It has nothing to do with whether I believe these "people" are oppressed or not. For several reasons:

a) Killing innocent people is a self-defeating proposition. No amount of propaganda can erase the fact that you committed mass murder.

b) The ticking bomb scenario is a fallacy. In order for it to be possible, it would require a highly improbable confluence of conditions. In your scenario I would say that the attack was already stopped, stockpiling such large amounts of material is difficult without detection.

c) Who gets to decide who is and who isn't a terrorist, without sufficient proof, anyone could be. The Congress just apologized to a German citizen who was tortured by Syria on beh...

It has nothing to do with whether I believe these "people" are oppressed or not. For several reasons:

a) Killing innocent people is a self-defeating proposition. No amount of propaganda can erase the fact that you committed mass murder.

b) The ticking bomb scenario is a fallacy. In order for it to be possible, it would require a highly improbable confluence of conditions. In your scenario I would say that the attack was already stopped, stockpiling such large amounts of material is difficult without detection.

c) Who gets to decide who is and who isn't a terrorist, without sufficient proof, anyone could be. The Congress just apologized to a German citizen who was tortured by Syria on behest of the U.S. Oops, sorry our bad.

d) Torture is unreliable. The kind of information that your talking about, if it is in fact possessed by such an operative, would be time sensitive, by the time you beat the crap out of the guy, he may tell you something, that may, may turn out to be true, lets say five hours ago, but its not true any more. And if your talking about long term intelligence, such as cell structure and network organization, its best to try to turn him than to destroy him.

e) Torture is torture, and it is wrong. Let me clarify that, it is evil. It is the realm of the bully and the coward. Its not about intelligence, its about punishment, turning guards into judge, jury and executioner. Such acts speak more about the lack of moral compass of the torturer than the object of the torture. Congratulations, you turned a terrorist into a whimpering victim. Way to go!

Even the Israelis have all but admitted that torture and intelligence really don't mix. Now if you want to oppress a people, make them live in fear of you and break their will to resist, then torture fits the bill.

Cont....

Funny thing, in all the movies I seen, the torturers where the bad guys, and the audience knew they where the bad guys because they would torture. But now the rule of situational morality says, if the guy drowning, or beating the hell out of someone speaks English with an American accent, its all good.

Ultimately it doesn't work, no matter how satisfying it may feel or how tough you think you it makes you look. And as a Christians (and I consider myself one), look at the most famous torture victim of all. he was considered a threat by the Romans and the Temple priest, and he was a man of peace.

I rarely agree with McCain on just about anything, but he was right, its not about "t...

Cont....

Funny thing, in all the movies I seen, the torturers where the bad guys, and the audience knew they where the bad guys because they would torture. But now the rule of situational morality says, if the guy drowning, or beating the hell out of someone speaks English with an American accent, its all good.

Ultimately it doesn't work, no matter how satisfying it may feel or how tough you think you it makes you look. And as a Christians (and I consider myself one), look at the most famous torture victim of all. he was considered a threat by the Romans and the Temple priest, and he was a man of peace.

I rarely agree with McCain on just about anything, but he was right, its not about "them" its about "us". Once you go down that slippery slope, once you turn the switch of sadism on, do you think its so easy to turn it off?

I believe waterboarding or worse would be in order for terrorists, it sure is alot more humane than what they do to our captives such as having your head sawed off with a knife or shot execution style. The enemy seems to get a pass more or less now regarding just how humane they are with captives, seems waterboarding trumps beheadings and a bullet in the head now.

The bleeding hearts would rather do nothing to try and prevent mass murder, say by a nuke in the hands of terrorists or a nasty biological agent. Better in their minds we just die quitely and be politically correct.

The left (mainly) seem more concerned with treating terrorists like humane beings, to me they are not, the...

I believe waterboarding or worse would be in order for terrorists, it sure is alot more humane than what they do to our captives such as having your head sawed off with a knife or shot execution style. The enemy seems to get a pass more or less now regarding just how humane they are with captives, seems waterboarding trumps beheadings and a bullet in the head now.

The bleeding hearts would rather do nothing to try and prevent mass murder, say by a nuke in the hands of terrorists or a nasty biological agent. Better in their minds we just die quitely and be politically correct.

The left (mainly) seem more concerned with treating terrorists like humane beings, to me they are not, they have absolutely no regard for human life and they have been proving it for decades.

The left is fixated in thinking anyone can achieve a peaceful outcome with terrorists through dialog.

