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6-26-2006 3:38 PM649 views
Go W! We need to hear more of this!
56 Comments   | Add a Comment
6-26-2006 3:42 PM
knslyr
Good video.
6-26-2006 3:46 PM
egoldstein
you have to be kidding me. these scare tactics sound like something that would be said in china as an excuse for blocking freedom of the press.

6-26-2006 3:50 PM
Godfrey Daniel
Context, Eric. Context. So important.

This is so overdue.
6-26-2006 3:53 PM
Kore7
This is so overdue.
Yeah, we still gotta get the press back for what they did to Nixon...
6-26-2006 3:57 PM
brazilnut72
you have to be kidding me. these scare tactics sound like something that would be said in china as an excuse for blocking freedom of the press.
No...the fact that no action has been taken up until now is proof that we DON'T live in China. However, no society can long stand in the face of unpunished treason--which is exactly what we have here. Action MUST be taken, as has been taken in during all successful US wars.
6-26-2006 4:10 PM
BigBadWolf
No Bush fan anymore but damn if he didn't call this right. The press needs to be put in it's place. They seem to think they have Carte Blanch lately.
6-26-2006 4:34 PM
RecordSage
It's not so much putting press here or there or freedom of speech - what it is is some common sense... do you put your efforts to report on anything you find out above and beyond anything else, thus hurting the country and its people in the process? The press seems to think that they're doing this great deed by doing full public disclosure of sensitive security information and that's utterly careless of them to put it mildly, and certainly could be looked at as treason if you consider the fact that their jeopardizing security of the country for the sake of selling of a few dead trees.

The ironic thing is that all of these 'heroes' reporting on the NSA wiretapping and now this are doing the...
6-26-2006 5:04 PM
Godfrey Daniel
I've found that if I'm patient, there's a good chance someone will express my thoughts well, saving me the time and effort.

Well said, [b]Mr Sage[/b, and thanks.
6-26-2006 5:04 PM
egoldstein
sage, i would argue that the "us against them" mentality that you refer to is precisely what maks the USA so great. we don't have blind faith in our government and we don't get forced into nationalistic beliefs out of fear or intimidation.

i find it very healthy that there is skepticism about our government...and in this case, i don't see how anyone could argue that this administration at the very least should be dealt with skeptically.
6-26-2006 5:09 PM
Godfrey Daniel
There is quite a distance between reasonably skeptical--notice I avoid the ism--and being cravenly cynical
6-26-2006 6:24 PM
RecordSage
Eric, not when people are cutting our heads off and others trying to launch nuclear missiles our way. Then inter-bickering isn't so great. If you don't faith in your government - you have a choice to elect a different one, but undermining the one that's been elected isn't a way to get things done right. There are people laying their lives on the line daily, while we sip Starbucks and swim with sharks in Florida... Putting out information that may give any info to the enemy isn't a good way to win wars. The other side doesn't even need spies - they have NYT to get all of the info. You can't just look at this whole thing with 'liberty or death' blinders on, it's not that simple any longer...
6-26-2006 6:36 PM
RecordSage
It's the job of the administration to protect you and yours. You say 'at the very least they should be dealt with skeptically"... based on what? Based on the fact that the nation hasn't been attacked since 9/11? Or have you seen anything of any value of abuse of things like the NSA wiretapping or similar programs on US citizens? Can you honestly tell me that your liberties have been ACTUALLY, not on paper or based on some report somewhere, but ACTUALLY been altered in any way and your life has changed since Clinton was in power? I know - I can't. Has the current administration with allies prevented attacks? Well, we know for a fact about a few recently and I'll bet there are numerous ...
6-26-2006 6:40 PM
RecordSage
I don't think it makes much sense for the citizens of this country only to unite when thousands of our people get killed. Somehow all of the criticism of an administration etc. seems to evaporate after those events and that doesn't seem right to me. We shouldn't have to lose a ton of people to stand united as one nation against any evil that may want to attack us. And we should always put what's best for the country and its people before any political interests. Nothing wrong with being patriotic in a real sense, as long as we don't turn nationalistic.
6-26-2006 6:54 PM
Godfrey Daniel
adj. - nationalist, nationalistic -- (devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation including promoting the interests of one country over those of others; "nationalist aspirations"
Sounds good to me.
6-26-2006 7:08 PM
skwirlinator
I HATE the media!
6-27-2006 12:34 PM
TheCatWhisperer
egoldstein said:

