One of the signs of humans becoming... well... human, has been contemplation of mortality and awareness of a greater Being. Religion has been the glue that kept the original hunter gatherers together, caused them to tend the sick, assist in childbirth, repel attacking beasts, share food, bury and honor the dead.

Liberals demean religion. In fact, by doing so, they try to dehumanize us.

Faith in a loving God keep a lot of us running on an even keel, helps us cope with life and living, gives us strength over the insurmountable, and enables us to peer into our own graves bravely.

So I ask, what exactly is so wrong about religion?

For 99% of the devout, it is essential. For the fanat...

One of the signs of humans becoming... well... human, has been contemplation of mortality and awareness of a greater Being. Religion has been the glue that kept the original hunter gatherers together, caused them to tend the sick, assist in childbirth, repel attacking beasts, share food, bury and honor the dead.

Liberals demean religion. In fact, by doing so, they try to dehumanize us.

Faith in a loving God keep a lot of us running on an even keel, helps us cope with life and living, gives us strength over the insurmountable, and enables us to peer into our own graves bravely.

So I ask, what exactly is so wrong about religion?

For 99% of the devout, it is essential. For the fanatical 1% it corrupts. I vote for the majority good and applaud all religions.

So I ask, what exactly is so wrong about religion?

Since you asked ... there is absolutely nothing provided by religion
that cannot be had without it. Religion provides a foundation for
controlling the masses by way of influencing how they think through
indoctrination and by means of dogma and mysticism. Religion robs the common person in order to sustain its own bloated and
greedy existence. Religion promotes ignorance, supports bigotry,
teaches intolerance, and inhibits knowledge and understanding found through education and discovery.

It truly is an infection of the mind. It allows people to knowingly turn
away from common sense and logic. It allows people to commit ...

So I ask, what exactly is so wrong about religion?

Since you asked ... there is absolutely nothing provided by religion
that cannot be had without it. Religion provides a foundation for
controlling the masses by way of influencing how they think through
indoctrination and by means of dogma and mysticism. Religion robs the common person in order to sustain its own bloated and
greedy existence. Religion promotes ignorance, supports bigotry,
teaches intolerance, and inhibits knowledge and understanding found through education and discovery.

It truly is an infection of the mind. It allows people to knowingly turn
away from common sense and logic. It allows people to commit the most
horrendous crimes and claim innocence because they act for a higher
power. It allows one to accept fantasy as real in order to escape reality.

Religion is as essential to the common person as the next bottle of alchohol or line of coke is to the alchoholic/addict.

If there is a god it is nothing like the man made religions that exist describe him as. My describing god as 3 legged and purple is just as accurate as how any holy book describes him. Our idea of god is based on what any one person would expect of a god - certainly not because anyone knows anything.

The fact that believers themselves cannot agree on anything about god and the increasing tide of "personal god" believers shows that people are so desperate to fill their fear of the unknown that they will go to any length to create a god in which they can follow and worship. Religion is a crutch for the weak minded who cannot face reality.

Well, he did ask.

All people have a religion. You can be your own god. You don't have to have Buddah, God the Creator or Allah be your god. Jus you be your own higher power.

Why is society, in every country, such a mess?

People worship themselves.

Proof that we all believe in something that we cannot see.

"I was traveling between the border of Russia and Germany. I had to take a train and so after I boarded the train alone I took a seat. A young student sat next to me. He saw that I was American and thought it an opportunity to practice his English, "Vere are you going?"
I replied, "I am crossing over into Russia."
Vy do you vant to go there?
"To visit a mission station."
"How can you believe in a ...

All people have a religion. You can be your own god. You don't have to have Buddah, God the Creator or Allah be your god. Jus you be your own higher power.

Why is society, in every country, such a mess?

People worship themselves.

Proof that we all believe in something that we cannot see.