If we were fighting a "normal" war with an identifiable enemy things would certainly be different, I guess they simply can not see that there is a difference.

That is certainly a misguided and revanchist way of thinking and proves my point precisely. It has nothing to do with being politically correct. If you want to be a coward and a bully, go ahead. Besides, if they have a nuke and want to die, I am sure they would hold out long enough for it to explode.

False dichotomies rear their ugly head again. Talk about moral relativism. "We" are not bad, because "they" are so horrible. Instead of judging acts on their own moral weight we have value judgments based on what the "other" would do.

As for conventional war, you mean like WW2, where the Nazis would slaughter create extermination camps and raise entire villages to the ground or like the Japan...

That is certainly a misguided and revanchist way of thinking and proves my point precisely. It has nothing to do with being politically correct. If you want to be a coward and a bully, go ahead. Besides, if they have a nuke and want to die, I am sure they would hold out long enough for it to explode.

False dichotomies rear their ugly head again. Talk about moral relativism. "We" are not bad, because "they" are so horrible. Instead of judging acts on their own moral weight we have value judgments based on what the "other" would do.

As for conventional war, you mean like WW2, where the Nazis would slaughter create extermination camps and raise entire villages to the ground or like the Japanese who would work their prisoners to death in disease infested hellholes. Maybe the more civilized Russians and their wonderfully cold Gulags, or perhaps recreate Saddam's rape rooms, oh wait too late on that last one, never mind.

Again, torture may make you feel good, all macho, but it doesn't work and ends up doing more harm than good, to your own cause. It also will not cover up your own insecurities.

dl211, you don't reveal yourself to be any kind of genius. All you demonstrate is reducing yourself to your enemies level. Torture will provide you the answer you want to hear but that won't make it the truth.

I'm no genius, however I do accept the fact these fanatics really do want to kill us, something your side can't seem to really grasp. Whether torture works or not is of lesser value to me, what concerns me more is your lack of concern of lives over proceedure, just in order to stay "above" our enemies, that's the main issue. The left are perfectly content to do anything but fight these terrorists.

Appeasement is your answer to everything. If you are dense eno...

dl211, you don't reveal yourself to be any kind of genius. All you demonstrate is reducing yourself to your enemies level. Torture will provide you the answer you want to hear but that won't make it the truth.

I'm no genius, however I do accept the fact these fanatics really do want to kill us, something your side can't seem to really grasp. Whether torture works or not is of lesser value to me, what concerns me more is your lack of concern of lives over proceedure, just in order to stay "above" our enemies, that's the main issue. The left are perfectly content to do anything but fight these terrorists.

Appeasement is your answer to everything. If you are dense enough to think you can appease terrorits through dialog to make them want to stop killing us then you are naive and that is what puts us all in danger.

Conservatives who blindly follow the course taken by Bush and the neo-conservatives put us in more jeopardy than anyone else could hope to. There is not much debate at all that Afghanistan was a just response. So to characterize anybody as not wanting to do anything is just a propaganda attempt by you.

Iraq is total folly, unjust, unethical, immoral, and criminal. It does nothing but create enemies and serve as a recruiting tool for jihadists. Bush and Cheney have done the work of removing a government that Osama Bin Laden wanted removed. Bravo Bush!

The invasion of Iraq destroyed the opportunities of moderate reformers in Iran giving rise to Ahmadinejad. The US being in Iraq brought him t...

Conservatives who blindly follow the course taken by Bush and the neo-conservatives put us in more jeopardy than anyone else could hope to. There is not much debate at all that Afghanistan was a just response. So to characterize anybody as not wanting to do anything is just a propaganda attempt by you.

Iraq is total folly, unjust, unethical, immoral, and criminal. It does nothing but create enemies and serve as a recruiting tool for jihadists. Bush and Cheney have done the work of removing a government that Osama Bin Laden wanted removed. Bravo Bush!

The invasion of Iraq destroyed the opportunities of moderate reformers in Iran giving rise to Ahmadinejad. The US being in Iraq brought him to power and keeps him in power. Bravo once again Bush.

Bush and the neocons had no understanding of the culture of this region and only wanted to extend US hegemony and try to control the regions oil production. This wasn't about democracy, safety, or security. It was about lying and working to destroy our own constitution more than Osama Bin Laden could ever hope to. Good work.

Conservatives have been full of hypocrisy and agenda driven. They turn a blind eye on the influence of oil dollars going to Saudi Arabia and the Saudi funding of radical islam. The Bush's and the House of Faud have been in bed together for decades. Iran is always made the scapegoat. What a crock a manure.

