 enbar says: Newsweek on the "QuiverFull" movement ("Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one’s youth. Happy is the man who has his quiver full of them." Psalm 127.4f.), which campaigns against birth control, espouses a relatively fundamentalist version of evangelical Christianity, and advocates having at least six children per family. OMG, the very people that should not reproduce .... period Hey, Socratoad. I really think it would be to your benefit as well as that of the Clipmarks community if you would ease back on the hostility of your comments about conservatives and Christians. We've worked hard to try to create a sense of decency here and would like to see it preserved. Thank you. Although, judging from some of your recent comments, you may likely feel that I am an exception to that "created sense of decency", K7, big props and kudos, nonetheless for that expressed sentiment. Good for these people, if that's what they believe and want to do. Bad if they want me to do it too. Personally, I will never consent to being a baby-bearing droid. Plus, I sucked at child-rearing until I was 50, and now I don't have the energy. See good feminist SF by Sheri S. Tepper: The Gate to Women's Country (excellent) and Gibbon's Decline and Fall (good) Sorry about that K7. I realize that I do get more than a little carried away at times with the rhetoric. I DO appreciate the community here. I really do not have anything against Christians. Its just that one meets so very few of them. Now self-professed "Christians", well now thats another whole kettle of fish. I have been known to say to such people. "never mind constantly telling me that you are a Christian, by your deeds shall you be known" Seems to me that by churning out babies like these people are proudly doing they are not showing even the slightest concern for future generations on this already over-crowded planet. Not very Christian, by any measure that I can define. Whew... Being that you are from Canada, and western Canada at that, I'm surprised that you have bought in to the over-crowded planet myth. a small but growing conservative Protestant group...I'll bet they're growing. If the children stick to the faith and have the same fertility that one couple is going to have say... 250 great-grandchildren? Ooooooh mama.. I'm not from "western" Canada, I'm from Ontario. Myth? Surely you speak in jest! I'm just lucky you're from Canada at all, as I had you confused with Mr Whisperer. Myth? Surely you speak in jest!Absolutely it is a myth. There is no overpopulation and will be no overpopulation on a global scale. This is just one of many alarmist clamorings. and advocates having at least six children per family.This seems strange, since they advocate that only God opens and closes the womb. Why set any kind of minimum? If God is controlling their fertility, how can they control how many kids they have? Um ... bignosemousie ... do you know about how babies are made? Wilhelm, have you ever actually went out into nature and looked ..... looked carefully.. Have you ever read about many species in many different parts of this tired old planet being crowded out, because of the expansion of human population. Have you never read about the collapse of the ocean fisheries; the disappearance of the worlds forests at alarming rates, and on and on. What causes you to believe that such observations, backed up by data, and statistics are myths? Reminds me of the old English song, " Todays the day they give babies away with a half a pound of tea" ( sung in a cockney accent)  That's a great song. Um ... bignosemousie ... do you know about how babies are made?Yes, I just thought it strange that they are giving God complete control of their fertility and then suggesting you have at least 6 babies. Is that not suggesting that man is also in control of things? Or is that minimum requirement for God? I'm guessing, after six, or whenever you decide to stop, then you turn celibate ... But that's just a guess. Socratoad, you are free to believe in whatever fancy tales you choose. You can rest well knowing I am very much up to date, thank you. Please know the veracity of my beliefs are very well founded. Further, I fully expect my "green" lifestyle and my love of nature of the outdoors would at least rival, if not overwhelm most that proclaim the Gospel according to Al Gore. It is funny you choose to bring up the latest garbage of fish depletion. This has been been rebuked by some as tabloid-style scientific journalism. This is the age we are in. I understand that. I fully expect there will blind-faith followers. Kore7, what exactly gives you the right to criticize Socratodad? I was under the impression that one could speak their mind and voice their opinion, as most do here. Are you also going to be slapping people on the wrist for posting too many anti-X or pro-Y clippings? I'm sorry, but I totally agreed with the first comment made. When people are crazy enough to give birth not because they want to have a child, to love it, to raise it well and give it a good life, but simply to produce babies like some kind of poultry animal, these people don't deserve to be parents. @ willhelm: Fish depletion is garbage? Thats the first time someones said that. Where did you get THAT garbage from? I guess the same place tells you that Rainforest's aren't being devastated either. @lonely_planet Kore7 didn't 'criticize' anyone, he simply suggested something