Believers must project their own mindless beliefs on that of rationalists by bringing them into the fold of religion. Religion isn't hated because of any inept feelings or any shortcomings one feels towards god, as much as believers would like to convince themselves so. It is hated because of the negative influence it has on society much like addiction, slavery, or plain ignorance has.

It isn't the fictional god that is hated, it is the mind numbing system of belief that people hold onto. There are no redeeming qualities provided by religion that can not be found without it, and plenty of negative qualities that results from it.

The only arguments that believers can provide are anecdotal ...

Believers must project their own mindless beliefs on that of rationalists by bringing them into the fold of religion. Religion isn't hated because of any inept feelings or any shortcomings one feels towards god, as much as believers would like to convince themselves so. It is hated because of the negative influence it has on society much like addiction, slavery, or plain ignorance has.

It isn't the fictional god that is hated, it is the mind numbing system of belief that people hold onto. There are no redeeming qualities provided by religion that can not be found without it, and plenty of negative qualities that results from it.

The only arguments that believers can provide are anecdotal arguments, circumstantial examples, illogical stories, contextual discussions, false analogies and gap ignorance. Such a means of thinking is great for controlling what people think, but it is by no means a way of progressing mankind.

And when you look at the evidence AGAINST religion it builds up like a mountain, requiring believers develop complex excuses and twisted logic in order to maintain their beliefs in the face of it. The only people that can believe it are those that want to.

So it is a frustration that humanity will so doggedly maintain a belief under such circumstances and a hatred of the fact that people will want to believe because it fulfills a predisposed ideal of theirs rather than being based on a truth. One starts to wonder, why do people so readily maintain these myths when there is abundant evidence to disprove them and it starts to come down to the answer - because they are not challenged enough to prove the claims they make. Because they are not ridiculed enough when they choose their mythology over proven science and understanding.

And once again willhelm does nothing to promote his belief system and reverts to nothing more than ad hominem. But he is correct that believer denial and ignorance in the face of so much contradicting evidence is a bit bizarre.

My statements were more of an explanation why there is hatred to explain away your misplaced understanding. Of course you take it as a challenge rather than an opportunity to understand - as is usual in the case of believer logic. Skeptics don't hate god, they hate the ability of people to close their eyes to anything that they don't want to see.

The kicker - can I believe in god? Of course, I merely need the proper evidence. Can you disbelieve in god? THAT is a q...

And once again willhelm does nothing to promote his belief system and reverts to nothing more than ad hominem. But he is correct that believer denial and ignorance in the face of so much contradicting evidence is a bit bizarre.

My statements were more of an explanation why there is hatred to explain away your misplaced understanding. Of course you take it as a challenge rather than an opportunity to understand - as is usual in the case of believer logic. Skeptics don't hate god, they hate the ability of people to close their eyes to anything that they don't want to see.

The kicker - can I believe in god? Of course, I merely need the proper evidence. Can you disbelieve in god? THAT is a question you should think long and hard on. If the answer is "no" then who is the blind one here?

If I were to say your argument is wrong because you are an ignorant blowhard, that would be an ad hominem I suppose. I was not addressing your argument. I was addressing the fact that you are an ignorant blowhard and expressing my opinion that is based in knowledge about your abilities to understand and reason.

However, you seem to be making a case against my argument that you are an ignorant blowhard. And how do you do it? ... With ad hominems

1. "willhelm once again resorts to petty insults because he just has nothing else to argue with."
Really? How does this support the fact you are not an ignorant blowhard?

2 "willhelm offers nothing if he doesn't provide a fun ride through redefi...

If I were to say your argument is wrong because you are an ignorant blowhard, that would be an ad hominem I suppose. I was not addressing your argument. I was addressing the fact that you are an ignorant blowhard and expressing my opinion that is based in knowledge about your abilities to understand and reason.

However, you seem to be making a case against my argument that you are an ignorant blowhard. And how do you do it? ... With ad hominems

1. "willhelm once again resorts to petty insults because he just has nothing else to argue with."
Really? How does this support the fact you are not an ignorant blowhard?

2 "willhelm offers nothing if he doesn't provide a fun ride through redefinition and sleight of hand trickery to turn a discussion away from the topic!"
Really? How does this support the fact you are not an ignorant blowhard?

Never mind that your first comment begins with an ad hominem:

3. Believers must project their own mindless beliefs

See, You prove over and over and over again that you are so utterly and profoundly ill-equipped to egage. Therefore I just point out to others what you so clearly demonstrated to me over a year ago and continue to do demonstrate with this comment:

"The only arguments that believers can provide are anecdotal arguments, circumstantial examples, illogical stories, contextual discussions, false analogies and gap ignorance."

None of these items are ever used to prove the existence of God, nor do they have anything to do with the existence of God. Your comment shows such a lack of ability to discuss that I just prefer to point out to others that you aren't capable.

So, if you want have a discussion about "projecting mindless beliefs", then someone should begin with yours.

However, I will not because you are an ignorant blowhard that cannot seem to grasp the simmplest of logic, so the futility persuades me against.

Love is a chemical response and quite measurable. It can be influenced through both chemical and physical means and it is easily measured simply by watching how people interact with one another. Love can be understood through observation and experience.