"I was traveling between the border of Russia and Germany. I had to take a train and so after I boarded the train alone I took a seat. A young student sat next to me. He saw that I was American and thought it an opportunity to practice his English, "Vere are you going?"
I replied, "I am crossing over into Russia."
Vy do you vant to go there?
"To visit a mission station."
"How can you believe in a god you cannot see?"
I ignored his question and asked him if he was married? He told me that he was a student and that he would finish school and then he would find a fine wife.
I told him about my wife. I reminisced about the wonderful meals that she would have for me when I came home and the smells of the clean house and the many things that make a home. As I spoke I saw that he understood my words and he smiled. When I finished he said, "I vant to find a vife such as that."
I responded, "Do you really believe that I have a wife."
"Oh, Yes!"

"Why do you believe in someone that you have never met and cannot see?"

This belief is begun in the experiences that a person has with the One they put their faith in, spend their time with. That god can be them self, their dog or another human. Why not have it be their Creator? Even critters put faith in something.

Are you all lower than the dog and cat in your backyard? Where now is your logic?

All people have a religion. You can be your own god.

2 problems with this statement.

First is that it shows yet one more way that people subconsciously recognize that religion is a fairytale. They still want the comfort of an invisible creator/watchdog/sky daddy so they will cherry pick values that they feel make a more acceptable god and then quite happily define god by those characteristics and feel more confident to accept them.

The second is that your attempt to paint everyone with the same brush to equalize the playing field. All people do not have a religion. I do not have a belief or a faith or a dogma about the universe. I have an understanding based upon observatio...

All people have a religion. You can be your own god.

2 problems with this statement.

First is that it shows yet one more way that people subconsciously recognize that religion is a fairytale. They still want the comfort of an invisible creator/watchdog/sky daddy so they will cherry pick values that they feel make a more acceptable god and then quite happily define god by those characteristics and feel more confident to accept them.

The second is that your attempt to paint everyone with the same brush to equalize the playing field. All people do not have a religion. I do not have a belief or a faith or a dogma about the universe. I have an understanding based upon observation and discovery. Through the use of logic, rationality, and demonstration my understanding coalesces. If I disagree or question then I can pursue the truth and discover it directly for myself. If an understanding is found inaccurate then correction strengthens overall understanding.

Religion, on the otherhand, requires that one believe without understanding, to accept without question, and to obey or suffer torment.

Are you all lower than the dog and cat in your backyard? Where now is your logic?

I'll let the dog and cat tend to their own gods, if they feel the need to create them. Unless, of course, their beliefs begin to affect the life that I live. Then I shall take exception, examine their claims, and if they fail I will point out their inadequacies.

I have an understanding based upon observation and discovery

So you believe the scientists or have you been to another planet or star system?
You have seen an atom in real time?
You have measured the speed of light?
You have calculated the density of all matter?
You have isolated and destroyed a cancer cell?
You have personally been to space?
You have seen the shores of another country and talked with the people?
You have been to the bottom of the ocean?
You have unlocked the mysteries of the mind?
You have seen the place where God is supposed to be and found no God?
You have been in the room with the President when he is trying to decide on a coarse of action?
...

I have an understanding based upon observation and discovery

So you believe the scientists or have you been to another planet or star system?
You have seen an atom in real time?
You have measured the speed of light?
You have calculated the density of all matter?
You have isolated and destroyed a cancer cell?
You have personally been to space?
You have seen the shores of another country and talked with the people?
You have been to the bottom of the ocean?
You have unlocked the mysteries of the mind?
You have seen the place where God is supposed to be and found no God?
You have been in the room with the President when he is trying to decide on a coarse of action?
Shall I go on?

I can pursue the truth and discover it directly for myself.

And You ask everyone to 'Believe' you can actually do this?

Can you show us where you have chased the truth to so we can all enjoy it?

I will point out their inadequacies

Of this I have no doubt!

It's an old argument skwirl. Belief through observation and proof is quite different than simply accepting what someone else tells you is truth. I accept the findings of science because of a confidence that many people are constantly examining claims and findings and duplicating the events that lead up to those claims. They make logical sense and the claims allow you to predict the outcome of things based on the findings.

Religion makes a claim and does nothing to prove it other than to demand that you accept it or be punished for questioning it. The definition of faith demands that one cannot have evidence else its not "faith"

You try and meld the concepts of "blind faith" and "belief thr...