we don't have blind faith in our government and we don't get forced into nationalistic beliefs out of fear or intimidation
Huh... wanna run that by the Dixie Chicks? I think they have a differnt view.. they still can't get played on many souther radio stations...
6-27-2006 1:05 PM
egoldstein
good point Cat!
6-27-2006 1:33 PM
Godfrey Daniel
The Dixie Chicks are suffering because they are disliked. Anyone can say or believe what they will. To expect others to like you, regardless what you say or do, is silly. For an entertainer likability is a major factor, regardless the talent.
6-27-2006 1:39 PM
brazilnut72
The Dixie Chicks are suffering because they are disliked.
Once again, GD hits the nail on the head.
6-27-2006 1:44 PM
TheCatWhisperer
Really? Cause they were VERY well liked before thier comment. Now, why did they become so unliked so fast?

The people, blinded by thier zeolous fever over the war, and proper proding from the right media outlets & public figures, turned on them in a heart beat, simply because they had an opinion. And you know what? if they had of said it today instead of now, most people would have agreed with them (since the president is soo well liked at the moment... 29-37% approval rating?).

Another thing to note: Their popularity actually went up in the northern states, they are still selling out shows, winning grammy awards, etc... It is ONLY the southern states who are still soo bitter.

It's rather sad.
6-27-2006 1:53 PM
fivexfast
What about the LA Times and the Wall Street Journal? they printed the same info in their papers...
6-27-2006 1:54 PM
fivexfast
<i>The argument from the right wing on the NSA spying is that no one can say that their civil rights have personally been violated, so no one’s civil rights have been violated. Well, if the NYTimes article is “treason” they should have to prove that national security has been damaged by showing us an example of a terrorist moving money after the story was published who circumvented the SWIFT banks to avoid detection and was able to perpetuate a terrorist act. Otherwise, no one was harmed, so how is that treason? Such a lot of hot air blowing around on this one. </i>
6-27-2006 1:56 PM
Godfrey Daniel
Hi, 5. I think you may be lost.
6-27-2006 1:58 PM
Godfrey Daniel
[i]please disregard the previous. it is i who is lost
6-27-2006 1:58 PM
fivexfast
how so?
6-27-2006 1:58 PM
brazilnut72
Really? Cause they were VERY well liked before thier comment. Now, why did they become so unliked so fast?
Um...you answered your own question. It was because of their comment. This cry-baby generation needs to learn that WHAT YOU SAY HAS CONSEQUENCES. What they said (and continue to say) made a lot of people mad...and people have no responsibility to go buy CD's of people they are mad at--or play their songs on the radio.

6-27-2006 2:01 PM
Godfrey Daniel
I had just commented on the Dixie Chicks thing, and forgot the topic of the clip. So then when you commented on topic I thought you were making it off topic and at the wrong clip. d'oh!
6-27-2006 2:10 PM
TheCatWhisperer
No, your not getting it... My point isn't that the dixie chicks said something people didn't like & they were shunned. That's fine.

My point is they said something that was thier opinion. That opinion was vastly disliked in one region. Why? In MY opinion, it is because there is such an airof patriotism, and saying anything agains the President, and therefor the country is unfathomable. This is BLIND faith. I may not like what Stevie nix says, personally, I think she is an airhead, but I still like her music.

The people of the southern states are so blinded by tthier patriotism, they can't distinguish opionon from music. They have banned them from the airwaves because they didn't ...
6-27-2006 2:12 PM
arifsali
Folks, if we're talking newspapers committing treason agains their own country , then we might as well also talk about martial law and such absurdities in US.
6-27-2006 2:13 PM
TheCatWhisperer
My point isn't that the dixie chicks said something people didn't like & they were shunned. That's fine.
Let me clarify that..

It's fine is someone doesn't like an artistor an individual because they don't have hte same opinion, but for such a wide group to do it just seems strange. Why wouldn't they be shunned everywhere?

