanity, drink and health as excuses. I'm dyslexic myself so can understand if you have difficulty understand my simple words. Are there no others of the ratpack that could give you a dig out? I find that it's less fun when it's so one sided.

@T2b My

You also show an inability to use ClipMarks properly.

but you are learning but have a long way to go. Your

So tell me Mr Openbook why is it so difficult for you to state whether or not you agree with the article.

again shows an inability to use any forum correctly. My

Way beyond my knowledge but very very informative is a comment on the article by ..."Steve said on February 17th, 2009 at 2:27pm ", if you wish to be informed!

clearly is an example of my bring information to the party without being able to support or deny it as it originat...

@T2b My

You also show an inability to use ClipMarks properly.

but you are learning but have a long way to go. Your

So tell me Mr Openbook why is it so difficult for you to state whether or not you agree with the article.

again shows an inability to use any forum correctly. My

Way beyond my knowledge but very very informative is a comment on the article by ..."Steve said on February 17th, 2009 at 2:27pm ", if you wish to be informed!

clearly is an example of my bring information to the party without being able to support or deny it as it originated with the Red Cross. Don't you get that? Your attempting to get me to endorse other's words unless I wish will not work. Try dealing with the message and not the messenger. Is your knowledge so shallow that you must resort to schoolyard attacks and not the issue. So no more

Could you state if you agree with the article or not?

. When they are my words, it will be clear - well to most. Your

First you point out that you don't state that you agree with the article.

is beyond my comprehension. To me, this isn't a sentence! Are you dyslexic too? I've no wish to spend my time guessing as to your intent. It's clear too that you have no understanding of the meaning of open book.

Are you a Rhino Jack willing to nuke friend and foe alike? Barry is interesting, don't you think? And Barry again? Ken?

I do totally endorse this by Duane Evans!!!

“On 10 December 1948, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights…”

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this ri[b]...

I do totally endorse this by Duane Evans!!!

“On 10 December 1948, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights…”

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

righthand
Clearly I need not believe in god or gods nor 6 million, if you have moral courage, an operating brain, nor a desire to murder Gazan kids!!!

Are you a Rhino Jack willing to nuke friend and foe alike? Barry is interesting, don't you think? And Barry again? Ken?

I did read these links. But you have made it clear that even though you are referencing a link in support of your position it doesn't mean you agree with it. At least as clear as such an absurd position can be expressed. So since you didn't acknowledge you agreed with them (or not) they serve no purpose.

I do totally endorse this by Duane Evans!!!

Well, something you will admit to endorsing AT LAST.
Ooops, sorry you only said you endorsed it, you didn't say you STILL endorse it. Better stay with exactly what you said.

You then post...

Are you a Rhino Jack willing to nuke friend and foe alike? Barry is interesting, don't you think? And Barry again? Ken?

I did read these links. But you have made it clear that even though you are referencing a link in support of your position it doesn't mean you agree with it. At least as clear as such an absurd position can be expressed. So since you didn't acknowledge you agreed with them (or not) they serve no purpose.

I do totally endorse this by Duane Evans!!!

Well, something you will admit to endorsing AT LAST.
Ooops, sorry you only said you endorsed it, you didn't say you STILL endorse it. Better stay with exactly what you said.

You then posted what Duane Evans said except you left out the last line.
I should know better than to expect you to be the open book you claimed. Oops sorry, my mistake forgot to quote you-

I'm an open book

But here is the last line of Duane's

I do not understand how prosecution for “Holocuast (Half-a-caust would be more like it) Denial” does not violate these articles.

So as to not put words in your mouth when you say you endorse "this" by Duane are you agreeing with the last line also or only the declaration of Human rights articles?

Again shows an inability to use this forum correctly. While Duane Evans was quoting exactly from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, I of course endorsed entirely. Do you?Your Zionist brethren are having difficulties with the UN Human Rights Council. How often now have they been hauled over the coals for breaches? You quote

But here is the last line of Duane's

I do not understand how prosecution for “Holocuast (Half-a-caust would be more like it) Denial” does not violate these articles.

[/q...

read more»

Again shows an inability to use this forum correctly. While Duane Evans was quoting exactly from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, I of course endorsed entirely. Do you?Your Zionist brethren are having difficulties with the UN Human Rights Council. How often now have they been hauled over the coals for breaches? You quote

But here is the last line of Duane's

I do not understand how prosecution for “Holocuast (Half-a-caust would be more like it) Denial” does not violate these articles.