It's an old argument skwirl. Belief through observation and proof is quite different than simply accepting what someone else tells you is truth. I accept the findings of science because of a confidence that many people are constantly examining claims and findings and duplicating the events that lead up to those claims. They make logical sense and the claims allow you to predict the outcome of things based on the findings.

Religion makes a claim and does nothing to prove it other than to demand that you accept it or be punished for questioning it. The definition of faith demands that one cannot have evidence else its not "faith"

You try and meld the concepts of "blind faith" and "belief through understanding and evidence". You do this to level the playing field because you inherently know how weak a position faith is when it comes to understanding.

I wonder at your surprise when I claim that if I do question something that I can simply pursue the answer for myself? Are scientists something beyond human? Can a single person not pursue and interest and test the claims of science that have been made?

Skwirl, you have a personal vendetta against me, that is obvious. Please, feel free to point out how anything I say is wrong. You only support what I say when all you can do is resort to personal remarks and snide comments. Surely you must recognize this?

You must be able to see the distinction between religious faith and an acceptance of claims that are backed up by demonstrated evidences, observed effects, and reproducible results? Be happy and content to simply accept a belief based on what you've been told is true with no evidence - but don't get riled up when someone points out the obvious flaws of such a system.

Religion makes a claim and does nothing to prove it other than to demand that you accept it or be punished for questioning it.

The reason I don't consider myself religious.

Skwirl, you have a personal vendetta against me, that is obvious

Oort Cloud, I am not against you. I am probably one of the people that understand what you say. There is no vendetta, I am not that way. I find that if I irritate you I get something from your replies that interests me. You make many valid points, points I have failed to consider previously. You see, I believe God exists in the scientific realms as well as the spiritual. I don't fear your points as much as I am intrigued by the...

Religion makes a claim and does nothing to prove it other than to demand that you accept it or be punished for questioning it.

The reason I don't consider myself religious.

Skwirl, you have a personal vendetta against me, that is obvious

Oort Cloud, I am not against you. I am probably one of the people that understand what you say. There is no vendetta, I am not that way. I find that if I irritate you I get something from your replies that interests me. You make many valid points, points I have failed to consider previously. You see, I believe God exists in the scientific realms as well as the spiritual. I don't fear your points as much as I am intrigued by them.
I see God as Black, White and gray. I have been legally dead and I know there is something in the after but I cannot tell if it is a realm of aether or a time delay as my brain decomposes. Things that I know I have experienced during death defy the logical scientific explanation I am searching for.
How can any man try to explain a phenomenon that has had 14 billion years or more to develop?

My 'Faith' is not blind and I do not readily accept the rules of religion in my life. I know that the Bible is written by man from the inspiration they felt came from God. I have never seen nor do I expect to see God as long as I exist in this body. The values that I have learned from religion are good and I can see this without a doubt. I will not be punished for my ideals by God because God rules a higher plane than the one I exist in. Good and bad are concepts of man and are there to form a society that can coexist and flourish.

When you think about the formation of the universe and how we are all part of the universe doesn't it make you wonder what processes came together to create a part of the universe that becomes sentient?
We are all part of the universe. We all have atoms made of dead stars and billions of years of existence. If we think of how the universe was made are we not trying to figure out how we came to be. We are the universe trying to figure itself out. We are the universe at a conscience level. We are aware of ourself. We are one. With different opinions of what we are. That spark of awareness that opened up our sight just happened. Is it a random chaotic event or has it happened before? Is it a pa...

When you think about the formation of the universe and how we are all part of the universe doesn't it make you wonder what processes came together to create a part of the universe that becomes sentient?
We are all part of the universe. We all have atoms made of dead stars and billions of years of existence. If we think of how the universe was made are we not trying to figure out how we came to be. We are the universe trying to figure itself out. We are the universe at a conscience level. We are aware of ourself. We are one. With different opinions of what we are. That spark of awareness that opened up our sight just happened. Is it a random chaotic event or has it happened before? Is it a pattern that the universe is duplicating or did it just happen by chance?
If we find intelligent life out there we will know that it is not a random occurrence. Until that life is found we just don't know.
When something is not known it has an infinity number of chances of being anything. To absolutely state that God doesn't exist is to imply that you have the knowledge that nobody has.
Now, to debate that as fact is just silly.
Yes, there are a multitude of very good reasons God should not exist but until we find the place where God should be it's still just a guess.