My issue is with the way it happend and how final it is. It's been a couple years, and people can't even PLAY thier music on the air becasue of it.. it just is ignorant.
6-27-2006 2:24 PM
RecordSage
@TheCatWhisperer
Nothing sad or hard to understand about it. Certainly you can dislike someone and still listen to their music, heck we still like Babs in Hello Dolly and Alec Baldwin in Malice and "Glengary Glen Ross"... however, it's a question of throwing your financial support into the hands of people who dis your country and that's where for a lot of people a line gets drawn. Dixie Chicks aren't the Beatles, i.e. they're not the only band on the planet of this caliber... so some people are so put off that they simply don't want to support them.

My ex-boss had an agreement with me that when we go to lunch - there's no music in the car (even though both of us intense fans of music). ...
6-27-2006 2:28 PM
brazilnut72
My issue is with the way it happend and how final it is. It's been a couple years, and people can't even PLAY thier music on the air becasue of it.. it just is ignorant.

People in this country forget way too easily. Case in point (and to bring things back on topic) is the NYT, who, after 9-11, were calling on the administration to do exactly the thing that the NYT has now sabotaged.

The fact that a "certain region" (what region could that be, I wonder) has still not forgiven the Ditzy Chicks (and I do not recall them asking for forgiveness) is truly refreshing. At least somewhere people remember and hold people accountable.
6-27-2006 2:29 PM
RecordSage
And radio stations get to make their own call as to what they play or not, regardless of reasons. Perhaps they don't play them because they lose public support they had otherwise, thus advertising dips, thus revenue dips - I'm sure they're sensitive to such matters regardless of the causes and ideologies as well they should be, since they're trying to conduct business as anyone else would. That doesn't make them ignorant, just better business organizations.

And they aren't shunned "everywhere" just as no one else is shunned everywhere. Contrary to popular media reporting - there are ton of people who support the country, the administration (including the President) and there are others w...
6-27-2006 2:36 PM
TheCatWhisperer
FYI: they didn't bash the country.. they don't dislike the country.. what they said was: "Just so you know, we're ashamed the President of the United States is from Texas."

Hell, I'm ashamed he's human

6-27-2006 2:53 PM
knslyr
The people of the southern states are so blinded by their patriotism, they can't distinguish opinion from music. They have banned them from the airwaves because they didn't share the same opinion.
So people in the southern states are unable to distinguish opinion from music? Are they stupid? Are they ignorant? I suppose from your statement it is ALL southern states? Please, enlighten us on your findings.

Since I'm one person, I can't speak for ALL the people living in southern states, but I can tell you what I didn't appreciate about the Dixie Chicks.

At a time when the United States believed there to be a legitimate threat and common enemy... At a time when the United...
6-27-2006 2:53 PM
knslyr
And calling southern residents ignorant or stupid because they "can't distinguish music from opinion" is well... ignorant and stupid. Is it so unreasonable to stop using a product based on the philosophies of its creator/distributor? Do we not boycott corporations all the time based on who they are selling to or how they perform their research or where their investment dollars go? So how is this different?

You also must realize that for entertainers, the "talent" is only part of the package. If this fact weren't true, 75% of today's popular music would be gone. Today's music celebrities are about how they dress, how they party, who they sleep with, what they overdose on, how violent is...
6-27-2006 2:54 PM
knslyr
And don't for an instance think the Dixie Chicks "stand" for anything. They are out to make a quick buck and garnish as much free PR as the next media whore.

After the initial backlash of the comment, Natalie issued an apology.

Why? I thought she had principals, I thought she was standing tough. Wrong. She (and her band members) saw their audience and target market make their dissatisfaction with the "Dixie Chick Persona" known the only way they knew how... stop listening... stop buying. And it worked.

So why is Natalie suddenly taking back her apology and "standing tough" on what she believes? Because the political and social climate has changed, and the Dixie Chicks have a new album.

Big surprise.
6-27-2006 2:58 PM
TheCatWhisperer
Hrm, though you make some good points, I still think the reation of the southern states is over the top. There's still no answer to why the northern states have sold out the majority of the Chick's concerts, while in the south they are having to cancel shows...