Do you agree with him? I saw little point in adding his personal input but your foolishness in introducing his words is fine with me. You are not very good at this are you? That hole that you insist in digging is above your neck now. Where is the rest of the ratpack? They've left you hanging out to dry!

Did you get to Ken

After the fall of Communism, the Polish government revised the death toll at Auschwitz downward from 4 million to “about 1.5 million. This figure has been validated by the Israeli Yad Vashem, their official Holocaust Memorial Museum in Tel Aviv. In spite of this fact, the Official Tale still insists that the only number that is acceptable is the number six million. Not “about” six million, not 5.9 million, no no, exactly six million. You don’t have to be a raging Nazi or wacko to see something wrong with that

Do you agree with him? Fascinating all this new stuff, don't you think?

Suthiano is also interesting. Like

When Joel Brand met with the Jewish Agency it was headed by Moshe Sharett. Born Moshe Shertok, in Kherson, U

New York Times, March 19th, 2009 said:

An 83-year-old man who admitted that as a Nazi concentration camp guard he took part in a two-day killing spree in which 42,000 people were killed was deported to Austria Thursday from his home in Wisconsin, immigration officials said.

The former guard, Josias Kumpf, admitted that he participated in a murderous November 1943 Nazi operation that went by the code name “Aktion Erntefest” — Operation Harvest Festival — in which roughly 42,000 Jewish men, women and children were murdered at three Nazi camps in eastern Poland in two days.[1]

I accept that it does support a deeper...

New York Times, March 19th, 2009 said:

An 83-year-old man who admitted that as a Nazi concentration camp guard he took part in a two-day killing spree in which 42,000 people were killed was deported to Austria Thursday from his home in Wisconsin, immigration officials said.

The former guard, Josias Kumpf, admitted that he participated in a murderous November 1943 Nazi operation that went by the code name “Aktion Erntefest” — Operation Harvest Festival — in which roughly 42,000 Jewish men, women and children were murdered at three Nazi camps in eastern Poland in two days.[1]

I accept that it does support a deeper examination these tragic events.

I wonder if this provokes ratcatcher2 to do a "deeper examination" of the Nazi policy to systematically exterminate Jews.

I won't hold my breath.

Ratcatcher2-

I wrote-
But here is the last line of Duane's

I do not understand how prosecution for “Holocuast (Half-a-caust would be more like it) Denial” does not violate these articles.

So as to not put words in your mouth when you say you endorse "this" by
Duane are you agreeing with the last line also or only the declaration
of Human rights articles?

Despite declaring yourself an' open door' earlier you refused to answer.
Instead you wrote-

Do you agree with him? I saw little point in adding his personal input
but your foolishness in introducing his words is fine with me. You are
not very good at this are you? That hole that you insist in digging ...

read more»

Ratcatcher2-

I wrote-
But here is the last line of Duane's

I do not understand how prosecution for “Holocuast (Half-a-caust would be more like it) Denial” does not violate these articles.

So as to not put words in your mouth when you say you endorse "this" by
Duane are you agreeing with the last line also or only the declaration
of Human rights articles?

Despite declaring yourself an' open door' earlier you refused to answer.
Instead you wrote-

Do you agree with him? I saw little point in adding his personal input
but your foolishness in introducing his words is fine with me. You are
not very good at this are you? That hole that you insist in digging is
above your neck now.

Unlike yourself I will answer your question. Then I'll ask you once again to also answer it.

No, I do not agree with him. Getting past the yes or no answer it is the usage of the term Half-a-Caust that I find disgusting,vile and reprehensible.
Other then that I agree with the rest of his statement. I believe in freedom of expression and do not think people should be going to jail or prison for Holocaust denial.

I believe that my opinion regarding the Holocaust would be considered as a defender (or believer) by most. I think a few might consider my normal skepticism to amount to denial.

To use the term Half-a-Caust you have to feel that the amount of doubt you have regarding the basic facts(i.e. numbers killed, manner killed,etc.) makes you believe that you no longer consider the events involved to "rise" to the level of a Holocaust.

