If you actually study the bible, it tells you what parts are important, and what parts aren't. The Old Testament is only important to Christians for the parts where the birth of Christ is prophesied. When Jesus came, and fulfilled the prophesy, his Gospels became the most important part of the bible. He even stated that the old ways had passed away (telling us that the laws and "wisdoms" of the Old Testament were no longer relevant) an he clarified just what God required of his Children. Anything beyond the Gospels is just the opinions of other people on the teachings of Jesus, not the actual words of Jesus himself. Paul the Apostle has several large failing, not the least of which being tha...

If you actually study the bible, it tells you what parts are important, and what parts aren't. The Old Testament is only important to Christians for the parts where the birth of Christ is prophesied. When Jesus came, and fulfilled the prophesy, his Gospels became the most important part of the bible. He even stated that the old ways had passed away (telling us that the laws and "wisdoms" of the Old Testament were no longer relevant) an he clarified just what God required of his Children. Anything beyond the Gospels is just the opinions of other people on the teachings of Jesus, not the actual words of Jesus himself. Paul the Apostle has several large failing, not the least of which being that he was not the Son of God, like Jesus; but rather was just human, and prone to human failings, such as his well-known racism.

It's one thing to just read the bible; it's another to actually endeavour to really understand it. Remember, the bible is an anthology created by men, not God. While it contains the Word of God, it is not the entire thing, the Word of God. The vast majority of it is the Word of Man. Understanding that is one of the main things that truly separates true Christians from the merely religious.

Jay, you missed the part where I said that the Bible is an anthology written by man? It contains the Good News; the Testament of Christ, but most of it is just the word of man. There is instruction to be learned in some of those men's words, but outside of the Gospels, we really shouldn't give the bible any more weight than we give the works of any other man (or woman). Some of those men were wise, yes; but some of them were racist, sexist, misogynistic bastards, or worse.

God gave us common sense. He expected us to use it while reading the Bible. When we see outdated cultural memes, like the endorsement of slavery, racism, sexism or misogynism, He expects us to recognize them as the humani...

Jay, you missed the part where I said that the Bible is an anthology written by man? It contains the Good News; the Testament of Christ, but most of it is just the word of man. There is instruction to be learned in some of those men's words, but outside of the Gospels, we really shouldn't give the bible any more weight than we give the works of any other man (or woman). Some of those men were wise, yes; but some of them were racist, sexist, misogynistic bastards, or worse.

God gave us common sense. He expected us to use it while reading the Bible. When we see outdated cultural memes, like the endorsement of slavery, racism, sexism or misogynism, He expects us to recognize them as the humanisms they are, rather than to blindly accept them as Law.

In short; He gave us a brain... He expects us to use it.

Jesus of Nazareth is a conglomeration of ideas that have already been recognized to exist all over the world prior to his "birth". Also, Jesus of Nazareth has literally zero historic evidence of his life, as well as not a single word of Jesus of Nazareth comes directly from him but from people who passed on legends over the course of decades AND anyone reading the gospels can easily see how the level of exaggeration of those stories increase with later telling and later authors.

So please don't accuse me of being close minded when you must go to such extreme levels of acceptance to believe anything about Jesus of Nazareth while at the same time admitting that other sections of the bible sh...

Jesus of Nazareth is a conglomeration of ideas that have already been recognized to exist all over the world prior to his "birth". Also, Jesus of Nazareth has literally zero historic evidence of his life, as well as not a single word of Jesus of Nazareth comes directly from him but from people who passed on legends over the course of decades AND anyone reading the gospels can easily see how the level of exaggeration of those stories increase with later telling and later authors.

So please don't accuse me of being close minded when you must go to such extreme levels of acceptance to believe anything about Jesus of Nazareth while at the same time admitting that other sections of the bible should not be accepted as truth.

And you are correct, there are some aspects of the words that Jesus is attributed to that could make the world a better place - but that doesn't require believing all the rest of the mythological bunk that goes with it.

I never said he did not exist (I thought I had replied earlier but apparently it didn't take). The point is that with his name, you've used up the entirety of his historical evidence. It is literally zero evidence. Jesus really only exists within the bible and the fact that it is such a rag of contradiction, obvious exaggeration, added and removed bits, inaccuracies, and required conscious effort to ignore or turn a blind eye to much of it then it is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty for any person to try and use it as a valid source of evidence.