As for airing diry laundry... huh? They said they were ashemd the president was a texan.. taht's not airing laundry.. taht's stating a point. Airing laundry would have been: "Our president used to be a drunkard". or "our last president liked to screw the interns".. that's dirty laundry.
6-27-2006 3:01 PM
knslyr
Airing dirtly laundry is complaining about "your family" in front of people who "aren't your family."
6-27-2006 3:01 PM
Geekette
I'm actually surprised by the hullabaloo about the NYT article. Focus on financing avenues as a combat measure has been mentioned several times since 9/11, and several regulations have been enforced to this effect (e.g. all $transfers 10k+ automatically reported by banks, etc). Therefore, I naturally assumed that monitoring of monetary transactions through global clearing houses was a given, with SWIFT being the logical first place to look. I also thought everyone else had the same assumptions. So, the NYT article did not "expose" or tell me anything new.

The most it did was provide a wry reflection that American residents hiding moolah offshore might be pissing with renewed fear...
6-27-2006 3:03 PM
TheCatWhisperer
PS: i'm personally not a big fan of the chicks, my g/f loves them and I got her some sweet tix for thier concert here ina couple months. And I agree that Natialie's waffleing is a bit odd, but what would I do in her shoes...

She did a concert, where she simply spoke her heart (let's giver her the benefit of the doubt and assume she is not taking sides for the money), and then she comes back to find most of her "base" hsa disowned her. Now she has the record company breathing down her neck to fix it.

I might be pressured to issue an apology, especially if I saw all I had worked hard for about to dissapear....

After that seeing that thos lost fans still can't forgive me, I'd say screw it ...
6-27-2006 3:05 PM
TheCatWhisperer
Geekette: Yeah, I'm not getting the big deal on teh article either... for the past month, there have been reports on teh NSA datamining websites, persoanl records, etc.. I just assumed they were watching the banks as well.. I figured they'de been doing that since 9-11, when they pledged to identify those funding terrorism and freeze the accts.
6-27-2006 3:08 PM
usmc6531
They got what they deserve.....they are one sided, and hypocritical...
6-27-2006 4:55 PM
Kore7
As has been pointed out, monitoring of banking transactions by the Treasury Department has been public knowledge from day one of the introduction of the PATRIOT Act. Bush himself made reference to the practice in several televised speeches.

Did you press-haters hate the press just as much during the Clinton years, for instance? There is no way the impeachment process could have gone so far as it did without the help of the press.

This is what the media does in our democracy. It oversees, criticizes, and pokes holes in the agenda of every institution since its inception. Every administration hates the press for making its job hard! During this time of war and unprecedented sec...
6-27-2006 4:59 PM
Kore7
What would you haters suggest? That the mass media outlets cease all operation during times of war? (Would that include Somalia and Kosovo?) Or just cease publication of any fact that could be construed as inconvenient to the president's desires?

Finally I assume you guys also save as much wrath for the following treasonous media outlets: Fox News, Wall Street Journal, The Economist, Christian Science Monitor, Weekly Standard, National Review, American Spectator, Limbaugh, Hannity, Glenn Beck, Belief Net, Power Line, Instapundit, Free Republic, Michelle Malkin, etc.

They're all part of the popular press, and rightly so. Or do right-leaning outlets get a pass? Once a Democrat is in ...
6-27-2006 5:03 PM
jklugman
Kore7 said:

This is what the media does in our democracy. It oversees, criticizes, and pokes holes in the agenda of every institution since its inception. Every administration hates the press for making its job hard! During this time of war and unprecedented secrecy is when we need the oversight of the press the most, when governmental powers are most likely to be abused. Conservatives, who intrinsically distrust government, understand the importance of oversight at all levels at all times. And they're right.
Well said Kore7.
6-27-2006 5:29 PM
brazilnut72
What would you haters suggest? That the mass media outlets cease all operation during times of war?
Assuming that I am classified with the "haters" group, may I just sugest a return to the practices of the press during WWII? Is that too much to ask?
6-27-2006 6:21 PM
RecordSage
jklugman, so if Kore7 is right and conservatives are right - why aren't you a conservative then?

