Kids today are getting well indoctrinated by our liberal schools. Soon they will have little or no morals. Why does this guy think he is right and the Christians are all wrong? Where is his proof or is it just another vile opinion? If by "this guy" you mean me, I don't say that "Christians are wrong" -- except in specific instances: like this one. The law and gov should be blind to consenting adults choice of mate (including that mates sex - just as they are blind to a mate's race, religion, etc). I do fault "religion" in general for fostering the acceptability of "faith". Particularly in the notion that believing something to be true with little or NO (as is the case for most religious belief) evidence. We should teach our children to be skeptical... to ask why... and to ask for proof. Religion is the opposite of that: it teaches children to accept non-sense at an early age. Once anyone accepts dogma on its own ter... And morals most certainly do NOT come from religion... a cursory look at history and the major religions "holy books" will attest to that. WE decide what is moral despite such books: for instance, we look at passages that command adulterers or disobedient children be stoned to death and cringe... We innately know such rubbish is immoral. However, it takes religious 'faith' to believe such acts are justified. Kids today are getting well indoctrinated by our liberal schools. Soon they will have little or no morals.And this would be apposed to like Catholic schools and the pedophile teachers. Or Mormon schools and their polygamy belief system. And the many other religious schools that teach some form of inhumanity to man. I hear you... I guess I don't know what "liberal indoctrination" is. If it's the urge to question authority ... conserve resources ... and respect the rights of our fellow human beings, well - I think everyone should be happy with schools instilling those values. Some comment are so good they deserve their own clip cptenaud! Religious morality? Oxymoron So where do you get your moral code and guidance? Hitler thought his was morally correct. Stalin thought he was morally correct. Should I name more? Yet, you hate the one place people have looked for moral guidance and claim it has no none. Maybe your are afraid to look? My morals come from my upbringing AND a very simple rational realization: I live in a society -- among other humans. Since I don't like to be mistreated, discriminated against, denied my right to choose my manner of living, etc. I can rationally assume others don't want to be mistreated either. I realize I depend on the web of society for my very livelihood ... and so do most others. With such a rational outlook it becomes impossible to justify the atrocities committed by the likes of Hitler, Pot, Stalin et al. In fact, the "belief" systems these people started had much more in common with religion (an irrational belief in un-supported claims) than with reason. Take Hitler's "master race" p... On the other hand look to the bible (which I doubt you've read in its entirety -- I have). The vast vast majority of it is committed to iron-age barbarism: DETAILED instructions on how to kill, maim and otherwise destroy people and entire societies for irrational "infractions". E.g. - stoning children & women... Burning towns and villages... salting the earth. Sacrificing animals... Even killing every last living thing - including trees. Complete silliness (if it wasn't so abjectly cruel and unjust). You certainly don't use religion to come to the conclusion that such behavior is immoral... that realization comes from within you -- your sense of society and commonality with mankind. You re... You need to read the Bible again. You missed the whole point and it's teachings. And, I am glad you admit that you base your morality on whatever you think is right. If it feels good-do it. What? Who said "if it feels good do it?" ... Did you read what I wrote? I make no such claim. Have YOU read the bible? The whole thing? Look - if you want to say your morals are based on the bible fine. I'm sure you have reasons why some of "god's" laws and actions are now passe ... but you have to go thru some mind-boggling mental gymastics to explain why wearing cloths made of multiple cloths is now ok, while homosexuality is not. It makes no sense in the first place and to hold on to such silly convictions and label them "morals" is nonsense. In fact, I can say definitively from you "it's teachings" comment that you HAVE NOT read the whole thing ... you are one of those who reads a passage in the New Test and finds a few other passages here-and-there to justify your "belief" in its teaching. Well, fine -- but realize people can AND DO use the bible in exactly the same way to justify barbarism -- even today. Earnic, why do you make me boast? I have read the Bible through many times and it is my instruction book on life. You confuse the Old Testament with our moral code today which it was not meant to be. The Old Testament is about God's dealings with the Israelites but we live under the New Testament. I suggest you start reading there. When I first got my computer, I had to read the instruction manual to learn to operate it. It is strange that people ignore the instruction manual about how to operate in life. WE