Taking brilliant ideas that benefit the peacefulness of mankind which is HISTORICALLY PROVEN to exist before the bible was even written and t...

I never said he did not exist (I thought I had replied earlier but apparently it didn't take). The point is that with his name, you've used up the entirety of his historical evidence. It is literally zero evidence. Jesus really only exists within the bible and the fact that it is such a rag of contradiction, obvious exaggeration, added and removed bits, inaccuracies, and required conscious effort to ignore or turn a blind eye to much of it then it is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty for any person to try and use it as a valid source of evidence.

Taking brilliant ideas that benefit the peacefulness of mankind which is HISTORICALLY PROVEN to exist before the bible was even written and then attributing them to Jesus Christ is what you mean by being deceitful.

Taoguide has some reasonable thoughts, but in my understanding, none of those expect us to accept dogma such as the Bible and religions based on it do. Rather they are a guide of thoughtful process for a seeker to follow to find his/her own center. As to being refined to a crystal, I'll let that pass as a nice poetic metaphor and leave it, unless of course TG would like to present physical evidence and other evidence as to provenance, but I won't be holding my breath for that.

But darke, you're reaching here in justification of your beliefs. Your argument doesn't sway me in the least. Was there a man who, perhaps, could be identified as that person people commonly refer to as Jesus? Perhaps...

Taoguide has some reasonable thoughts, but in my understanding, none of those expect us to accept dogma such as the Bible and religions based on it do. Rather they are a guide of thoughtful process for a seeker to follow to find his/her own center. As to being refined to a crystal, I'll let that pass as a nice poetic metaphor and leave it, unless of course TG would like to present physical evidence and other evidence as to provenance, but I won't be holding my breath for that.

But darke, you're reaching here in justification of your beliefs. Your argument doesn't sway me in the least. Was there a man who, perhaps, could be identified as that person people commonly refer to as Jesus? Perhaps. Are we certain of that? Was he genuinely the "Son of God", and all the other claptrap that goes along with it? Not a hope in these quarters. Were there some good ideas about self-conduct set forth which he is identified with? Sure. That however, doesn't have any bearing as proof of any of the previous questions, nor does it in any way take the light away from the faith in ancient Hebrew men proposal set forth in the clip.

Prophesy in the Old Testament (The only parts of the Old Testament that really matter) prove that Jesus was the Messiah; the son of God.

But the thing is, I am not trying to convince anyone to believe what I believe. I have very personal experiences that validate and confirm my faith, but I am not an evangelist. My one and only job is to live the life of a Christian, mention the Good News to others, and let them make their own decision. If I'm not convincing, then so be it. I'm not going to browbeat anyone by saying they have to believe what I believe or go to hell. That's not my call. God gave us free will for a purpose, and I fully support people exercising their own free will.

And Oort,...

Prophesy in the Old Testament (The only parts of the Old Testament that really matter) prove that Jesus was the Messiah; the son of God.

But the thing is, I am not trying to convince anyone to believe what I believe. I have very personal experiences that validate and confirm my faith, but I am not an evangelist. My one and only job is to live the life of a Christian, mention the Good News to others, and let them make their own decision. If I'm not convincing, then so be it. I'm not going to browbeat anyone by saying they have to believe what I believe or go to hell. That's not my call. God gave us free will for a purpose, and I fully support people exercising their own free will.

And Oort, being silly doesn't advance your point any. It just detracts.

Brainless faithful idiot : "God is great! God is all! I believe in god! You must also believe because if you don't then you sin! And you must live your life according to what I believe or else your life is wrong and you sin! Its all proven in the bible!"

Rationalist : "The bible has been proven to have alot of errors, misinformation, contradiction and descriptions of a morality that many find abhorrent today. The basis in which you try and force me to live by your beliefs is flawed."

Brainless faithful Idiot : "Why must the unbelievers always attack my belief!?"

Really darke. The strawman you put forth, unbelievers respond simply because they are afraid to be wrong, s...

