Rat, first of all the Koran specifically calls for the murder of infidels (a fairly loose term). So "radicals" are really just following what they believe their religion is telling them to do. Second, Islam (and any other religious institution) is basically what the people are. If the leaders of that religion are calling for the murder of innocent people by the most extreme means, simply because those people are not Muslim, I really don't know what to say. Third, what about the Darfur conflict (and quite a few other major conflicts on the continent of Africa)? Haven't you heard the atrocities being inflicted upon certain ethnic minorites (even some who are muslim themselves??!) I fully reali...

Rat, first of all the Koran specifically calls for the murder of infidels (a fairly loose term). So "radicals" are really just following what they believe their religion is telling them to do. Second, Islam (and any other religious institution) is basically what the people are. If the leaders of that religion are calling for the murder of innocent people by the most extreme means, simply because those people are not Muslim, I really don't know what to say. Third, what about the Darfur conflict (and quite a few other major conflicts on the continent of Africa)? Haven't you heard the atrocities being inflicted upon certain ethnic minorites (even some who are muslim themselves??!) I fully realize that there is a traditional side to Islam, and that there are plenty of good, well meaning people who practice it, but to call Islam "a religion of peace" is nothing short of absurd. But that's my opinion of the religion, it has nothing to do with the personal individuals.

Rat, you're talking about Catholicism. At the same time they were conquering the Americas they were slaughtering "heretics" for seperating from their church! I certainly don't support that. But they were wrong, and even now they admit they're wrong. Their actions had nothing to do with the Bible, they don't even claim the Bible as the sole authority. They claim their Pope as sole authority, and he can say whatever he wants. As for the "muslim world" expanding the arts, I highly doubt you can attribute any of that to Islam! It was an Arabic (and I believe after that an Ottomon) empire you're talking about. Again, the Bible does not call for the murder of "infidels", and no modern day Christia...

Rat, you're talking about Catholicism. At the same time they were conquering the Americas they were slaughtering "heretics" for seperating from their church! I certainly don't support that. But they were wrong, and even now they admit they're wrong. Their actions had nothing to do with the Bible, they don't even claim the Bible as the sole authority. They claim their Pope as sole authority, and he can say whatever he wants. As for the "muslim world" expanding the arts, I highly doubt you can attribute any of that to Islam! It was an Arabic (and I believe after that an Ottomon) empire you're talking about. Again, the Bible does not call for the murder of "infidels", and no modern day Christian leader calls for suicide bombings against the "heathen"!

As a Catholic I can tell you that we claim the word of God as sole authority, the Pope is merely his standing in the mortal realm, his mouthpiece if you will. The atrocities during the War of Religion where conducted by both sides, Hindu extremist regularly attack mosques and burns entire towns dominated by Muslims (followers of the Prophet), KKK call themselves "Christian Knights", some call for the killing of doctors that perform abortions, and you even have a group of extremist (among them Tony Perkins) in the U.S. that believe:

“And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them throu...

As a Catholic I can tell you that we claim the word of God as sole authority, the Pope is merely his standing in the mortal realm, his mouthpiece if you will. The atrocities during the War of Religion where conducted by both sides, Hindu extremist regularly attack mosques and burns entire towns dominated by Muslims (followers of the Prophet), KKK call themselves "Christian Knights", some call for the killing of doctors that perform abortions, and you even have a group of extremist (among them Tony Perkins) in the U.S. that believe:

“And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.”
Numbers 25

They call themselves the Phineas Priest, as followers of Phineas who struck down those who would sin for among other things marrying outside of their sect.

My point is that instead of blaming a religion, or any religion, lets look at the political, social and economic reasons that sustain such ideologies. Religion, any religion only serves as a tool to justify these actions, so blaming all adherents of said religion does not work.

Can you cite me the meaning of Infidel from Koran, and while you at it, also cite me the reference to their murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel

Infidel (literally "one without faith") is an English word meaning "one who doubts or rejects central tenets of a religion or has no religious beliefs


I was going by this definiton, but the article also states this:

"Kafir" has also come to be regarded as offensive, thus Muslim scholars discourage its usage due to the Quran's command to use kind words. It is even a punishable offense to use this term against a Jew or a Christian, under Islamic law.[u] [i]Some Muslim extremists today how[b]...

read more»

Can you cite me the meaning of Infidel from Koran, and while you at it, also cite me the reference to their murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel

Infidel (literally "one without faith") is an English word meaning "one who doubts or rejects central tenets of a religion or has no religious beliefs


I was going by this definiton, but the article also states this:

"Kafir" has also come to be regarded as offensive, thus Muslim scholars discourage its usage due to the Quran's command to use kind words. It is even a punishable offense to use this term against a Jew or a Christian, under Islamic law. Some Muslim extremists today however use the term in reference to all non-Muslims.