All you display is an individual who wants to pull the trigger and think about the ramifications afterwards. Texans should never be allowed near the grounds of the White House. When will you grow up and stop living in John Wayne movies?

I am glad that you gave up on trying to defend torture as being effective or serving any purpose.

Let's put this in a different situation, and see if it holds. Would this be okay if it was used on one of our own citizens? Would this be okay if the victim was white,christian, and straight? If it was a member of your family, suspected of being a terroreist?

Remember the Geneva Convention? Remember our own POW's who have been tortured? The Spanish Inquisition?How about the witch hunts, where innocent people were tortured into confessing to something they never did?

There is a poem at the Holocaust Memorial here in Boston.

When the Nazis came for the communists,

I remained silent;

I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democr...

read more»

Let's put this in a different situation, and see if it holds. Would this be okay if it was used on one of our own citizens? Would this be okay if the victim was white,christian, and straight? If it was a member of your family, suspected of being a terroreist?

Remember the Geneva Convention? Remember our own POW's who have been tortured? The Spanish Inquisition?How about the witch hunts, where innocent people were tortured into confessing to something they never did?

There is a poem at the Holocaust Memorial here in Boston.

When the Nazis came for the communists,

I remained silent;

I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,

I remained silent;

I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,

I did not speak out;

I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,

I remained silent;

I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,

there was no one left to speak out.

When you start to see one group of people as less than human, you start to see us all that way.

I blindly follow no one, I disagree with GWB on many issues except al Qaeda. True most had no problem with ousting the Taliban from Afghanistan, also true most had no problem with Iraq until the polls started changing and no WMDs were found in Iraq.

According to you we have a "criminal war" in Iraq, and problems in and with Iran is America's fault, or more specifically, GWB and conservatives.

Like Al Sharpton pulling the race card at the drop of a hat, you pull the oil card in relation to Iraq which is just as dopey.

I'm no fan of the Saudis, I do not trust them but they are somewhat of an ally in that part of the world.

You think conservatives should be limited in where we ca...

I blindly follow no one, I disagree with GWB on many issues except al Qaeda. True most had no problem with ousting the Taliban from Afghanistan, also true most had no problem with Iraq until the polls started changing and no WMDs were found in Iraq.

According to you we have a "criminal war" in Iraq, and problems in and with Iran is America's fault, or more specifically, GWB and conservatives.

Like Al Sharpton pulling the race card at the drop of a hat, you pull the oil card in relation to Iraq which is just as dopey.

I'm no fan of the Saudis, I do not trust them but they are somewhat of an ally in that part of the world.

You think conservatives should be limited in where we can and can not go in this country, sounds kind of like you’d like turn us into a communist police state.

By the way, I never gave up defending torture, if it was even remotely possible to prevent another 9/11 I’m all for it. I’d start with water boarding and escalate from there. The debate on torture is aimed at enemy combatants, not soldiers from a sovereign country that wear distinguishable uniforms.

Suppose a terrorist was captured and believed to have information that may prevent a nuclear detonation inside the US, what is your view of torture regarding him? Would you give your OK to have him tortured in hopes of obtaining that information and possibly saving untold thousands of lives?

Suppose John McCain was taken prisoner and forced to admit war crimes under torture. I guess he's a war criminal. That's not a hypothetical situation it actually happened.

You need to search around Clipmarks. Find the Clip where World War II veterans admitted that the best means they had of getting information from prisoners was a steak dinner and a game of chess. You just want to punish people you have an inherent hatred off. Period.

Al Sharpton has nothing to do with Iraq. You're ridiculous. General John Abizaid, CENTCOM commander has stated that the war in Iraq is all about oil. Paul Wolfowitz, neocon Bush cabinet member, stated the war in Iraq was about oil. Greenspan said, and then ba...

Suppose John McCain was taken prisoner and forced to admit war crimes under torture. I guess he's a war criminal. That's not a hypothetical situation it actually happened.

You need to search around Clipmarks. Find the Clip where World War II veterans admitted that the best means they had of getting information from prisoners was a steak dinner and a game of chess. You just want to punish people you have an inherent hatred off. Period.

Al Sharpton has nothing to do with Iraq. You're ridiculous. General John Abizaid, CENTCOM commander has stated that the war in Iraq is all about oil. Paul Wolfowitz, neocon Bush cabinet member, stated the war in Iraq was about oil. Greenspan said, and then back tracked, that the war in Iraq is about oil. Only a fool would believe the war in Iraq is not about controlling oil. There was no Al Qaeda in Iraq prior to our invasion. Talk about dopey.