Brainless faithful idiot : "God is great! God is all! I believe in god! You must also believe because if you don't then you sin! And you must live your life according to what I believe or else your life is wrong and you sin! Its all proven in the bible!"

Rationalist : "The bible has been proven to have alot of errors, misinformation, contradiction and descriptions of a morality that many find abhorrent today. The basis in which you try and force me to live by your beliefs is flawed."

Brainless faithful Idiot : "Why must the unbelievers always attack my belief!?"

Really darke. The strawman you put forth, unbelievers respond simply because they are afraid to be wrong, shows that either you are too stupid to recognize the reasons they challenge your claims or it is YOU who are afraid to acknowledge and understand why people are really laughing at you and your skewed beliefs.

See, to explain it so you can't act like you don't understand, is that when you get into people's faces about how to live and try and change the ways that people live according to the beliefs you have then those people are going to want to understand why it is they have to change their ways to fit YOUR idea of life.

Of course, once they start to examine the claims you make, see how pathetically ridiculous they are, and recognize how many little darkeforces there out there in the world trying to influence daily life, politics, science, education, etc then us people tend to react by pointing out the problems with your belief claims.

You simply can't cry foul if you make a claim and its revealed as completely empty.

Oort, you're wrong once again. There are a lot of evangelical atheists out there — you are the Pat Robertson of Atheists yourself. When someone mentions they are a person of faith; even without trying to convince you to believe their beliefs, you jump on them mercilessly, telling them that they're stupid and brainless, just because you are lacking in experiences and knowledge that they possess... experiences and knowledge that you have clearly stated that you are too afraid to look into. You are presenting the "Sour Grapes" scenario, and when someone points that out, you get even more maniacal in your attempts to convert that person to your faith.

I don't get into anyone's faces about how t...

Oort, you're wrong once again. There are a lot of evangelical atheists out there — you are the Pat Robertson of Atheists yourself. When someone mentions they are a person of faith; even without trying to convince you to believe their beliefs, you jump on them mercilessly, telling them that they're stupid and brainless, just because you are lacking in experiences and knowledge that they possess... experiences and knowledge that you have clearly stated that you are too afraid to look into. You are presenting the "Sour Grapes" scenario, and when someone points that out, you get even more maniacal in your attempts to convert that person to your faith.

I don't get into anyone's faces about how they should live (but you do). I point out misconceptions that people spread about God's word, and I leave it to each person's own choice. If they chose to not believe in God, so be it. However, I will not allow them to present lies about Christianity without challenging them. That is what I do with you. You proselytize; I debunk what you say when you start drifting off into inanity.

You have made it abundantly clear that you will not be happy until everyone follows your Atheistic faith, and that anyone who expresses belief in a different faith is an open target for you. Your arguments are irrational and meaningless when a person is not doing the same attempts at conversion that you are doing, so ultimately, it just makes you look more and more silly.

Infowarrior, I do not dismiss any other gods. I know they exist; just as I know they are false, and not what they present themselves as. I am most certainly not an atheist. That faith doesn't float with me — too many holes in it.

No dorkforce, I'm not evengelical. Unlike you, I don't run around preaching anything about a belief trying to get those to believe. There is a difference between spouting what you want to be true and pointing out that which is verified with scientific inquiry, evidence, and research.

The jumping comes because you know how stupid and brainless you are, feel the sting of it, and then go on spouting the same old nonsense because you just don't want to give up an idea you take personally. It's sad really. It all comes down to being able to face reality over fantasy.

The rest of your brainless banter is pretty much the usual - you making up situations and past events so that you can sleep bette...

No dorkforce, I'm not evengelical. Unlike you, I don't run around preaching anything about a belief trying to get those to believe. There is a difference between spouting what you want to be true and pointing out that which is verified with scientific inquiry, evidence, and research.

The jumping comes because you know how stupid and brainless you are, feel the sting of it, and then go on spouting the same old nonsense because you just don't want to give up an idea you take personally. It's sad really. It all comes down to being able to face reality over fantasy.

The rest of your brainless banter is pretty much the usual - you making up situations and past events so that you can sleep better at night with your delusion. As an example of that I simply have to giggle and quote you :

I do not dismiss any other gods. I know they exist; just as I know they are false

So you believe in the entire pantheon of gods that mankind has created, but they aren't real. Seek professional help. Psychological problems can quite often be brought under control with medication.