Good and bad are concepts of man and are there to form a society that can coexist and flourish.

I agree.

To absolutely state that God doesn't exist is to imply that you have the knowledge that nobody has.

Again, I agree.
I have no idea if god exists or not. However, I can make an informed decision based on the claims that other people make about specific ideas of god. I can use logic and rationality to determine if those claims make sense or if they are true, especially when they make testable claims (such as the power of prayer, the logic of gods attributes, the legitimacy of the bible, etc).

In other words, the existence of a creator is purely speculation....

Good and bad are concepts of man and are there to form a society that can coexist and flourish.

I agree.

To absolutely state that God doesn't exist is to imply that you have the knowledge that nobody has.

Again, I agree.
I have no idea if god exists or not. However, I can make an informed decision based on the claims that other people make about specific ideas of god. I can use logic and rationality to determine if those claims make sense or if they are true, especially when they make testable claims (such as the power of prayer, the logic of gods attributes, the legitimacy of the bible, etc).

In other words, the existence of a creator is purely speculation. It's exisitance is simply unknown at this time. However, I can still say that Jesus Christ, Jehova, Allah, Mithra, The holy spirit, or whatever other "god" as described by current human standards does not exist. If god does indeed exist, this being is not the creature described by these religions. There is sufficient evidence to dismiss these claims.

The universe is wonderous and amazing, but its beauty and awe is not an automatic identifier of a creator. We just do not know. And I do not belittle the search for this being, however what we have today in theology is not a search, but a dogma already in place and being used to manipulate people into doing the will of those in positions of power. You can see this happen in any history book you pick up - it amazes me that people today think they are free of that same manipulation!

I think we see much the same on this skwirl, but perhaps I have less acceptance of religion as it exists today. I do feel it is a cancer on society and that there is nothing it offers that cannot be had without. Morals are not divine in origin, mankind is quite capable of existing without a mythological overlord, and whatever death brings us will come to us regardless what people make up about it.

Sure, I agree that religion is a facade. I see what it does to people and how it creates the society it tries to avoid.
I have tolerance because I accept that people are different and hold different values.
I try to change the things I can, recognize the things I can't change and I hope for the wisdom to know the difference. One of the things I can't change is how people feel. What they believe. Those beliefs are theirs, its probably the only thing we truly own is our beliefs. When I meet a person that is ruled by superstition and tradition I don't try to change them to fit my world. I just try to understand their beliefs so that I can interact with them effectively. I recognize their belie...

Sure, I agree that religion is a facade. I see what it does to people and how it creates the society it tries to avoid.
I have tolerance because I accept that people are different and hold different values.
I try to change the things I can, recognize the things I can't change and I hope for the wisdom to know the difference. One of the things I can't change is how people feel. What they believe. Those beliefs are theirs, its probably the only thing we truly own is our beliefs. When I meet a person that is ruled by superstition and tradition I don't try to change them to fit my world. I just try to understand their beliefs so that I can interact with them effectively. I recognize their belief controlled decisions and act accordingly. They are not better or worse, just different.
If society passes laws based upon a religion I accept their laws if I want to be part of their society. No its not fair but very few things in life are fair. Nature is much harsher. Nature is unforgiving and down-right hostile.

But life just isn't that simple. Believers do not sit in their corner of the sandbox and mind their manners. They try to influence how other people live. You cannot simply allow them their beliefs and life and then live your own. You must allow them their beliefs and life, then adjust your life and accept changes forced upon you by their interference.

You use the axiom of AA "I try to change the things I can, recognize the things I can't change and I hope for the wisdom to know the difference." This is a methodology to enable those that cannot cope with life to recognize their own limitations. It can be quite helpful to those that have an abuse problem. Unfortunately it is absolutely useles...

But life just isn't that simple. Believers do not sit in their corner of the sandbox and mind their manners. They try to influence how other people live. You cannot simply allow them their beliefs and life and then live your own. You must allow them their beliefs and life, then adjust your life and accept changes forced upon you by their interference.