I was under the impression that the Koran (or is it Quran??) used the word infidel, but maybe it doesn't. I'll have to do some research to be certain. But we were comparing both Bible/Quran and Christian/Islamic leadership. I still haven't seen modern day Christian leader call for the murder of anyone, and especially not suicide bombings. I have, however, seen Islamic leadership do just that. Do a search on the atrocities commited by adherents of Islam, it's quite staggering.

It is ridiculous of you to suggest that God would call for anyone's murder. Have you seen God speaking to any human and seeking a murder? You must be kidding yourself with such ridiculous thoughts.

I have not implied nor said any such thing. I have been comparing the religions, I have never claimed that God (or gods) came down and told anyone to do anything. I have simply looked at the leadership and the writings.

(btw, what is Muslim God?)

I do not believe the two are the same, I know some do but I believe they are mistaken.

I have not come across any religion, I mean any religion, which would call for the murder of anyone.

Then I would have to ask you

@jmjoness, to the extent that the Koran contains draconian and intolerant element, I imagine that Islamic scholars could go through similar contortions as you do regarding the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. To most people, it should be evident that comparing the inherent worth of religions on the basis of their scripture is a futile exercise.

You give away the game in the 15th comment. Anything good associated with Islam is not really "Islamic"--the good stuff is really "Arabic" or "Ottoman Turkish". Anything bad associated with Christendom is not really Christian--its "Catholic". ( I assume that you would scoff at the argument that all of the good things associated with Christianity a...

@jmjoness, to the extent that the Koran contains draconian and intolerant element, I imagine that Islamic scholars could go through similar contortions as you do regarding the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. To most people, it should be evident that comparing the inherent worth of religions on the basis of their scripture is a futile exercise.

You give away the game in the 15th comment. Anything good associated with Islam is not really "Islamic"--the good stuff is really "Arabic" or "Ottoman Turkish". Anything bad associated with Christendom is not really Christian--its "Catholic". ( I assume that you would scoff at the argument that all of the good things associated with Christianity aren't really Christian, just "European"). It's a tautology. If it is Islamic, it is not good. If it is good, it must not be Islamic (or it is Islamic by accident only).

It makes more sense to look at variation within religions, across time and place, as arifsali is proposing. That allows one to identify specific problems without resorting to what I think are clearly indefensible positions that Islam is inherently more barbaric than other religions.

I imagine that Islamic scholars could go through similar contortions as you do regarding the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible.

Contortions? Well if you consider reading a text within its context to be a "contortion", then I suppose you're right.

Anything good associated with Islam is not really "Islamic"--the good stuff is really "Arabic" or "Ottoman Turkish".

JK I'm looking at the religion. I'm looking at the adherents, and the leaders, of that religion. I see nothing, past or present, that can be attributed to Islam that can be construed as "good". If you can name anything directly connected with the teaching of Islam that could be construed as "good", or at lea...

I imagine that Islamic scholars could go through similar contortions as you do regarding the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible.

Contortions? Well if you consider reading a text within its context to be a "contortion", then I suppose you're right.

Anything good associated with Islam is not really "Islamic"--the good stuff is really "Arabic" or "Ottoman Turkish".

JK I'm looking at the religion. I'm looking at the adherents, and the leaders, of that religion. I see nothing, past or present, that can be attributed to Islam that can be construed as "good". If you can name anything directly connected with the teaching of Islam that could be construed as "good", or at least "helpful", I would love to hear it.

Anything bad associated with Christendom is not really Christian--its
"Catholic".