Perhaps then you'll finally understand what atheism really is and not what you pretend to make it so the dark doesn't scare you.

The trolls are looking a little starved in their reasoning, so without further ado, its feeding time.

Q: Prove God doesn’t exist.
A: That’s a tough one. Show me how it’s done by proving Zeus and Apollo don’t exist, and I’ll use your method. - Pat Condell

Hardly unfair, quite an objective approach.

Still waiting for this imaginary friend of yours to show up and defend himself though, as it seems you have to fight his battles for him at the moment... Is he ill? or mute? or perhaps he just can't come to the phone right now? or maybe he is scared of debate?


"The world holds two classes of men - intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence."
– A...

The trolls are looking a little starved in their reasoning, so without further ado, its feeding time.

Q: Prove God doesn’t exist.
A: That’s a tough one. Show me how it’s done by proving Zeus and Apollo don’t exist, and I’ll use your method. - Pat Condell

Hardly unfair, quite an objective approach.

Still waiting for this imaginary friend of yours to show up and defend himself though, as it seems you have to fight his battles for him at the moment... Is he ill? or mute? or perhaps he just can't come to the phone right now? or maybe he is scared of debate?


"The world holds two classes of men - intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence."
– Abu Ala Al-Maarri

My own personal amusement aside though, You believe in many gods? which ones? does that include whole sets from the various ages or does one mix and match to suit your own tastes?

Oort, you're delusional. You're the biggest evangelist on Clipmarks, striking with maniacal frenzy any time someone suggests that the believe something that you are dedicated to destroying the belief in. Your response here is typical of your type. You're a real Pat Robertson of Atheism. I don't make anything up, but you're grasping at straws to try to debunk my faith.

So you believe in the entire pantheon of gods that mankind has created, but they aren't real. Seek professional help. Psychological problems can quite often be brought under control with medication.

You really don't pay attention, do you? There is a world of difference between something being False and somethin...

Oort, you're delusional. You're the biggest evangelist on Clipmarks, striking with maniacal frenzy any time someone suggests that the believe something that you are dedicated to destroying the belief in. Your response here is typical of your type. You're a real Pat Robertson of Atheism. I don't make anything up, but you're grasping at straws to try to debunk my faith.

So you believe in the entire pantheon of gods that mankind has created, but they aren't real. Seek professional help. Psychological problems can quite often be brought under control with medication.

You really don't pay attention, do you? There is a world of difference between something being False and something being Not Real. I hate to tell you, but you're the one who needs psychological help. You're jumping to conclusions so fast that you're getting aerobic exercise.

Just face it, you've reached the point where you're desperate to try to debunk my faith, because you've failed in every thing you've tried. I'm the one thing that your faith cannot stand — an intelligent, rational Christian, confident in his beliefs, and unswayed by your bullying tactics. Just give it up. You're wrong this time. Face up to it.

you're desperate to try to debunk my faith

Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.
I'm the one thing that your faith cannot stand — an intelligent, rational Christian, confident in his beliefs Intelligent? Possible. It would be dishonest to say that people who choose to believe are stupid people - however they are willfully ignorant and self deceptive, choosing to ignore those pesky facts that disprove their beliefs. You just might be an intelligent person with a high potential to learn, but sadly you choose to remain ignorant and superstitious.

Rational Christian? That's an oxymoron.

Confident in your belief? More likely blinded by them. You're like the Knight in...

you're desperate to try to debunk my faith

Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.
I'm the one thing that your faith cannot stand — an intelligent, rational Christian, confident in his beliefs Intelligent? Possible. It would be dishonest to say that people who choose to believe are stupid people - however they are willfully ignorant and self deceptive, choosing to ignore those pesky facts that disprove their beliefs. You just might be an intelligent person with a high potential to learn, but sadly you choose to remain ignorant and superstitious.

Rational Christian? That's an oxymoron.

Confident in your belief? More likely blinded by them. You're like the Knight in that Monty Python skit "The Holly Grail" screaming "'tis merely a flesh wound!" every time your claims and reasoning lose a sizable chunk to reality.

