I have noticed that just bringing up things like this causes some believers to claim that atheists are hateful of god and religion, and they do so with what appears to be extreme prejudice.

So how do you talk to someone who believes that just mentioning the evils of this kind of faith needs to be questioned?

Any questioning of faith, to them, is tantamount to being an evil person, while never once noticing that a child's life has been taken because of it. They don't even notice!

All they notice is YOU being an evil person!

One such fellow claims that faith healing is not really condoned by the bible if "interpreted correctly as only his religion can do." (His religion, by the way, is r...

I have noticed that just bringing up things like this causes some believers to claim that atheists are hateful of god and religion, and they do so with what appears to be extreme prejudice.

So how do you talk to someone who believes that just mentioning the evils of this kind of faith needs to be questioned?

Any questioning of faith, to them, is tantamount to being an evil person, while never once noticing that a child's life has been taken because of it. They don't even notice!

All they notice is YOU being an evil person!

One such fellow claims that faith healing is not really condoned by the bible if "interpreted correctly as only his religion can do." (His religion, by the way, is responsible for thousands of child rapes and molestations, but he'll swear his religion is the only one being guided by Jesus.)

It's impossible to talk sense to someone who's been hypnotized by the promises of heaven and the threats of hell. Children are dying in their own hands and they still can't see that prayer and faith... is a fraud. Put your money in the collection basket... thank you... amen... and praise the Lord.

Why doesn't the Lord put an end to this nonsense? If their child dying was a "test of faith" and the child dies... did they get their answer?

What kind of a Lord kills a child... to test YOUR faith? Why wouldn't the lord make YOU sick, to see if you'd go to the hospital?

I would like to write them in prison and ask: "Did you get your answer?"

All they notice is YOU being an evil person!

Patience. Oh, I know that there are numerous instances when I've not displayed this trait but I have found that it in combination with empathy works wonders. Remember, they're parroting what they've heard instead of having really thought about it. And we must also realize that some people will never change or soften their position no matter what the evidence is. We're talking about changing a world view, not persuading someone that detergent A is better than detergent B. They have a vested interest in defending their views no matter what we may think. And sometimes what we say may not become apparent until much later when they ha...

All they notice is YOU being an evil person!

Patience. Oh, I know that there are numerous instances when I've not displayed this trait but I have found that it in combination with empathy works wonders. Remember, they're parroting what they've heard instead of having really thought about it. And we must also realize that some people will never change or soften their position no matter what the evidence is. We're talking about changing a world view, not persuading someone that detergent A is better than detergent B. They have a vested interest in defending their views no matter what we may think. And sometimes what we say may not become apparent until much later when they have more time to think about it.

His religion, by the way, is responsible for thousands of child rapes and molestations...

I understand the pull to point out such egregious examples of frailty yet I've discovered, as I'm sure you have too, that it simply makes them dig in their heels and defend their position even at the cost of becoming irrational and sounding like a moron.

Why doesn't the Lord put an end to this nonsense?

It's a good bet that they'll come back with the free will thing. Of course they don't realize the inherent contradictions that come to the surface with even a momentary scrutiny of the incompatibility of free will and an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god.

I guess, in the end, I don't have any answers either to counter your complaints. This religious meme has been around a long time and society has a huge investment in perpetuating it - consequences be damned. For myself, I'm realizing that a measured response allows a longer conversation which might - and I must stress might - allow a glimmer of rationality to seep through.

As Clinton said: "I feel your pain".

I see the problem as a total lack of understanding of the scripture and who God is.

Jay, I don't think you understand the point that we're making. It appears that your only interest is defending your faith. Yet your list of citations from your holy book has meaning only for you and to those who share your dogma. They are not at all convincing in an argument. You see, the argument concerns belief in God or gods. Not just your particular rendition of a deity. So quoting from your holy book is viewed by others as self serving and doesn't address the question posed.

I'm sure you've heard the fable of the Naked Emperor. Well, to many, your "reasoning" is nothing more than descri...

I see the problem as a total lack of understanding of the scripture and who God is.

Jay, I don't think you understand the point that we're making. It appears that your only interest is defending your faith. Yet your list of citations from your holy book has meaning only for you and to those who share your dogma. They are not at all convincing in an argument. You see, the argument concerns belief in God or gods. Not just your particular rendition of a deity. So quoting from your holy book is viewed by others as self serving and doesn't address the question posed.

I'm sure you've heard the fable of the Naked Emperor. Well, to many, your "reasoning" is nothing more than describing the finery the nude emperor is wearing. While you may consider yourself somewhat of an expert on god, to others they view you as merely another person trying to defend the indefensible.

@jay8h

God owes us nothing.

Jesus disagrees with you.

James 5:15-16 (in the words of Jesus)
"And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well..."

John 14:12-14 (in the words of Jesus)
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

Luke 1:37 (in the words of Jesus)
"For with God nothing will be impossible."
--

See jay8h, these people took the bible at its word, did they not?

And, they took Jesus at his word, because th...

@jay8h

God owes us nothing.

Jesus disagrees with you.

James 5:15-16 (in the words of Jesus)
"And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well..."

John 14:12-14 (in the words of Jesus)
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

Luke 1:37 (in the words of Jesus)
"For with God nothing will be impossible."
--

See jay8h, these people took the bible at its word, did they not?

And, they took Jesus at his word, because they believed those words were said by Jesus, and Jesus is God, and the bible is god's word, right?

So why is that poor girl dead?

Answer: because her parents believed it.

But maybe you can offer a better reason. Are you saying that Jesus is a liar? Why didn't he do as promised? You tell me.

@jay8h

What I am saying is that God answers prayer according to His will.

That flatly contradicts Jesus. According to Jesus' word in the bible:

James 5:15-16 (in the words of Jesus)
"And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well..."

"He chose not to heal this child and had no obligation to do so.."

That's not what Jesus says. He says in John 14:14 "if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

He flatly says "I will do it." (That doesn't agree with what you just said, does it?)

So, did he or didn't he make good on his word? (Don't ignore this question and don't try to explain. I only want you to answer if he DID what he said he would do,...

@jay8h

What I am saying is that God answers prayer according to His will.

That flatly contradicts Jesus. According to Jesus' word in the bible:

James 5:15-16 (in the words of Jesus)
"And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well..."

"He chose not to heal this child and had no obligation to do so.."

That's not what Jesus says. He says in John 14:14 "if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

He flatly says "I will do it." (That doesn't agree with what you just said, does it?)

So, did he or didn't he make good on his word? (Don't ignore this question and don't try to explain. I only want you to answer if he DID what he said he would do, or did NOT?)


By the way, I'm not saying that God failed them; their belief failed them. They took the bible at its word. Clear and simple. God had nothing to do with it, as the outcome shows.

AtlLiberal, you are right. I hold the scriptures to be the word of God.

So did those parents! And it turned out to be false. Don't you get that? In the bible, Jesus states clearly and promises, "Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it."

It doesn't say "if and when I damn well feel like it, because I owe you nothing." You're putting words into Jesus' mouth to cover for the fact that what he promised didn't hold true.

The fact that you have to do that is a clear demonstration that you know those words of Jesus aren't true. Otherwise there would be nothing to defend, because it would have worked.

It is a failed prophesy, it is a failed promise. Fact: If those words are the word of God, they should have held true. Period.

Aceslucky, I did not want to get into a Bilibical debate on this but you might want to consider the rest of the teachings on God answering prayers:

1Jn 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, He hears us.

The verse you quoted was to His disciples, not to mankind in general. You are taking this verse out of context.

As far as His sovereignty:

Psa 103:19 The LORD has established His throne in heaven, And His kingdom rules over all.
Psa 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.
Eph 1:11 ... according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Psa 135:6 Whatever the L...

Aceslucky, I did not want to get into a Bilibical debate on this but you might want to consider the rest of the teachings on God answering prayers:

1Jn 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, He hears us.

The verse you quoted was to His disciples, not to mankind in general. You are taking this verse out of context.

As far as His sovereignty:

Psa 103:19 The LORD has established His throne in heaven, And His kingdom rules over all.
Psa 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.
Eph 1:11 ... according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Psa 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places.

God never fails.

1. You cannot dictate to God your wishes and expect them to turn out the way you asked. He is not a genie in a bottle.

2. God is absolutely sovereign over all events including life and death.

For the sake of argument, let's assume God exists. If that's the case he has certain attributes associated with him such as omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and omniscience. I'll also make the assumption that you believe all morals and ethics come from God.

4. The misunderstanding of the scripture by the parents caused this child's death.

So, you defend his letting a child die because his parents didn't understand the scriptures? But God knew this, right...

1. You cannot dictate to God your wishes and expect them to turn out the way you asked. He is not a genie in a bottle.

2. God is absolutely sovereign over all events including life and death.

For the sake of argument, let's assume God exists. If that's the case he has certain attributes associated with him such as omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and omniscience. I'll also make the assumption that you believe all morals and ethics come from God.

4. The misunderstanding of the scripture by the parents caused this child's death.

So, you defend his letting a child die because his parents didn't understand the scriptures? But God knew this, right? He's all powerful and all goodness flows from him. How do you justify the sacrifice of a child? Using this logic the greater good is for God to let the child die?

And what about if their understanding is correct and yours is wrong? And please, don't reply by cutting/pasting more scripture. I want to hear the voice of Jay!

3. We are fallen creatures under judgment with no arguments against God
or protests. He does what He wills. We are His creation.

Well, that's according to one particular sect which you adhere to. But it doesn't jive with the other qualities associated with your deity. And as far as creation goes, what makes your particular creation story hold more weight than the many other creation stories believed by other religions. Why are you so certain that yours is the correct one?

BTW, thanks for offering the information. That's how true communication starts.

@jay8h

1Jn 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, He hears us.

This only strengthens what Jesus said, not contradicts it! Jesus clearly and unambiguously states exactly what his will is, several times; "if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

Did Jesus say that? If you believe he is who he says he is, you MUST accept what Jesus said as true.

Therefore you must interpret 1Jn 5:14 according to what Jesus said, not the other way around. (Neither John's nor Luke's nor Jeff's word trump the word of Jesus, do they?)

Further, how could we have "confidence" "in him" (according to that scripture) if what Jesus sa...

@jay8h

1Jn 5:14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, He hears us.

This only strengthens what Jesus said, not contradicts it! Jesus clearly and unambiguously states exactly what his will is, several times; "if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

Did Jesus say that? If you believe he is who he says he is, you MUST accept what Jesus said as true.

Therefore you must interpret 1Jn 5:14 according to what Jesus said, not the other way around. (Neither John's nor Luke's nor Jeff's word trump the word of Jesus, do they?)

Further, how could we have "confidence" "in him" (according to that scripture) if what Jesus says is only true SOMETIMES?

Clearly your interpretation once again contradicts the clear word of Jesus.

"You are taking this verse out of context."

Boy, couldn't see that one coming, could we? Pray tell; in what context is Jesus speaking if truth doesn't apply to all?

--
Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7:7-8) (In the words of Jesus)

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Matt 7:7-8 (KJV)

What is "out of context" when he clearly states, "For every one that asketh receiveth..?" This is perfectly congruent with what he's telling EVERYONE, not just his disciples.

For EVERY ONE THAT ASKETH. (So much for the context argument.)

So are you correct, or is Jesus?

Jesus said For every one that asketh receiveth..?

Yes. Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7:8) (In the words of Jesus), "For every one that asketh receiveth; "

I said earlier that it must be according to His will.

Jesus is clearly stating his will. "every one that asketh receiveth", ""if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

That's not somebody else saying "according to HIS will", that's Jesus talking saying exactly what his will is. "Ask anything in my name, and I will do it."

Scripture must support scripture otherwise you are taking it out of context.

That's not the meaning of context. Further, if some gray bloke speaking to his wife says s...

Jesus said For every one that asketh receiveth..?

Yes. Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7:8) (In the words of Jesus), "For every one that asketh receiveth; "

I said earlier that it must be according to His will.

Jesus is clearly stating his will. "every one that asketh receiveth", ""if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

That's not somebody else saying "according to HIS will", that's Jesus talking saying exactly what his will is. "Ask anything in my name, and I will do it."

Scripture must support scripture otherwise you are taking it out of context.

That's not the meaning of context. Further, if some gray bloke speaking to his wife says something that contradicts the words of Jesus, it does not mean the words of Jesus no longer hold true. One conversation has nothing to do with the other. THAT would be out of context.

You have made Jesus into a liar by doing exactly that. You've allowed someone else's word to trump the word of Jesus in order to answer why the words of Jesus didn't hold true.

If prayer only works when it's the will of god, then there's no point in praying. There's no point in "ask and it shall be given." There's no point in believing anything Jesus says. There's no point in any of it because all of it is the random caprice of a god.

Just curious: If Jesus says to you personally, "Jump off of this cliff and I give you my word, you will float slowly to the ground and you will not in any way harm yourself."

Given your "If it's the will of god" interpretation, would you trust the words of Jesus? (Why?)

And since you obviously don't think that Jesus "is" god (or this whole "if it's the will of god" thing would be moot) who is Jesus, if not the other third of God?

I mean, how could the word of Jesus be subject to god's will if Jesus is a part of god?

Can you see how your argument fails on so many levels?

Just take the word of Jesus at face value, instead of subjecting it to someone else's interpretation and you'd at lea...

Just curious: If Jesus says to you personally, "Jump off of this cliff and I give you my word, you will float slowly to the ground and you will not in any way harm yourself."

Given your "If it's the will of god" interpretation, would you trust the words of Jesus? (Why?)

And since you obviously don't think that Jesus "is" god (or this whole "if it's the will of god" thing would be moot) who is Jesus, if not the other third of God?

I mean, how could the word of Jesus be subject to god's will if Jesus is a part of god?

Can you see how your argument fails on so many levels?

Just take the word of Jesus at face value, instead of subjecting it to someone else's interpretation and you'd at least be honest.

Right now, all you're saying is Jesus' word means diddly squat if it's not the will of god -- even though Jesus "is" god.

Sorry. You're failing miserably.