Duane's seemingly tossing this word into an otherwise reasonable statement is exactly why I don't agree with it.

So since I've now been foolish enough to have brought up Duane's last line will you answer the question yourself at last?
After all, you endorsed him do you agree with him?

Yes. How on earth did this cretin ever get to being an associate of anything? This teaching skills are none existant

I wonder if this provokes ratcatcher2 to do a "deeper examination" of the Nazi policy to systematically exterminate Jews.

Anything connected with true history interests me. Your brethren would wish to return the days of the Inquisition when ALL were required to believe in a narrow version of some god. What chance would I have then, when I doesn't believe in any?

At least then it was a question of faith, not fact. Now the WW2 holocaust has been elevated to a status the equal of faith and using the Inquisition means of today. Gitmo next? As [url=http://ww...

Yes. How on earth did this cretin ever get to being an associate of anything? This teaching skills are none existant

I wonder if this provokes ratcatcher2 to do a "deeper examination" of the Nazi policy to systematically exterminate Jews.

Anything connected with true history interests me. Your brethren would wish to return the days of the Inquisition when ALL were required to believe in a narrow version of some god. What chance would I have then, when I doesn't believe in any?

At least then it was a question of faith, not fact. Now the WW2 holocaust has been elevated to a status the equal of faith and using the Inquisition means of today. Gitmo next? As Ken said

Not “about” six million, not 5.9 million, no no, exactly six million.

the Polish government revised the death toll at Auschwitz downward from 4 million to about 1.5 million

your

This would relevant only if you could find a death toll that said Auschwitz was responsible for 4 of the 6 million Jews killed.

shows your total lack of mathematical abilities and teaching skills. Should it have been 8.5M first or 4.5m now? Maths were my forte but surely even you can see that 6m CANNOT be right both ways!!!

Can this all be so weak or is it the pair of cretins that have been sent into bowl. Find some heavy weights or I, like Apgalea, will refuse to continue kicking your asses. I'm no sadist even if masochism is your prefered role.

I ask again: has anyone ever said that 4 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz? So long as you rely on "Ken" you cannot know even that. Maybe the Polish government was overestimating the number of non-Jews killed at Auschwitz (former communist regimes were very likely to downplay the fact that the Nazis targeted Jews and pretended that the Nazis treated everyone equally badly).

You want to assume that before 1990, people were including the Polish govt's 4 million estimate in the 6 million tally. And after 1990, after the Polish govt allegedly revised downward the Auschwitz death toll, somehow, someone fiddled with the numbers so that the 6 million total was maintained. You have ...

I ask again: has anyone ever said that 4 million Jews were killed at Auschwitz? So long as you rely on "Ken" you cannot know even that. Maybe the Polish government was overestimating the number of non-Jews killed at Auschwitz (former communist regimes were very likely to downplay the fact that the Nazis targeted Jews and pretended that the Nazis treated everyone equally badly).

You want to assume that before 1990, people were including the Polish govt's 4 million estimate in the 6 million tally. And after 1990, after the Polish govt allegedly revised downward the Auschwitz death toll, somehow, someone fiddled with the numbers so that the 6 million total was maintained. You have not even come close to demonstrating this. You need to show that before 1990, historians saying 6 million Jews were killed were including 4 million deaths at Auschwitz.

I still note you have not addressed the eyewitness testimony regarding the Holocaust.

Again

Can this all be so weak or is it the pair of cretins that have been sent into bowl. Find some heavy weights or I, like Apgalea, will refuse to continue kicking your asses. I'm no sadist even if masochism is your prefered role.

Please, this is not a word game nor do I intend debating the number on angles on a pin head, particularly with such light weights.

I concerned that you find it so funny, which confirms that you know that's all a joke. Thankfully, I'm not part of your ploy. Saving future Gazan's kids lives from your murdering brethren is more important now. Thankfully not all the [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm]IDF relish murderin[b]...

Again

Can this all be so weak or is it the pair of cretins that have been sent into bowl. Find some heavy weights or I, like Apgalea, will refuse to continue kicking your asses. I'm no sadist even if masochism is your prefered role.

Please, this is not a word game nor do I intend debating the number on angles on a pin head, particularly with such light weights.

