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3-2-2007 10:02 PM11239 views
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3-3-2007 1:03 AM
pkronfield
Our casualties in this Iraq campaign have been extraordinarily light. I wonder how many Hajji's we've greased. I would bet at least 4 times our casualties, if not more. Each of those is one less terrorist who might be commandeering an aircraft or planning a dirty bomb in our homeland. Iraq is a great killing ground for Islamofascists.
3-3-2007 1:17 AM
Yasir
Sorry pkronfield, but it is shameful how people like you drag the religion in everything. and u call the Muslims extremist. Read ur comment above and u will get to know who is extremist.

This clip from wilhelm was purely based on facts and I really admire it. A good comparison on top of all.
3-3-2007 1:19 AM
n2sooners
Still waiting for some lefty to pop in here and remind everyone that Clinton isn't in office anymore. That's generally what they do when there is a comparison to Clinton they can't refute.
3-3-2007 1:43 AM
BobbyRutan
Not refuting anything, I just want to know how the numbers are calculated. Are we to assume that total military deaths have been fewer during the Bush Administration?

For those numbers to be truly representative shouldn't the deaths in Iraq be added to all other military deaths and then compared with the Clinton numbers? Just a question since Willhelm posted a comment about statistics being the tool of liars.

Don't forget the 20,000+ soldiers wounded.
3-3-2007 2:20 AM
WiredRyo
Don't forget the 57000 killed people on the other side. They are humans just like the US-Soldiers.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
3-3-2007 2:24 AM
n2sooners
And lets not forget the 40k+ people who die on the highways every single year. If we just pull out from the American highways we could save far more lives than pulling out of Iraq. Not to mention that all of us that can't afford to fly everywhere would drastically reduce our carbon footprints.
3-3-2007 2:29 AM
Yasir
I m not sure of one thing from clip, what does 4,417 Military deaths represent during peace time.
1) Are these figures from battles?
or 2) During some peacekeeping mission for UN?
Or Something else

I m really confused about the nature of deaths during Clinton period when there was no direct War going on involving US.
3-3-2007 5:51 AM
cyberphysio
whatever,whenever, wherever -- dead is dead....war or non war,loss is a loss... these figures shows American govt ideology for global dominance. so called second world n third world countries should unite..
3-3-2007 6:48 AM
jklugman
BobbyRutan is right. The article in the clip is totally bogus.

From Tim Grieve's War Room blog at Salon:

In fact, when you look at the data provided by the Defense Department, you'll notice that almost none of the deaths during the Clinton administration -- just 76 over an eight-year period -- were from hostile action or terrorism. The rest were the result of accident, homicide, illness or suicide or were of an as-yet-undetermined nature.

These noncombat deaths have not simply stopped happening. There are still noncombat deaths going on in the military, and they are, for the most part, kept as...
3-3-2007 10:15 AM
quickstar
i wonder how many of those clinton-era military deaths were the result of gulf-war syndrome from the first gulf war, where bush the first approved the use of depleted uranium munitions... thousands of veterans from that war have died in the years since then. of course, clinton was no saint, he used them in kosovo, 1999. and now we are using them again, in munitions, and the very armor that is supposed to be protecting our soldiers. this stuff is radioactive waste, and the death toll for this war is likely to rise long after the last shot is fired.

for those posters that laud the death of the "hajjis", you are bigoted jerk-offs. sorry, i can't think of a more diplomatic way of putting that.
3-3-2007 12:15 PM
curtgranger
This war is stupid, a waste of a ton of money that could have been spent on Americans, and no comparison of numbers will ever justify it. Bush IS responsible for the dead Americans in Iraq, because he started an illegal war. To compare statistics does not accomplish a thing.
3-3-2007 12:18 PM
bferman
The figures Willhelm clipped do not represent veterans at all.

We are at war and as a result there will of course be causalities. The point of the clip is that we should to put things into perspective. The media has made this war seem far more deadly for American troops than it has been.
For comparison... "World War II killed more people, involved more nations, and cost more money than any other war in history. Altogether, 70 million people served in the armed forces during the war and 17 million combatants died. Civilian deaths were ever greater. At least 19 million Soviet civilians, 10 million Chinese, and 6 million European Jews lost their lives during the war. All of this in just a s...
3-3-2007 12:39 PM
always_resist
is this true?
3-3-2007 2:09 PM
Cathal Drake
NOTE: OFF-SUBJECT