JK, your ignorance of Christianity is the problem. You cannot simply take Christianity and draw a casual link to Islam, to do so is extremely absurd and ignorant. First of all, the term 'Christian' is a broad and lax term. There are many different types of Christians, many different denominations, and many different sects. Islam, on the other hand, has I believe a grand total of two, and they're not even different sects, they're more like different branches. So when you say "Christian" you have to be specific. Also, you have to realize the difference between "organized religion" and true Biblical belief. For example, Catholicism is a religion that has fallen outside of true Biblical belief many times throughout its long history. I personally reject organized religion, because I believe it's a sham. I guess you could call me an "independent believer". Now, am I saying that nothing bad has ever been commited by a Chritian, or a believer? No, I'm not! I am saying that no Christian has been seen or heard calling for the murder of innocent people! They have not called for suicide bombings! The Bible does not cal for these things either! On the oth

( I assume that you would scoff at the argument that all of the good things associated with Christianity aren't really Christian, just "European")

I believe a lot of good things have come from the moral teachings of the Bible. The Judeo-Christian ethic, the basic understanding of right and wrong, punishment under the law, etc etc.. On the other hand, what has Islam done? The first thing I think of when I consider Islam and the state is Saudi Arabia. Women are required to wear clothing that literally covers their entire body. All people are required to pray in the mosques when the government requires it (this means that if the government calls for prayer time police literally p...

( I assume that you would scoff at the argument that all of the good things associated with Christianity aren't really Christian, just "European")

I believe a lot of good things have come from the moral teachings of the Bible. The Judeo-Christian ethic, the basic understanding of right and wrong, punishment under the law, etc etc.. On the other hand, what has Islam done? The first thing I think of when I consider Islam and the state is Saudi Arabia. Women are required to wear clothing that literally covers their entire body. All people are required to pray in the mosques when the government requires it (this means that if the government calls for prayer time police literally pull people off of the streets and into a mosque). Now, I certainly don't believe that all good things in Europe were associated with Christianity. Science wasn't. The arts weren't. These things had nothing to do with Christian or Biblical beliefs, just as Islam had nothing to do with them in the Arab or Ottomon cultures.

That allows one to identify specific problems without resorting to what I think are clearly indefensible positions that Islam is inherently more barbaric than other religions.

A religion is only what the people adhering to it make it to be. If the leaders of a certain religion are calling for murder, if the adhrents are committing atrocities and outright barbaric acts, if Islam is used as a politcal movement (like in Saudi Arabia) to bring about one of the most closed societies on the face of the planet, then I think I can label it as inherently barbaric. If that is to change, the people must change. Now, is that the same with all religions? No. Buddhist monks don't call for m...

That allows one to identify specific problems without resorting to what I think are clearly indefensible positions that Islam is inherently more barbaric than other religions.

A religion is only what the people adhering to it make it to be. If the leaders of a certain religion are calling for murder, if the adhrents are committing atrocities and outright barbaric acts, if Islam is used as a politcal movement (like in Saudi Arabia) to bring about one of the most closed societies on the face of the planet, then I think I can label it as inherently barbaric. If that is to change, the people must change. Now, is that the same with all religions? No. Buddhist monks don't call for murder. They don't call for hate. They don't commit barbaric acts or atrocities. As a believer I don't believe they are right, but at the same time they have the right to believe as they want, as long as it doesn't hurt them or others.

I believe a lot of good things have come from the moral teachings of the Bible. The Judeo-Christian ethic, punishment under the law, etc etc..

This is exactly what I mean. The Bible is good because it teaches ethics. What? The Bible also prescribes death for trivial offenses? Oh, it's just an outdated covenant. But the good stuff still applies (presumably laws we agree with, such as "don't kill", are NOT part of that outdated covenant). That is what I mean by contortions.

It is great you advocate reading the Bible "in context"--something I agree with--but I don't like that you pass yourself off as making an informed judgment about Islam while making no attempt to make ...

I believe a lot of good things have come from the moral teachings of the Bible. The Judeo-Christian ethic, punishment under the law, etc etc..

This is exactly what I mean. The Bible is good because it teaches ethics. What? The Bible also prescribes death for trivial offenses? Oh, it's just an outdated covenant. But the good stuff still applies (presumably laws we agree with, such as "don't kill", are NOT part of that outdated covenant). That is what I mean by contortions.

It is great you advocate reading the Bible "in context"--something I agree with--but I don't like that you pass yourself off as making an informed judgment about Islam while making no attempt to make a similarly contextual reading of the Quran.

I have no interest in defending Islam or trashing Judaism and Christianity. These faiths have a long history and have many followers. Each religion has enough fodder, in all of its diversity--past and present--to support claims that "religion X stinks" and "religion Y is great". You will see what you want to see in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.

It is great you advocate reading the Bible "in context"--something I agree with--but I don't like that you pass yourself off as making an informed judgment about Islam while making no attempt to make a similarly contextual reading of the Quran.

JK, I've tried reading it, have you?? In fact I'm looking at an online version of it right now! As far as I'm concerned the Bible is a superior text to the Koran. It has a longer history (writing on the first book of the old testament began approx. 4000 bc), it was written at the time (unlinke the Koran, which was written from the present looking back, assuming it even records any history). I have done my research, and I have found it l...