Charity is easily measured as well. One can tally how much charity one gives or tally the quality of charity. There are those that spend their entire life living to help others, those that donate to a cause, and those that just ignore the plight of other people completely.

Wisdom can be measured in a variety of ways and attained in as many. Experience, knowledge, education, and observation are great influences of wisdom. You can measure peo...

Love is a chemical response and quite measurable. It can be influenced through both chemical and physical means and it is easily measured simply by watching how people interact with one another. Love can be understood through observation and experience.

Charity is easily measured as well. One can tally how much charity one gives or tally the quality of charity. There are those that spend their entire life living to help others, those that donate to a cause, and those that just ignore the plight of other people completely.

Wisdom can be measured in a variety of ways and attained in as many. Experience, knowledge, education, and observation are great influences of wisdom. You can measure people and how wisely they apply their knowledge in various given situations to determine who is more effective to lead.

We all measure our love for many things to determine our wants/needs or what is worth pursuing, avoiding, or entertaining. We all have a capacity to be charitable with our level of charity reflecting our personalities, and we all have varying levels of wisdom.

Hope can be measured as well. Some people rely on hope over action or understanding, some more so than others. Even faith can be measured and we can see who utilizes faith over understanding and knowledge. The bible describes god using faith as a measure to salvation.

All these things are human characteristics that can be measured, understood, applied, effected, interacted, altered, improved, or even damaged. They can all be measured.

To use them as an analogy against an unmeasurable god just fails.

Your view of love is superficial. There is a certain type of "love" that can be measured chemically by the amount of dopamine the brain releases. This "love" also known as eros, is a basically a self gratifying emotion. Although, a deeper kind of love, known as agape can not be measured. This love seeks the good will of the beloved over that of their own, a sacrificial type of love. This can only be accomplished by the full consent of the will, which can not be measured chemically.

Agape and charity go hand in hand. An individual can be very charitable in the sense that he gives a substantial, measurable amount but for the reason that he seeks praise from other people, which is actually un...

Your view of love is superficial. There is a certain type of "love" that can be measured chemically by the amount of dopamine the brain releases. This "love" also known as eros, is a basically a self gratifying emotion. Although, a deeper kind of love, known as agape can not be measured. This love seeks the good will of the beloved over that of their own, a sacrificial type of love. This can only be accomplished by the full consent of the will, which can not be measured chemically.

Agape and charity go hand in hand. An individual can be very charitable in the sense that he gives a substantial, measurable amount but for the reason that he seeks praise from other people, which is actually uncharitable. A person who happens to be poor, yet sacrifices aspects in their life for the sake of others cannot be measured physically. We can observe their action and become impressed by this persons zeal, but how do we measure the sacrifices unless we are that person?

Wisdom is an accumulation of all that you have mentioned yet it is also having a good sense on how to use it. A wise person has a standard to which he compares his decision making who's decision may seem foolish to another with different morals. What I may consider wise may not be for you and vise versa. Therefore, wisdom is incapable to measure scientifically.

Hope can be expressed by the persons demeanor but unmeasurable as well.

All these things should be observable but not reduced to scientific methods.

There is only one scientific method that comes to my mind, unless you had other variations you were thinking about?

You yourself stated two variations of love - eros and agape, but I'm sure other descriptive terms could be used to further help quantify and define specific values we find in people. Philia is brotherly love, or Ludas is a game playing love (such as between a knight and a princess). Storge and Pragma types of love could also be used for friendship type loves or practical kinds of love.

The very existence of these different types of love shows us that love is no unknown and unmeasurable abstract ideal but something that can be defined, categorized, and measured.

The type of...

There is only one scientific method that comes to my mind, unless you had other variations you were thinking about?

You yourself stated two variations of love - eros and agape, but I'm sure other descriptive terms could be used to further help quantify and define specific values we find in people. Philia is brotherly love, or Ludas is a game playing love (such as between a knight and a princess). Storge and Pragma types of love could also be used for friendship type loves or practical kinds of love.

The very existence of these different types of love shows us that love is no unknown and unmeasurable abstract ideal but something that can be defined, categorized, and measured.

The type of measurement would depend on what type of question you are asking. Is the question a comparison between loves or a simple query to a specific love existing in a specific group of people. Maybe a question of commonality is used, or what types of love would lead to what types of action?

I am not a learned scholar in the intricacies of love, but even my untrained mind can easily grasp the canard of unmeasurable love.

So again, these things not only exist, they can be measured, understood, and effected. Using them as an example as to how an unmeasurable, unconceivable or untouchable god could exist fails, as it always will when you try to present examples of the natural to prove the supernatural.

The very existence of these different types of love shows us that love is no unknown and unmeasurable abstract ideal but something that can be defined, categorized, and measured.

I agree that the loves are not unknowable and can be observed. They can be given and received therefore tangible. Even though they are very real, they still can not be measured.

Is the question a comparison between loves or a simple query to a specific love existing in a specific group of people. Maybe a question of commonality is used, or what types of love would lead to what types of action?

A child will say to her mother "I love you as much as an elephant". The mother does not go a...