based on what he saw. As someone who's been in this community longer than you and I, and as you say - everyone has a right, so he did. Socratoad acknowledged the benign and friendly suggestion - no harm done. There's been situations, including yours truly, where things were escalating a little beyond the acceptable norm. Once it got to the point of someone's account terminated due to the damage it was causing. I think (and please correct me Kore7 if you disagree) - all he was trying to do is just to avoid escalating things to the same extent. I've posted something recently that after reading Kore7's comment, ... Nothing new here people; the Catholic Church has been advocating this for years (A large number of Catholics silently disregard this nonsense) debbyski's right, except for one thing -- the Catholic church says the so-called "rhythm method" is OK, and these people reject it as artificial interference with God's will. Also, I think it's interesting simply because they're not Catholics. " It is funny you choose to bring up the latest garbage of fish depletion. This has been been rebuked by some as tabloid-style scientific journalism" 'funny", Wilhelm, yes simply hilarious! Perhaps you should bring your "enlightened" understanding of the planet to the people of Newfoundland. The early pioneers of North America had the same type of far-seeing "enlightenment" as you regarding the soon to be extinct passenger pigeon Assuming the Passenger Pigeon ever existed and that, if it ever existed, that it ever really became extinct (Rush tells me scientists are divided on these points  ), it's extinction is a great example of resource depletion in an unfettered free market economy. Passenger pigeons were a national-scale industry. After the initial population crash, the economic value of the pigeons increased with their rarity, and the incentive to harvest them even harder was greater. The more endangered it became, the greater the profits to be reaped. A thumbs up on that post tpq62 ... great Thanks lonely-planet for defending my little diatribe, but not to worry all is well. I realize that sometimes I do come a little too close to the edge And thank you RecordSage for the clarification. A little history of past heated exchanges here on Clipmarks gives pause for reflection. since we hit the topic of over populating the planet, I'd like to chime in with a little statistic scenario. If you took the entire world's population and divied them up into neat little four member family groups and gave them each a quarter acre on which to live, did you know that you could fit them all in an area no bigger than Texas? Really! Over population is centuries away if ever given the human propensity for war, famine, disease, etc., Add to that the trend among free nations to depopulate!!! Yes, my friends, we are depopulating and the only reason our census records greater numbers in the US is becuase of immigration. Not only the US but also France, Italy, yada-yada-yada. In ... The are a number of problems The overpopulation issue doesn't have anything to do with the amount of physical space that people occupy. There's plenty of room for people. The resources used for feeding people is the problem. The US gov't estimated for a family to be self-sufficient takes 160 acres of good land. With modern agriculture, no fallowing or crop rotation, and ignoring the hidden costs of industrial fertilizers and pesticides, say...40 acres per household. And that's just food. It doesn't include acreage for fuel (huge cost there), housing, and clothing. You see the problem? Second issue, and here we are in agreement. Overpopulation can be mitigated (for a while anyway) thr... JudgeRight seems to be suggesting that QuiverFull is a good thing because it's mostly white people, and white people ought to be having more babies anyhow. Is that right, JudgeRight? True. But arguments like his are so coded these days that I am almost grateful for his bluntness. Why is everything always racial and tribal with the left? It's very obscuring of the human essense of things. Actually, I think JudgeRight is speaking from the right, not the left. The far right at that I'm with enbar and Socratoad, Godfrey. JudgeRIght is a right winger. It's been obvious since his arrival due to his name and his commonsense that he is on the right. My comment had to do with Enbar turning this: the trend among free nations to depopulate!, into this: JudgeRight seems to be suggesting that QuiverFull is a good thing because it's mostly white people Here's what he also said "What people groups ARE increasing? Arabs, Persians, Hispanics, etc.." Not sure why you would leave that off... Because it was incidental to his point. In Europe the problem is cultural, not racial. Ah, the discipline of The Base. You know, Godfrey, it is ok to disagree with another right-winger. Rather than go through these awkward semantic gymnastics, why don't you ask JudgeRight what he meant? In Europe the problem is cultural, not racial.Heh. You can't actually believe that anyone buys this. First, can you tell me exactly how, in that context, one would differentiate between "cultural" and "racial" prejudice? Are there any white people who fall into the category of "Arabs, Persians, [and] Hispanics" because of their "culture"? To me, someone who goes around saying that there are too many "Arabs, Persians, and Hispanics" in the world (he didn't actually specify Europe exclusively) has got to have some racist attitudes, no matter how nicely you try to parse it. The problem with the Left is that it can't process information cleanly and directly because of the multiple filters that it goes though prior to the application of logic diminished and crippled by the process. In this case it's one of the prominent ones--the Melanin Filter. Race is not culture. Culture is not race. The problem addressed here has to do with cultural displacement. They're having the same issues in Scotland with Polish immigrant culture threatening to displace the indigenous. Perhaps you can understand from that case as the Melanin Filter won't be activated muddling the thinking. It's easy to throw around clever little capitalized two-word slogans, but can you actually give an argument for what you're saying? I just gave one. Your first reading missed it due to the distracting nature of my clever slogan. Try again now that the initial buzz of admiration won't distract your notice. Umm ... okay, so this is a guessing game? Is this your "argument"? The problem addressed here has to do with cultural displacement. They're having the same issues in Scotland with Polish immigrant culture threatening to displace the indigenous.I hate to break it to you, but that's not an argument. First, define "displacement." Second, how do Poles in Scotland prove that the original comment (which referred to "Persians, Arabs, and Hispanics") is not racist? There's definitely been an increased use of a sort of pop anthropology by right-wing talking heads and policy wonks. David Brooks, for example, acts as if he invented the concept of culture. That whole appropriation is a fairly complex topic, but by the time the concepts percolate through the talk shows and editorial columns to the base they are little more than either empty buzzwords or substitutions for now unacceptable terms. "Culture" isn't "race"--somehow the ideologies are the same, the topologies of humanity are the same, but, now that we call the targets "cultures" rather than "races" it's all different. Insidious. There's definitely been an increased use of a sort of pop anthropology by right-wing talking heads and policy wonks.[/i Read--there has been resistance to the efforts to replace one unifying American culture with chaotic self segregating multiculturalism. [i]David Brooks, for example, acts as if he invented the concept of culture. I don't know who this is and don't care what he thinks about his own cleverness and inventiveness. I suppose if the obvious distinctions between race and culture ellude one, then all sorts of misinterpretations can result. For instance, those who see no distinctions would have to logically assert from that premise that a black man in Boston has more i... edit: messed up the code. second sentence should not be italicized Not surprising. David Brooks is fairly high up the right-wing quotation chain--George Will level. But most likely the sound bites you heard recoding "race" as "culture" ultimately originated with him or someone like him, and then percolated down to the talk radio level. But that's neither here nor there. "Culture" and "race" are indeed different concepts, in much the same way that "race" and "underclass" are also different concepts. But when they are deployed in right-wing contexts in the US, the differences aren't important. "Culture" is no longer a heuristic for understanding, but a new fig leaf over the same underlying ideology. If the typologies of humanity are identical and the ... I said: "There's definitely been an increased use of a sort of pop anthropology by right-wing talking heads and policy wonks." to which GD replies "Read--there has been resistance to the efforts to replace one unifying American culture with chaotic self segregating multiculturalism." I've noticed you tend to proceed by a taking a sentence or event, finding the closest of a limited set of slogans (The Sayings of Chairman Rush?), and then equating the two. I suppose it is a useful mechanism for coping with complexity. But I am not sure how this method of seeking understanding by directly translating sentences you haven't encountered into sentences you have can ever lead to [... All of your responses to my comments are to stereotypes and caricatures in your own mind. When you couldn't give credit to David Brooks for my conclusions and thought processes you looked for another source. My sentences and thinking are my own. But your tactic is not atypical of The Left who seem to think that those who don't see things as they do must simply be robotically functioning as programmed. The distinctions between race and culture are plain and simple and don't require special programming, political affiliation, or religion to notice. I have had influences. I read and listen to others as I'm sure you have. I presume that your current thinking, as expressed here, represents a... The distinctions between race and culture are plain and simple ...Absolutely. So why substitute one for the other as if there is no difference, especially when the underlying argument is exactly the same? As for the rest, I don't think you are programmed as such, but I do think you approach debate as little more than the chanting of cutesy slogans at simple-minded caricatures. That's unfortunate--your thoughts may indeed be original, but your methods of argument don't leave them any room to come through. |
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