Yes, the problems in Iran are George Bush and the neoconservatives fault.

Of course I don't literally believe Texans shouldn't be allowed on the White House grounds. I do literally believe that the machismo and self-centerdness of Texans makes them some of the worst candidates to represent our country.

The Pew Research Center in a release on January 16, 2003 states that the majority believes Bush has yet to make the case. At that time a two-thirds majority of the public continued to express qualified support for the idea of using military force to end the rule of Saddam Hussein, but with a caveat.

When individuals were asked if they "favor" or "oppose" military force given the condition "What to do if [weapons] inspectors find no weapons, but weapons inspectors can't assure Iraq has none" only 28% favor military force.

There was not wide spread support for invading Iraq.

like a typical leftwinger dodging a question, John McCain was a priosoner of war, he was not a terrorist engaged in terrorist activities and has nothing to do as a comparison, a difference you apparently can not see.

You are right, Al Sharpton is rediculous as was your rant about the Iraq War was for oil, that was a comparison in stupidity.

Check out audio & video reports about Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry and many more making their case against Iraq, obviously you was away prior to the start of the war...

I'll ask again, would you agree to torture (OF A TERRORIST) if it meant even a slight possibility of preventing hundreds of thousands of Am...

like a typical leftwinger dodging a question, John McCain was a priosoner of war, he was not a terrorist engaged in terrorist activities and has nothing to do as a comparison, a difference you apparently can not see.

You are right, Al Sharpton is rediculous as was your rant about the Iraq War was for oil, that was a comparison in stupidity.

Check out audio & video reports about Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry and many more making their case against Iraq, obviously you was away prior to the start of the war...

I'll ask again, would you agree to torture (OF A TERRORIST) if it meant even a slight possibility of preventing hundreds of thousands of American lives?

But we already know the answer, of course you wouldn't, which puts you right in line with all the Democratic candidates running in 08. They would allow American citizens to die without even trying to prevent it. I'm sure this sits well with the terrorists, but I don't think a lot of Americans would approve.

Forget Dan Rather. This is what I base my decision on. My father is 81 years old and he can remember details about the bases he was stationed at in World War II. He can tell you where the mess halls were located, where the bunks were located, and he can tell you anecdotes of events that happened at those bases.

W is a lot younger than my Dad and he can tell you nothing about the time he "supposedly" spent on base in Alabama while he was suppose to be serving. All he has ever said is "I was there". What an obvious lie.

A document that has never been discredited is the report by W's commanding officer that he could not rate W because he had not seen him on base.

History gets "old" but it ...

Forget Dan Rather. This is what I base my decision on. My father is 81 years old and he can remember details about the bases he was stationed at in World War II. He can tell you where the mess halls were located, where the bunks were located, and he can tell you anecdotes of events that happened at those bases.

W is a lot younger than my Dad and he can tell you nothing about the time he "supposedly" spent on base in Alabama while he was suppose to be serving. All he has ever said is "I was there". What an obvious lie.

A document that has never been discredited is the report by W's commanding officer that he could not rate W because he had not seen him on base.

History gets "old" but it never stops being relevant.

Sorry you can't defend your beliefs.

You use hypothetical situations which aren't based on reality. It does not mean that such "said hypothetical" individual would not be interrogated with the most effective means available. The most effective means available does not include torture. Even the Israeli's no this.

Here's a relevant clip about false information acquired by putting humans in duress. What good does false information provide.

Newly-disclosed court documents reveal an innocent Egyptian national falsely confessed to a crime after FBI agents threatened to torture his family.

Many of the suggested post 9/11 security measures have gone uninitiated or unfinish...

You use hypothetical situations which aren't based on reality. It does not mean that such "said hypothetical" individual would not be interrogated with the most effective means available. The most effective means available does not include torture. Even the Israeli's no this.

Here's a relevant clip about false information acquired by putting humans in duress. What good does false information provide.

Newly-disclosed court documents reveal an innocent Egyptian national falsely confessed to a crime after FBI agents threatened to torture his family.

Many of the suggested post 9/11 security measures have gone uninitiated or unfinished under the Bush administration and the former republican congress. Republicans have no basis to lecture anyone about security.

Since George Bush has arrived the world has become a much more dangerous place.

Republicans have nothing to offer the U.S. but fear.

Since George Bush has arrived the world has become a much more dangerous place.

Republicans have nothing to offer the U.S. but fear.

You know al Qaeda was here long before GWB arrived in DC.

Your pal Bill Clinton could have prevented 9/11 but didn't. Guess he should have feared OBL more.

Your are so full of hatred of GWB that you can only see everything bad in this world as being his fault?

You know fear is a pretty good ally, if you fear fire, that fear may keep you from sticking your hand in the flames. The far-left does fear, they fear that moderates and conservatives will not buy into their BS, and that fear is justified.

Without fear in o...

Since George Bush has arrived the world has become a much more dangerous place.

Republicans have nothing to offer the U.S. but fear.

You know al Qaeda was here long before GWB arrived in DC.

Your pal Bill Clinton could have prevented 9/11 but didn't. Guess he should have feared OBL more.

Your are so full of hatred of GWB that you can only see everything bad in this world as being his fault?

You know fear is a pretty good ally, if you fear fire, that fear may keep you from sticking your hand in the flames. The far-left does fear, they fear that moderates and conservatives will not buy into their BS, and that fear is justified.

Without fear in our lives we'd all be as "smart" and the far left, living in la-la land, sipping margaritas and singing Combya.

BobbyR, don't even bother responding to Dl211. It just isn't worth the time or energy because after reading all of his comments and counterpoints, it is obvious that he is totally sold on the Republican and Neocon talking points and there is nothing in the world, and no fact in black and white you can offer that will ever get him to relent one little bit. He is not in the mood for honest discussion. As is so typical of his kind of so-called conservative, he is only interested in calling names, making the "other side" seem ridiculous, and spout the old slogans and platitudes that they have been spouting for the past couple years since the world has seen for itself what this president and his...

BobbyR, don't even bother responding to Dl211. It just isn't worth the time or energy because after reading all of his comments and counterpoints, it is obvious that he is totally sold on the Republican and Neocon talking points and there is nothing in the world, and no fact in black and white you can offer that will ever get him to relent one little bit. He is not in the mood for honest discussion. As is so typical of his kind of so-called conservative, he is only interested in calling names, making the "other side" seem ridiculous, and spout the old slogans and platitudes that they have been spouting for the past couple years since the world has seen for itself what this president and his murderous cohorts have brought us to. Perhaps one day he can have the pleasure of waterboarding someone, and watching them suffer and be tortured, so he can finally achieve a satisfying orgasm.

Ya know Dl211, you really are a disturbed person, and for that I take pity on you. Anyone who can engage in such vitriol and personal name-calling while defending the torture of other human beings, even after his own country has tried and convicted foreign war criminals for using waterboarding and other torture techniques, is obviously missing some synaptic connections. Hence, I will only thank you for offering your comments on my post and invite you not to bother yourself with commenting further unless of course you simply cannot control yourself and really need to release all the pent up anger and tension you obviously have built up in your system.

I am done with any further communicati...

Ya know Dl211, you really are a disturbed person, and for that I take pity on you. Anyone who can engage in such vitriol and personal name-calling while defending the torture of other human beings, even after his own country has tried and convicted foreign war criminals for using waterboarding and other torture techniques, is obviously missing some synaptic connections. Hence, I will only thank you for offering your comments on my post and invite you not to bother yourself with commenting further unless of course you simply cannot control yourself and really need to release all the pent up anger and tension you obviously have built up in your system.

I am done with any further communication with you, so rant away if you wish, but realize you are shouting at open air.

I think George Orwell said it best:

A Party member…is supposed to live in a continuous frenzy of hatred of foreign enemies and internal traitors, triumph over victories, and self-abasement before the power and wisdom of the Party. The discontents produced by his bare, unsatisfying life are deliberately turned outwards and dissipated by such devices as the Two Minutes Hate, and the speculations which might possibly induce a sceptical or rebellious attitude are killed in advance by his early acquired inner discipline…called, in Newspeak, crimestop. Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of n...

I think George Orwell said it best:

A Party member…is supposed to live in a continuous frenzy of hatred of foreign enemies and internal traitors, triumph over victories, and self-abasement before the power and wisdom of the Party. The discontents produced by his bare, unsatisfying life are deliberately turned outwards and dissipated by such devices as the Two Minutes Hate, and the speculations which might possibly induce a sceptical or rebellious attitude are killed in advance by his early acquired inner discipline…called, in Newspeak, crimestop. Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.

(h/t to C&R and A Tiny Revolution)