Just a little note to wonder why some people get really upset when somebody says "hajji"? It simply refers to someone who's made the Hajj, the pilgrimage to Mecca. In usage among Iraqis it's like saying "sir," or "respected man," I would compare it to "seƱor" in Spanish.
3-4-2007 11:29 AM
willhelm
In fact, when you look at the data provided by the Defense Department,
you'll notice that almost none of the deaths during the Clinton
administration -- just 76 over an eight-year period -- were from
hostile action or terrorism. The rest were the result of accident,
homicide, illness or suicide or were of an as-yet-undetermined nature.
JK, once again you demonstrate your abject reasoning skills. Your link actually validates my clip. It is not about the number of deaths in military combat. It IS about military deaths. These numbers come from the Dept. Of Defense.
3-4-2007 6:19 PM
BobbyRutan
Good discussion of these "statistics" at Media Matters - Link

http://mediamatters.org/items/200702230005
3-4-2007 6:51 PM
n2sooners
Hehe, good discussion and Media Matters in the same sentence.
3-4-2007 11:09 PM
BobbyRutan
Bottom Line:

In fact, military deaths have increased year-over-year since Bush first took office in 2001 -- both in raw terms and as a percentage of the total number serving -- and have increased dramatically since the beginning of the Iraq war.

As indicated by the table below, which was reconstructed from figures provided by the Department of Defense, the rate of U.S. military personnel lost per 100,000 serving rose significantly under Bush, from a low point of 50.0 in 2000, Clinton's last full year in office, to 110.2 during 2004. Additionally, the total number of deaths under Bush is not, as Colon's misleading comparison suggested, 3,133 versus 4,417 under Clinton's first term. The numb...
3-5-2007 1:07 PM
kmcolo
JK, you miss the point. It is all about absolutist concepts. As soon as you argue things like details and underlying facts, well that's just so much mumbo-jumbo. There are no facts in willhelms world, just ideas to spin.
3-5-2007 1:54 PM
willhelm
The only problem with your comment is JK was arguing for absolutist concepts and I was arguing details and underlying facts. Which means spin is impossible on my behalf and necessary on your behalf.
3-6-2007 3:37 PM
BobbyRutan
You spin me right round, baby
right round like a record, baby
Right round round round
You spin me right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round round round
3-6-2007 5:10 PM
jklugman
If there are any readers other than Willhelm who think it is OK to compare the number of soldiers killed in the second Iraq war to the number of all soldiers killed during the first term of the Clinton administration please speak up and we can have a respectful conversation. I would be happy to explain my view that this is not a legitimate comparison with individuals who are truly interested in exchanging views.
3-6-2007 6:40 PM
willhelm
The point JK, which you are missing, is # of deaths. We are not comparing the circumstances of the death. It is not about legitimate or illegitimate comparisons. It is simply a point about 2 things 1. the deterioration of military equipment under Bush 41 and Clinton which decreased training and readiness, which led to so many non-war deaths under Clinton. 2. The deaths resulting during the Iraq War should be expected to a certain extent and still fall short of the deaths under Clinton.

But to be clear, I think Bush 41 is as much responsible, if not more, for the number of deaths under Clinton.

To you this is about POLITICS, just like everything seems to be with you. So you ...
3-6-2007 7:10 PM
jklugman
the deterioration of military equipment under Bush 41 and Clinton which decreased training and readiness, which led to so many non-war deaths under Clinton.
This is not correct. As this data shows (taken from this table), the rate of military deaths was declining throughout the 1980s AND 1990s, from Reagan through Bush I through Clinton. It spiked a little when we invaded Afghanistan, but after we invaded Iraq it jumped up quite a bit, and for the whole 1980-2004 period the death rate was at its highest in 2004. This is the comparison the author of the source material in this clip doesn't want to ma...
3-6-2007 7:38 PM
willhelm
I don't know what your point is in highlighting this quote. If you are saying accidents decreased, I would agree. That is because # of troops, training and exercises, and equipment upkeep were all drastically decreased, thereby hurting readiness. But, other than that I do know the point of your chart.

Clinton: 8035
Bush 5187
3-6-2007 7:56 PM
BobbyRutan
It's no wonder Willhelm can understand. He doesn't do math very well. He totaled nine years for Clinton's term 1992 - 2000. Should have done 1993 - 2000. But still that's comparing 8 years to 4 years. This is rather silly. It's easy math.

As was stated before -

As indicated by the table below, which was reconstructed from figures provided by the Department of Defense, the rate of U.S. military personnel lost per 100,000 serving rose significantly under Bush, from a low point of 50.0 in 2000, Clinton's last full year in office, to 110.2 during 2004. Additionally, the total number of deaths under Bush is not, as Colon's misleading comparison suggested, 3,133 versus 4,417 under Clinton's fir...
3-6-2007 8:07 PM
willhelm
You guys are missing the point. I'll leave the 2 of you to have your hate-wing orgy.
3-6-2007 8:42 PM
BobbyRutan
Awwwhhh.....shucks!
5-24-2007 7:36 PM
jklugman
Updates to the table:

2003 - 0.86 (1228)
2004 - 1.33 (1874)
2005 - 1.41 (1942)
2006 - -1.35 (1858)

Source
5-24-2007 7:37 PM
jklugman
By the way, the total number of military deaths so far for the first six years of the Bush administration: 8,792
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