I concerned that you find it so funny, which confirms that you know that's all a joke. Thankfully, I'm not part of your ploy. Saving future Gazan's kids lives from your murdering brethren is more important now. Thankfully not all the IDF relish murdering defenceless kids. How clean are your hands? How much financial support do you supply to the Gazan holocaust?

John Mackie's opinion in part ..

The gas chambers narrative is the sine qua non of the official narrative. And I DON’T BUY IT. the more I read about the entirely circumstantial evidence for gas chambers the LESS I believe it. And I’ve been reading up on it - both sides, ever since such materials were easily obtained in the public domain that is the internet.

Like many I was brought up on a non-stop diet of Auchswitz, cattle trucks, strip, shower, cremation etc. And pictures of emaciated bodies in shallow graves were supposed to be proof of that crime. But of course they were ...

John Mackie's opinion in part ..

The gas chambers narrative is the sine qua non of the official narrative. And I DON’T BUY IT. the more I read about the entirely circumstantial evidence for gas chambers the LESS I believe it. And I’ve been reading up on it - both sides, ever since such materials were easily obtained in the public domain that is the internet.

Like many I was brought up on a non-stop diet of Auchswitz, cattle trucks, strip, shower, cremation etc. And pictures of emaciated bodies in shallow graves were supposed to be proof of that crime. But of course they were nothing of the sort. They were bodies of people who have starved to death. At the end of the war. When the whole infrastructure in Germany was bombed to pieces.

There is as much circumstantial evidence that they were not ‘extermination camps’ but a combination of internment and work camps. As far as I am still (open-mindedly) willing to grant the gassing story is the possibility that some experimentation with gassing might have been carried out.

Much of the story might IMHO have sprung from the Jewish fear and dislike of cremation as opposed to burial. And hence the myth branding as a ‘Holocaust’ as opposed to any other generic branding of the many ways in which several hundred thousand Jews were killed. Dying in camps of disease, being shot as partisans by the Einsatzgruppen, camp revolts, etc. No more IMHO…. and yes, all very regrettable, but NOTHING in comparison to the numbers of deaths inflicted on the Ukrainians by Jewish Communist operators….

Isn't that interesting?

What is interesting is John Mackie's obliviousness to logic.

Like many I was brought up on a non-stop diet of Auchswitz, cattle trucks, strip, shower, cremation etc. And pictures of emaciated bodies in shallow graves were supposed to be proof of that crime.

Uh, who ever said that emaciated bodies in shallow graves were proof of cremation? Does Mackie know that when you cremate a body you do not bury it? Do you know that?

Is Mackie aware that the Nazis ran both extermination camps and concentration camps, where Jews (+ others) were enslaved and starved? Is Mackie aware that Jews were starved in the Nazi-run ghettos (until the ghettos were cleared and Jews we...

What is interesting is John Mackie's obliviousness to logic.

Like many I was brought up on a non-stop diet of Auchswitz, cattle trucks, strip, shower, cremation etc. And pictures of emaciated bodies in shallow graves were supposed to be proof of that crime.

Uh, who ever said that emaciated bodies in shallow graves were proof of cremation? Does Mackie know that when you cremate a body you do not bury it? Do you know that?

Is Mackie aware that the Nazis ran both extermination camps and concentration camps, where Jews (+ others) were enslaved and starved? Is Mackie aware that Jews were starved in the Nazi-run ghettos (until the ghettos were cleared and Jews were sent to be enslaved and/or exterminated)?

There is as much circumstantial evidence that they were not ‘extermination camps’ but a combination of internment and work camps.

Mackie is clearly unaware--or is deliberately neglecting--the eyewitness testimony of the operation of the gas chambers by both perpetrators and victims.

being shot as partisans by the Einsatzgruppen,

Wrong. Read Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning, which is based on the testimony of German policemen sent to Poland. Towards the end of the war they were ordered to go into Polish forests on "Jew hunts". The SS and the Reserve Policemen shot people not only because they were partisans, but because they were Jewish. Being Jewish was a sufficient cause to be shot in cold blood by the policement, the SS, and the Eastern European Hiwi auxillaries enslaved by the Nazis.

Still waiting for you to address the eyewitness testimony. Or will you just be content to regurgitate unsourced "facts" and illogical arguments made by commentators "Ken" and "Steve" ? If so, then clearly you are not interested in a dispassionate view of the evidence.