The very existence of these different types of love shows us that love is no unknown and unmeasurable abstract ideal but something that can be defined, categorized, and measured.

I agree that the loves are not unknowable and can be observed. They can be given and received therefore tangible. Even though they are very real, they still can not be measured.

Is the question a comparison between loves or a simple query to a specific love existing in a specific group of people. Maybe a question of commonality is used, or what types of love would lead to what types of action?

A child will say to her mother "I love you as much as an elephant". The mother does not go and find out the average size and weight of the beast to figure out how big her love is. The Storge can not be measured, only understood and known. It can be comprehended and experienced but not measured like the body mass of the pachyderm.

I am not a learned scholar in the intricacies of love, but even my untrained mind can easily grasp the canard of unmeasurable love.

No one is. We know when we are loved or not by observations and actions of the lover and by "heart" felt emotions. We know true love when the lover does not require something in return by the beloved. But like you said, it is unmeasurable.

So again, these things not only exist, they can be measured, understood, and effected.

The actions of the lover towards the beloved are an expression of the love, not the measurement of the love.

The actions of the lover towards the beloved are an expression of the love, not the measurement of the love.

The very fact that people can distinguish between love and friendship and the fact of so many different kinds of love shows us that it is measurable. Just because you refuse to accept that they can be measured does not make them immeasurable.

Expression is, in itself, a measurement. What you express with one you love (lover, friend, or family member) reflects the kind of love you have and how much of that specific love you feel. You can have many lovers (sometimes even at once) in our lives and each treated differently depending on our level of trust and love. Some yo...

The actions of the lover towards the beloved are an expression of the love, not the measurement of the love.

The very fact that people can distinguish between love and friendship and the fact of so many different kinds of love shows us that it is measurable. Just because you refuse to accept that they can be measured does not make them immeasurable.

Expression is, in itself, a measurement. What you express with one you love (lover, friend, or family member) reflects the kind of love you have and how much of that specific love you feel. You can have many lovers (sometimes even at once) in our lives and each treated differently depending on our level of trust and love. Some you share things with that you don't with others. Some you put more effort in than you do with others. Some you express more.

Love is NOT something that you just state and it exists. It is maluable and requires attention and expression and the level of attention and expression that we each use is a measure of that love. It's not just something that is or is not. There are a plethora of levels and types and the pinnacle of feeling in a relationship doesn't suddenly "bing" over and become love. Love is something that start out as a mutual desire and affection and that continues to grow and change during our whole life.

It is the very fact that it IS measurable that makes love not only desirable, but reciprocal.

It is the very fact that it IS measurable that makes love not only desirable, but reciprocal.

Someone said once something like, "if love was measurable, lonely people would not be lonely."

Now let us first understand what it means to "measure". Brother Webster says that the definition of measure (as a verb) is:

1 a: to choose or control with cautious restraint b: to regulate by a standard :

2: to allot or apportion in measured amounts

3: to lay off by making measurements

4: to ascertain the measurements of

5: to estimate or appraise by a criterion

6: to travel over

7: to serve as a means of measuring

The only way I can see your argument is with definition 5. We can ...

It is the very fact that it IS measurable that makes love not only desirable, but reciprocal.

Someone said once something like, "if love was measurable, lonely people would not be lonely."

Now let us first understand what it means to "measure". Brother Webster says that the definition of measure (as a verb) is:

1 a: to choose or control with cautious restraint b: to regulate by a standard :

2: to allot or apportion in measured amounts

3: to lay off by making measurements

4: to ascertain the measurements of

5: to estimate or appraise by a criterion

6: to travel over

7: to serve as a means of measuring

The only way I can see your argument is with definition 5. We can estimate and appraise someone's love, by observation compared to a criteria or a standard. Now by what standard can we use to compare love?

I think you limit your definition. Each one of those definitions apply in different situations. You keep bandying about the word "measure" as if you have a specific measurement system in mind. The numerous methods of measuring are as varied as what can be measured.

Love is measurable. It can be controlled, it can be focused, it can be free, it can be maintained, it can be grown, developed, cherished, fresh, old, dry, etc etc etc. The very ability to define it under different descriptions opens it up to measurement.

You want a standard? There is no standard yet developed. Perhaps you would be interested in developing one? Prior to the pound things were weight in a variety of ways that had n...

I think you limit your definition. Each one of those definitions apply in different situations. You keep bandying about the word "measure" as if you have a specific measurement system in mind. The numerous methods of measuring are as varied as what can be measured.

Love is measurable. It can be controlled, it can be focused, it can be free, it can be maintained, it can be grown, developed, cherished, fresh, old, dry, etc etc etc. The very ability to define it under different descriptions opens it up to measurement.

You want a standard? There is no standard yet developed. Perhaps you would be interested in developing one? Prior to the pound things were weight in a variety of ways that had no standard, but for convenience and fairness in trade a standard was developed.

A few sensible standards could be trust, devotion and sacrifice. But not all love warrents full trust, devotion or sacrifice. It can grow to a level of fullness in trust, devotion, or sacrifice, but it is not immediatly deserved of such. It's measure is taken with time and experience.