You use the axiom of AA "I try to change the things I can, recognize the things I can't change and I hope for the wisdom to know the difference." This is a methodology to enable those that cannot cope with life to recognize their own limitations. It can be quite helpful to those that have an abuse problem. Unfortunately it is absolutely useless to those that first do not recognize and admit that they have a problem in the first place.

I do recognize that these places of discussion, and many others, offer a way for those believers who have never been exposed to anything else. The first thing that many people say when they escape religion is that they had no idea that other people openly rejected the belief system. Those that do question are relieved to find others who saw the problems and it reassures them that they are not simply broken in some way.

That is why I feel it very important not to grant respect to these belief systems when they have been shown to be so fraudulent.

@skwirlinator

When you think about the formation of the universe and how we are all part of the universe doesn't it make you wonder what processes came together to create a part of the universe that becomes sentient?

Is it a pattern that the universe is duplicating or did it just happen by chance?

Sure, I agree that religion is a facade.

--

Ahhh, sentience! The millennium leap over religious thought.

If we suppose that a (sentient) being "gave" it to us, and that such a method would be the only way it could be bestowed...

...then "who or what" bestowed it upon the creator being that gave it to us? Ad infinitum... Until the logical...

@skwirlinator

When you think about the formation of the universe and how we are all part of the universe doesn't it make you wonder what processes came together to create a part of the universe that becomes sentient?

Is it a pattern that the universe is duplicating or did it just happen by chance?

Sure, I agree that religion is a facade.

--

Ahhh, sentience! The millennium leap over religious thought.

If we suppose that a (sentient) being "gave" it to us, and that such a method would be the only way it could be bestowed...

...then "who or what" bestowed it upon the creator being that gave it to us? Ad infinitum... Until the logical conclusion is reached, that:

Eventually, even if there be a creator being, its own sentience could only have come about via the Natural Universe.

And so It could not be a creator of "that" universe, and it could not in any way predate the universe in which it exists. Any god would remain a product of the Natural universe.

On the other hand, if there is no god, our own sentience must have come about through a Natural universe.

It would therefore appear that ALL sentience, god or other, could only have its origin derived from a Natural universe.

The universe is thus becoming conscious of itself.

"We are the universe trying to figure itself out. We are the universe at a conscience level."

And I suppose at some point, through science, the study of the universe (and its laws and properties) will eventually make "sentient beings" smart enough to overcome death and become the conscious universe itself.

The pinnacle of evolution. Perhaps even the creation of a god.

At first - skwirlinator
I feel big respect to your attitude!

These days I read a lot of texts of Bashar (from planet Essessani - ha!), and I like most of his explanations. So different, so penetrating!
This is what he says about religion:

… The idea is to understand this: what you normally call "religions" on your planet, the ones that you recognize as mainstream religions, have generally been structured to take your power away from you. They have been structured to de-connect you from your natural relationship to All That Is and to get you to hand over the responsibility of that connection to someone else.
… Overall, the idea is that your planetary civilization, as we perceive your rela...

At first - skwirlinator
I feel big respect to your attitude!

These days I read a lot of texts of Bashar (from planet Essessani - ha!), and I like most of his explanations. So different, so penetrating!
This is what he says about religion:

… The idea is to understand this: what you normally call "religions" on your planet, the ones that you recognize as mainstream religions, have generally been structured to take your power away from you. They have been structured to de-connect you from your natural relationship to All That Is and to get you to hand over the responsibility of that connection to someone else.
… Overall, the idea is that your planetary civilization, as we perceive your relationship to the concept of a Creator, is you generally see the Creator as something beyond you, outside of you that you are subject to, in a sense, distinct from or separate from Creation, whereas we really see no separation. We recognize that there are different manifestations of different levels.
We understand that the ONE knows itself as THE ONE and knows itself as ALL that makes up THE ONE. And we recognize that there may seem to be a difference between all the individual components and THE ONE. And the individual components may, in a sense, not be as "great" as the ONE, or, I should say, as expanded as the ONE. But each component holographically contains ALL of the ONE, and the ONE is the ALL. It is all one thing.
…
You don't need religion to give you the connection... the connection is already there. Religion is just a way of expressing the connection that is already there. And the less ritual a person needs, the less religion they need. …

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