It is great you advocate reading the Bible "in context"--something I agree with--but I don't like that you pass yourself off as making an informed judgment about Islam while making no attempt to make a similarly contextual reading of the Quran.

JK, I've tried reading it, have you?? In fact I'm looking at an online version of it right now! As far as I'm concerned the Bible is a superior text to the Koran. It has a longer history (writing on the first book of the old testament began approx. 4000 bc), it was written at the time (unlinke the Koran, which was written from the present looking back, assuming it even records any history). I have done my research, and I have found it lacking. And again, there's the case of leadership. The problem is you think I'm being biased, and I'm not. I have not made a false claim about Islam yet, or at least you don't SEEM to be disputing that.

This is exactly what I mean. The Bible is good because it teaches
ethics. What? The Bible also prescribes death for trivial offenses? Oh,
it's just an outdated covenant. But the good stuff still applies.

Again, this is exactly what I mean! You say that you advocate contextual reading, yet you don't even realize what context you're talking about! Now you're comparing punishments rendered after breaking a law (and they might seem trivial to you, again because you're not considering the context they were written in) to the law (ethics and morals) itself! Now, do you want me to admit that the Bible is not an ideal piece of literature? Certainly! The Bible could for one thing have more clarity, it's extremely vague! It could have been written with the context more distinguishable (as to avoid common misreadings)! But if you want me to say that the Bible should be discredited because of ancient laws that only applied to a certain people who lived many years ago, I will not. That would be paramount to discrediting science for claims that scientists made many years ago!

JK, I've tried reading it, have you?? I

I meant context more broadly, not just in terms of the whole document, but in terms of the historical setting, understanding the conditions and culture of the people writing the book. I think that is the best way to approach ancient scriptures.

Now you're comparing punishments rendered after breaking a law (and they might seem trivial to you, again because you're not considering the context they were written in) to the law (ethics and morals) itself!

Look at the offenses the Bible prescribes death for. That would suggest that the Bible considers those offenses to be grave ones. Cussing out your parents is on the same...

JK, I've tried reading it, have you?? I

I meant context more broadly, not just in terms of the whole document, but in terms of the historical setting, understanding the conditions and culture of the people writing the book. I think that is the best way to approach ancient scriptures.

Now you're comparing punishments rendered after breaking a law (and they might seem trivial to you, again because you're not considering the context they were written in) to the law (ethics and morals) itself!

Look at the offenses the Bible prescribes death for. That would suggest that the Bible considers those offenses to be grave ones. Cussing out your parents is on the same level as killing someone. That is the law laid down in the Torah. All I am saying is that you appear to be praising the Bible for its ethics, things like "don't kill" but you write off the "cuss out your parents and die" part as being outdated (no kidding). You are picking and choosing the parts that suit your preconceived ideas. You stack the best of the Bible (the ethics that still stand up after thousands of years) against the worst of the Koran (an alleged "kill infidels" sentiment that I am sure was fairly common then).

I was under the impression that the Koran (or is it Quran??) used the word infidel, but maybe it doesn't.jmjoness

I asked for you to cite me Quran, you ended up citing Wikipedia. Anyway, let's assume Qu'ran uses the term infidel to define....atheists?? Does it asks people to kill them wherever they're spotted? What's your logic here? You also said there are atrocities committed by Islamic leadership (you need to prove according to who's authority?), so tell me when is the last time you saw/heard a news on CNN or FOX where a Islamic leader killed or committed atrocities against atheists? Last I see, bunch of thugs and murderers killed their own people in Pakistan accusi...

I was under the impression that the Koran (or is it Quran??) used the word infidel, but maybe it doesn't.jmjoness

I asked for you to cite me Quran, you ended up citing Wikipedia. Anyway, let's assume Qu'ran uses the term infidel to define....atheists?? Does it asks people to kill them wherever they're spotted? What's your logic here? You also said there are atrocities committed by Islamic leadership (you need to prove according to who's authority?), so tell me when is the last time you saw/heard a news on CNN or FOX where a Islamic leader killed or committed atrocities against atheists? Last I see, bunch of thugs and murderers killed their own people in Pakistan accusing them for spying for America. Where's Islamic leadership in this and where's Qur'an in this?

As things stand, there is no temporal leader in Islam. Prophet was the
last temporal and spiritual leader which is unlike Christianity you
treat Pope as leader. So when you say Islamic leadership calling for
the murder of infidel, you have to understand that these are murderers
and thugs, not Islamic leaders. How difficult is it to make this
distinction?

First of all, how many times do I have to say this? Christianity is not just one, broad "religion". It is a group of different religions and beliefs. The Catholics look to the Pope as their spiritual leader. I personally do not hold Catholicism in any greater light then I do Islam, in fact I (and many other Christians like m...

As things stand, there is no temporal leader in Islam. Prophet was the
last temporal and spiritual leader which is unlike Christianity you
treat Pope as leader. So when you say Islamic leadership calling for
the murder of infidel, you have to understand that these are murderers
and thugs, not Islamic leaders. How difficult is it to make this
distinction?

First of all, how many times do I have to say this? Christianity is not just one, broad "religion". It is a group of different religions and beliefs. The Catholics look to the Pope as their spiritual leader. I personally do not hold Catholicism in any greater light then I do Islam, in fact I (and many other Christians like myself) consider Catholicism and Islam both to be perversions of true scriptural teachings. You accuse me of ignorance regarding Islam, but your own ignorance of Christianity is astounding itself. You've also made a lot of other statements that I would consider terribly ignorant, but I suppose there is a level ignorance on all sides. What's important is that we learn.

Now, concerning Islam not having any leadership, that is absurd. They might not have a spiritual leadership like the Pope, or the Dalai Lama, but they certainly have other forms of leadership. I have seen many leaders (military leaders, leaders of state, muslim scholars, etc etc..) call for and even defend the murder of certain peoples. Now, if you want to say that these are just "murderers and thugs", then fine. But you'll be putting a major portion of the adherents of Islam under that category if you do. And again, if you can give me an example of anything good (and no, I will not debate with you over the meaning of the word 'good'. I think you can use your imagination) coming from Islam, I'm all ears.

First of all, how many times do I have to say this? Christianity is not just one

Thank you, I'm aware of that. I was making a point by comparing. I am also making a point that Islam is not monolithic, as Christianity is not (you'd agree). I have already learned this, you still profess to not know much about Islam, otherwise you'd see that there's a lot of good in both religion and there's a lot of commonality. You seem to be hell bent on accusing Muslims for no good anywhere, where as if you see that there's a very little we differ with (not just with Christianity but with Judaism as well).

Regardless, I can't give you sound bites here of what is good in Islam and where, ...

First of all, how many times do I have to say this? Christianity is not just one

Thank you, I'm aware of that. I was making a point by comparing. I am also making a point that Islam is not monolithic, as Christianity is not (you'd agree). I have already learned this, you still profess to not know much about Islam, otherwise you'd see that there's a lot of good in both religion and there's a lot of commonality. You seem to be hell bent on accusing Muslims for no good anywhere, where as if you see that there's a very little we differ with (not just with Christianity but with Judaism as well).

Regardless, I can't give you sound bites here of what is good in Islam and where, you have to read and read. It doesn't hurt to read about billions of people, start with Karen Armstrong, go to Richard Bulliet, I gave you a link to Burnaby Rogerson. I've read Shelby Spong, I'm reading Elaine Pagels, you do the same, don't go with sound bites and contemporary news stories, these are all political problems in the first place.

jmjoness, you're mixing religion with culture. Religion has a personal aspect to it which is called Faith, it also has another aspect which is Culture. If you do not find anything good in Islam as a civilization which spans 1400 years and billions of people, past and present (and your parallel comparison appears to be with Christian civilization and no one else) then there's nothing much I can do here in a comment or two.

I personally do not like to engage in tit-for-tat kind of conversation on the internet, and I certainly do not engage myself with people like TNT above due to same reasons, so I can only recommend to you to do some reading of Islamic history, civilization and faith. ...

jmjoness, you're mixing religion with culture. Religion has a personal aspect to it which is called Faith, it also has another aspect which is Culture. If you do not find anything good in Islam as a civilization which spans 1400 years and billions of people, past and present (and your parallel comparison appears to be with Christian civilization and no one else) then there's nothing much I can do here in a comment or two.

I personally do not like to engage in tit-for-tat kind of conversation on the internet, and I certainly do not engage myself with people like TNT above due to same reasons, so I can only recommend to you to do some reading of Islamic history, civilization and faith. You don't have to read from the adherents, rather there are tons of Western scholars who have written a lot on Islam.

Anyway, thanks for the conversation so far, keep in touch on other threads, I've been on CM for more than two years now.