decide what is moral despite such books: for instance, we look atThese were commands for the Jews, not for Christians. Jews had a multitude of laws that were for them. Christians have another set which does not include stoning as punishment. I look at marriage like this. Any two people no matter what their sex can live together and with some paper work entitle each other to their pensions and property on the death of either one. The marriage vow and the actual act of getting married is a show of love, devotion and trust between two people. Why should two people be denied this gesture of love just because they are the same sex? Because marriage is between a man and a woman. If you want equal rights that come with marriage, go for a civil union. You will get your rights and leave marriage alone.....unless you are just striving for public acceptance for your lifestyle? "The Old Testament is about God's dealings with the Israelites but we live under the New Testament" Really? What was it then that Jesus said about the law (the old test) ... "Not one jot or tiddle of the law shall pass" ... What about all his sermons about the law -- and how it was to be obeyed... How Jesus fulfilled the "law"... In other words, you god's vision of justice was DEPICTED by the immoral laws. You can certainly take the new testament as your guide, ignorning the old via reasoning counter to jesus' own words, but as a moral code it is still weak... For instance, please tell me where in the new test it forbids something as morally reprehensible as slavery? I can provide you with... "These were commands for the Jews, not for Christians." Really? Again, have you read your bible or are you just selectively forgetting parts of the new test? Even if that were true, why would a god have such HEINOUS laws and rules for one group of people that we all recognize as completely immoral? Just to "set them apart? Right... Doesn't that make got a racist? So god's version of morality is one thing for the Jew's back 3000 years ago, but has changed since... Talk about moral relativism... An omniscient/omnipotent god found it necessary to instruct his followers to stone children ... (or a personal favorite, have bears mall some kids that teased a prophet about his bald head!!) to "s... You are completely correct tanyamm.. in a free society and two consenting adults of sound mind should be able to enter into the marriage contact. Marriage should not even be part of the law: everyone should have "civil unions" in the eyes of the state. If you want a church "marriage" that's fine. Sorry Jay -- gays can - today - get MARRIED in a church. Who can marry in a church is completely up to the churches leadership. The definition of marriage is already "lost" as far as you are concerned. What gay people are asking is that the STATE recognize those marriages just as it does hetero marriages. And there is no legal reason why it shouldn't... all reasons point to religion, and even tho... And while I'm on the subject of the bible... There is NO evidence that Jews were slaves in Egypt... no evidence that they wandered the desert with Moses for 40 years... as there is NO evidence for many other OT stories. And the Jews have been trying for decades to discover evidence of the wandering ... it's not that big a place. If it happened, they would have found something by now. Joshua - one of my favoriate bible stories... How to commit atrocities, god-style. "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." Earnric Does it really matter what God makes up for laws? He can do whatever he wants, he is God. "Immorality" is relative. Everyone has an opinion about what is and isn't moral. All men must die because of the choices of Adam and Eve. This is not a final judgment by any means. That comes later and it will be perfectly just and impartial. Death was the choice of man, not God. I love it -- and agree: When you buy into "god can do whatever he wants" you end up up with the ultimate in moral relativism. It's the only way you can argue ordering the Israelites to slay every man, woman, child beast and tree in a city is "moral" ... especially when the people who were in those cities were doing nothing more than living someplace god wanted the Israelite to occupy. So what makes more sense: god sanctions horrific violence to accomplish his ends (because apparently this omnipotent diety can't do it another way) OR that a barbaric tribe in the middle east used violence 3000 years ago to conquer and acquire lands... ?? What is the problem with "God can do what he wants?" It makes perfect sense. You want to argue with God because you think he is immoral? All I have to say is, good luck and I hope you win the argument. But when all is said and done, a creator will do as he wishes with his creation, period. Now, if you study the New Testament, you will see what kind of son he produced. And I hope you can agree with Him a little more. In fact, I challenge you to find a good argument against Him. Buzzz.....?!? There's a HUGE problem with "god can do what he wants" ... because there is NO GOD! So you are listening to the inane ramblings of iron-age barbarians and taking your moral cues from them. There is not one shred of evidence for ANY of the gods people worship. It is all equally silly: Allah, