seen it before. i use it now whenever the opportunity calls for it. its a good definition. What I can't understand is that many intelligent and educated people believe this nonsense! Is it any more nonsensical than believing that there is no God? The Nicene Creed United Methodist Hymnal We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and became truly human. For our sake he was crucified under ... Not only do they insist that what they believe is correct, they try to discredit science with illogical rational. The more they attempt to discredit science the more they demonstrate there total ignorance of what science is. The real problem with believing in god or not, is the desire to convert others to your point of view. First, I believe it may be morally wrong, to even try. Second, you are more likely to reinforce the other in their belief. Religion does not lend itself to debate, particularly if you have widely varying view points. Third, it is easier to believe in no god so those that do believe are at a big disadvantage when you require them to utilise logic. So have faith and fight fair. Honorable - If you kept it at just that question, "Is it any more nonsensical than believing that there is no God?", I would agree with you. I in fact do believe in a God. The difference is I know that I can not prove anything about God. This includes what he wants, thinks, commands, expects etc... No human can. Because of this, I would never attempt to tell others what God is or says. To do so would be declaring that I know the mind of God, a very arrogant thing indeed. It is this issue that I have with all religions. No human has any right to claim the authority through claiming any book is the word of God. If you can not prove it, no authority can be drawn form it. I would even... I get so tired of crap like this. God is in everything; believe it, or don't--it's your life--not mine. I see just as many atheists trying to make people believe what they do ,as I do believers, so why can't we all just get along?!?! I find it no more difficult to believe that God created us, than that we crawled out of the ooze. And though I love the Bible, I believe that most of it DID come from men--at least the slant that was given to a lot of it--& men are flawed creatures. Science & God can co-exist; YES THEY CAN! And I say God in that sentence, not religion, because MAN created religion--not GOD! And too many people have been killed for religions sake, and I will never believe ... ok, here's what i don't understand. I'm a christian. i believe in God, i have all my life and i will all my life. I have never questioned anothers beliefs. I have no problem with people who are atheist. What i do have a problem with, and what i don't understand, is i see atheists who are so caught up in "there is no God" that all they do is try to disprove God and show other people there is no God. I see atheists on the internet who are more caught up in God than most christians. If you don't believe in God, why do you care so much about him and about other peoples belief in God. It's not going to save anyone or help anyone. I don't have a problem with you if you're atheist. So don... overdriven3c8- Well let us think about this a little. If all the people who believe in God kept their beliefs just to themselves, it would not be an issue. Sadly, this is not the case. If you believe that people of religion should just be left alone because they are not hurting anyone, you need to open your eyes. The world is full of turmoil because of religion and has been so for countless years. Being that religion is based on some professed belief in God, it is most logical for those of us who are sick and tired of all the crap that religious people do in the name of God, to confront these people on their claimed source of justification for doing all their crap, God. Do I rea... Sorry, I posted to quick.. Here are just a few examples...: - The Right Wing Christian Coalition Republicans - - 9/11 - Religious Terrorist - IRA - The whole middle east problem - KKK - Religious Repression On People (especially women) - The Creation of Israel Just to name a few present day examples... history is stocked full of examples of immoral things all done in the name of some professed belief in God. I personally would like to get people who are a little too confident in their justification of their beliefs in their religion to be shaken awake to the fact that what they believe to be absolute truths are in reality just their beliefs. Believing something to be "truth" does not ... I do believe there is an absolute truth. I also know that my belief is not justification to do anything to another human or force another human to do anything. Because I can never claim to know what God says or wants, others will always be justified to challenge me on any power I might try to impose on another. The moment I claim "justification" by claiming "God tells me...", I am attempting to claim to know the absolute truth. This amounts to saying that I am on the same level as God. Some say that God has shown them the absolute truth. Unless they can prove this to be true, they will never be justified to use this claim to hold power over other humans. Religion is used to control people. ... The dangers of religion is too great! It must be confronted each time it oversteps it's authority. If anything, those of us who see what religion and the belief in God really is, fail bitterly to stand up and say, "ENOUGH! of this INSANITY!" The scope of any athority that a persons belief in God bestows is limited to that person and that person alone and then only if that person so chooses to let it have authority over him. No person can draw authority based on their belief in God beyond themselves. No person can justifiably claim authority beyond themselves based on their belief in God. This is why all people of religion have no right or justification to try and control any aspect of government or public behavior. Religious groups are not justified to try and control anything concerning the public based on their belief in God. ok, sparky, ive read what you have to say and you bring up some interesting points. the first thing i would like to point out in your argument is that most if not all of your examples of modern day dangers created by religion are due to politics and not religion. the establishment of israel was a stupid thing to do politically, but we did it anyway. the problems in the middle east and 9/11, religious terrorists, these all stem from a bad political decision. it was because we gave the jews a country that we are considered infidels, thats why they want to kill us, not because we're christian, that's just how the muslims justify it. The KKK was founded because of racism, a quality that C... and dont disregard some advantages of organized religion. to name a few: -almost all classical music was written for church music -art was greatly influenced by christianity -greek drama was made to worship the god dionysis(i think i spelled that wrong) and the beginnings of english drama were morality plays and religious plays created by church groups. -Poland was freed from the Soviet Union without a shot being fired. -Massachusttes Bay and Maryland colonies were founded on Puritanism and Catholicism respectively -the Byzantine emipire was founded on Christianity -Notre Dame University was founded on Christianity -Millions of people have been brought closer to God t... Religion is a man mad thing - a thing that you nor any human can prove to be from God. Your point in that it is men that do all this things bad thins is the very point I been stressing. As far as the good things that you claim have come from religion - is not justification for anything. It also does not follow that these things for which you say have come into being because of religion, would not have come into being a were if not for religion. These things not only could have come into existence apart form religion, they most likely would have far exceeded the level of accomplishments they ever did under the repression of religion. I religion has held man's growth back significantl... Sorry, I think I just used a double negative.. I think you can still make out what I was trying to say.. overdriven3c8 - You originally asked: "Why don't we just leave Christians alone? I think I gave more then enough reason for not leaving Christians alone. I will state it again, because they continue to try and impose their belief systems onto the rest of the world. Go back and read what I said and you will have your answer to why we will not leave Christians Alone. Do not even think about trying to say that Christians are leaving everyone alone, they are not! There are more then enough reasons to actively stand up at every opportunity and tell the religions of this world, ENOUGH is ENOUGH! sparky, first off, i never said that christians didnt impose belief on people. i also never said they did. in todays christianity, you have options. if you want to believe or not, what you want to believe, and some say believe this or go to hell, personally, i do not believe that. "as it is on earth so it shall be in heaven." if ou believe what you are doing is right, youve earned a place with God. No ones forcing you to believe anything, and you can't convince me that beliefs are forced as opposed to beliefs being presented. you said you believe in absolute truth and your belief is no justification. i said the same thing. part of it may have been cut off. i said people try to j... now as far as science goes, like you said, the christians destroyed the library of alexandria. they condemned galileo and newton for theyre therories of science, but these are ancient schools of thought. This type of thought was long before people began thinking for themselves. Everything was either right or blasphemy, people had not yet opened up their minds, but we're beyond that. you're condemning religion for its history of bad things, but i'm not talking about history, i'm talking about today. i'm saying i have the choice to believe what i want to believe, so do you, so does everyone, and if you really do believe and have faith, then when other groups propose something, that should... Good Lord ezsparky, do you need a pulpit, or what?!?! You know, there are PLENTY of people who do bad things on Earth. Plenty of people who do bad things, that do not believe in God--or organized religion. Do you not have any inspiring words for those people? Everybody knows that a A LOT of people have done evil in God's name;, that they continue to do evil in His name! But, there are just people doing bad things, all of the time, in no one's name! You don't want people stuffing God down your throat; I get that. No one should be MADE to believe something that they do not want. But you need to get off our asses for a minute and look at things logically! MEN (and women) do evil becau... Yes, religion does attract more attention, but that does not mean that the mass majority of evil committed in the world is caused by people who believe in God! There are BILLIONS of people in the world who don't even believe in God, or they believe in another God. Jews, Christians, & Muslims just catch the most flack, because we believe in the same God, even though much of our religious dogma is different. There are millions of people in the world who commit horrible atrocities against each other, who need no other reason to hurt someone else than that the other person looked at them wrong! I don't need your beliefs stuffed down my throat, any more than you need mine! So get over yourse... dma69 & overdriven - Nothing that either one of you have said discredits the logic which I use to justify my work to put religion back into its place. It is as simple as that. People have always and will always us religion as a otool to control and oppress. We don't need Religion. Your arguments to the contrary don't hold up. As long as people insist on keeping religion aground and use it to draw authority from, I will be justified to stand up and call you on that authority. If you personally are able to keep your religion contained to yourself, I will not have a problem with you or your religion. I could care less what you believe but the moment that your religious beliefs manife... So What? It seems I've hit a nerve with this clip. I'm glad to see the discussion bubbling along without boiling over. While I agree with the sentiments expressed in the clip, my position is closer to the one expressed in the more recent clip 'Atheists' Challenge'. "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right: a single experiment can prove me wrong." Familiarity with the tautology "one can not prove a negative" restrains the forcefulness with which one can proclaim that there is no god. Yet this is my "belief". One I never evangelize, but always "witness" to those attempting to "save" me. As far as religion "causing" evil, of course this cannot be proven. But the facts remain, religious peop... Guys, are you dense?!?! Just curious. Have you not figured out yet that ATHEISM IS your religion?! And you are trying to use it in the same way you are accusing other religions of doing! And as far as the millions of Native Americans (whom I have the utmost respect for), you can blame that just as much, and more so, on the WHITE MAN--not just the church or religion. We, as whites have ALWAYS moved in and conquered & destroyed anyone who got in our way, no matter who they were; if you don't fit in with us then you get dead pretty fast! Can we end this discussion for awhile; we're ALL starting to sound llike bickering children?! dma69, thank you for reaffirming a point i made a long time ago, its not religion thats evil, its the people who are members of that religionand try to justify what they do with religion, but they dont do these things for religion. People didn't kill native Americans because of God, people killed native Americans because they believed the land was theirs, or because the native americans attacked them first. killing native americans had nothing to do with religion. the religious groups were peacful at first with the native americans. remember too that the opression of native americans lasted for a long time, and before the 'second great awakening' only about 15% of Americans actually belie... Trying to stop people from pushing a belief system onto others by pointing out that belief system does not provide justifiable authority to do so is not a religion. To try and equate that to a religion is simply idiotic. Not only that, I already told you that I believe in a God. If you are going to start to go off the deep end by making pointless points, then the is no point in trying to deal with people like you. If you wish to continue to us logic to discuss this issue I then will be glad to continue. Your attempt of trying to separate religion from the religious people's acts does not hold water. When man made the religion in the first place and then uses his religion to justify his actions to do things. I'm am not just talking about things like murder and such. I'm talking about anything and everything that religious people try to impose onto the rest of the world, not just those doing blatantly evil acts. Dude, I am sooooooooo, tired of this argument; aren't you? And as for pointless points--you had to know, that when YOU brought up the Native American, someone would say something in response! Correct??? And I don't think that anything about it is pointless; some people did horrible things to them & yes many other peoples in the name of God, but A WHOLE LOT more did it for GREED! You know greed, that oh so famous reason we have for most of the stupid sh** we do, but don't want to admit that it is what is really driving us! But back to God & gods. People have always abused power & SAID that is was in the name of God, or some other god. It's ALWAYS gonna be that way! Scientists make thi... dma69 - I agree I'm tired of myself - Were you directing your comment to me? I never made any comments about the Native Americans so I'm a little confuse by this. Anyway, thanks for all your input. Ok, I'll clarify before signing off. I apologize to ezsparky for not making clear about the Native American comment. That was faberglas who brought that up. Didn't mean to confuse the topic, my fault, everything was really starting to run together, by that time. No offense meant to anyone. Everybody TRY to get along; Ok?!?! dma692 Guys, are you dense?!?! Just curious. Have you not figured out yet that ATHEISM IS your religion?!here in lies the problem with 'dawkinsism' richard dawkins is a smart man, renowned athiest and author- and he is very Very in-your-face about disproving theism, and i personally think makes good points but attacking religion the way he does is not commendable its reprehensible and most atheists that are in your face follow in his particular lead. the problem is, that is not atheism - it ANTItheism. the A alone should tell you (literally) that your not against anything, it should mean more of an agnostic pov. but ANTI is what those richard.dawkin bran... |
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