And as for what to ask the press - simple, DON'T UNDERMINE WAR EFFORT... there's plenty to report all over the world without disclosing military or national secrets for the sake of... well, nobody but the enemy.
6-27-2006 6:34 PM
RecordSage
And Kore7, with right-leaning people being totally behind the troops, totally against the terrorists and and pro-US - yes, they get a pass for the time being. The whole nation should have the same sentiments during a war, if it wants to remain a nation. You want to take on Bush for drinking 40 years ago - fine, but think about taking attention off the ball during a war. He was elected into this office and under his direction you didn't have a bomb explode in your backyard. It's not due to Dixie Chicks comments, nor is it due to Dan Rather or even Al Gore - it's due to cops, FBI, CIA and other people working in this administration, under the President. The mainstream press here sucks and...
6-27-2006 7:44 PM
Kore7
jklugman, so if Kore7 is right and conservatives are right - why aren't you a conservative then?
It's more of a question of how and why conservatives lost their skepticism of government and the power-hungry people we elect to run it. Up until recently, conservatives have had a valid claim for distrusting government more.

You didn't answer my questions about support for Somalia and Kosovo, though I understand why.

I'm trying to find out if you value partisanship to the GOP above all other issues. Because if you do, it's pointless to debate any of this. Do you claim you have zero skepticism for our President's ability to protect us? He can do no wrong ever, no matter wha...
6-27-2006 8:50 PM
RecordSage
Nope, nothing to find out - have no attachment to GOP at all. To be totally honest, after a number of years living under the communist party - I'm pretty much done with parties.

As for Clinton - I was totally opposed to most things he did, but you'd never hear me saying to anyone outside or waiver in any way shape or form to disrespect the US government. He was the elected President and thus he was my President as he was yours. Did I respect him as a man who cheated on his wife, during work hours, with someone half his age and then lied to my face about it? Of course not, but I was just as pro-US then as I am now. And since I wasn't into his politics - I didn't vote for him, but he was...
6-27-2006 8:56 PM
RecordSage
And I don't have zero skepticism, I'm just looking at the record of protecting America since 9/11. As for the scale of trust - I'm not sure exactly how accurate any answer would be, but certainly much higher than Clinton, Carter or even his father, who should've listened to General S. and finished it off in 93.

Nobody's advocating having blind 100% trust, but what's advocated is to use reason and common sense and protect your own country, not undermine it for the sake of partisan politics or hatred of a man and as Kennedy pointed out "Think what you can do for your country!". Wise words from a Democrat... too bad we don't seem to have those anymore, just the ones that accuse our troops of...
6-27-2006 9:24 PM
clipette
oh my dear lord jesus the NYT is gonna deliver us right into the hands of those evildoers! I'm so afraid! I'm so afraid! Let the government do whatever it wants! I don't need freedom of the press. I'm not a rational independent thinker.W is such a good guy. I trust him he's simple like me. He goes fishing! I love fishing! and he hunts hes a man's man if some ay-rab comes up to him and tires to pull anything funny Dubya could shoot him. I'm so scared! I could be blown to bits any second. I have to go to mcdonalds and get really fat to cushon myself from the blow. I have to get the latest britney album. I have to watch tv all day long. I have to drive my suv to wal mart and stock up on chips,...
6-27-2006 9:30 PM
RecordSage
Nice acting there, clipette...
6-27-2006 9:37 PM
clipette
thanks RS
6-27-2006 10:18 PM
brazilnut72
Wow clipette,

I have never seen so many cliches packed into one post. Impressive!
6-28-2006 3:10 PM
Kore7
Sage, at least you admitted that you retain some sense of skepticism and that mistakes were made by the White House's "war on terror".

My original point was that it was nonsensical to attack the straw man of the "media" because we all get news from the media. But then I got you to admit that the right-leaning press "gets a pass" for being consistently pro-war. However, this is evidently not the case and hasn't been for years. E.g.:

* Why conservatives must not vote for Bush
* [url=http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/84115818-22AF-4640-BAF0-7832828780A7/]Conservative Christians Criticize Republicans ...
6-28-2006 3:14 PM
Kore7
I say if your primary concern is security, you should be actively encouraging and seeking out critics of your stance to make certain your position is as unassailable as possible. This is what intellectual honesty is about. If you only read sources that confirm your pre-existing opinions, how will you know when you're wrong? (Could you be wrong? Can you be misled?) You think it's in the politicians' interests to notify you of the shortcomings of their policies? I don't think so. Be grateful there's a media to do it for you.
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