Dorky, Atheism is a system of faith like bald is a hair color. You cannot define the absence of something as simultaneously the presence of that thing.

It would be like saying

hunger is a food.
Silence is a song.
Barefoot is a shoe.
Not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Not playing baseball is a sport
Death is a new life form
Walking is a car model
Health is a disease
Skipping lunch is a meal

And your idea of debunking me is ignoring the truth and making a pathetic attempt at redefining those pesky definitions that utterly destroy your arguments.

It's actually pretty revealing that the best insult you can deliver is trying to paint me with the brush that defines you. Deep down y...

Dorky, Atheism is a system of faith like bald is a hair color. You cannot define the absence of something as simultaneously the presence of that thing.

It would be like saying

hunger is a food.
Silence is a song.
Barefoot is a shoe.
Not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Not playing baseball is a sport
Death is a new life form
Walking is a car model
Health is a disease
Skipping lunch is a meal

And your idea of debunking me is ignoring the truth and making a pathetic attempt at redefining those pesky definitions that utterly destroy your arguments.

It's actually pretty revealing that the best insult you can deliver is trying to paint me with the brush that defines you. Deep down you know what a sham you and your beliefs are. You remind me of those people that are unfaithful to their spouses and feel guilty about it so attempt to accuse them of unfaithfulness in order to hide your own shame.

The responsibility of proof doesn't come on me, it comes upon you, the claimant. Anytime I, or nearly everyone else in clipmarks, takes the time to educate you about your bottom feeding stupidity it is out of an act to halt the viral spread of your misinformation.

The myth you believe has the same thing in common as every other myth that was created and/or discarded by mankind - no proof. Only a willingness (or desperation) to believe keeps it alive.

The thing here that is showing how stupid you are is that you keep beating the same empty argument that non belief is belief. Bzzz. Wrong. Let me repeat this one thing for you since you are incapable of getting it the first time : You cannot d...

The responsibility of proof doesn't come on me, it comes upon you, the claimant. Anytime I, or nearly everyone else in clipmarks, takes the time to educate you about your bottom feeding stupidity it is out of an act to halt the viral spread of your misinformation.

The myth you believe has the same thing in common as every other myth that was created and/or discarded by mankind - no proof. Only a willingness (or desperation) to believe keeps it alive.

The thing here that is showing how stupid you are is that you keep beating the same empty argument that non belief is belief. Bzzz. Wrong. Let me repeat this one thing for you since you are incapable of getting it the first time : You cannot define the absence of something as simultaneously the presence of that thing.

You keep trying to insist that people disprove god - Bzzt. Wrong x2. You made the claim, prove it. Get back to us when you can do that.

And go read a definition of rationality for Christ's sake. You sound like a fucking moron every time you accuse someone else of being irrational.

You believing it so doesn't make it so, Oort. You're full of ego, you know; so convinced you're right and that no one else could possibly have insight that you don't. So like a rabid televangelist. You've abandoned logic and reason so far that you don't even realize what a caricature you're become. Logic and science cannot prove that there is no God, so you are basing your opinions entirely on unfounded assertions. That makes your atheism a faith system. You can call it wrong all you want — you wouldn't be the first person in denial about it — but that doesn't make it so.

You're the one who has made the claim (not I), that God isn't real, and you cannot prove that rationally. This is what ...

You believing it so doesn't make it so, Oort. You're full of ego, you know; so convinced you're right and that no one else could possibly have insight that you don't. So like a rabid televangelist. You've abandoned logic and reason so far that you don't even realize what a caricature you're become. Logic and science cannot prove that there is no God, so you are basing your opinions entirely on unfounded assertions. That makes your atheism a faith system. You can call it wrong all you want — you wouldn't be the first person in denial about it — but that doesn't make it so.

You're the one who has made the claim (not I), that God isn't real, and you cannot prove that rationally. This is what you do not understand. Try to prove that God doesn't exist. You cannot, without evoking your Atheistic Dogma, which has nothing of veracity backing it up.

I am the one being rationally, silly man. You are the one in the midst of a meltdown. I think you need to take a very close look at yourself before you make another silly accusation.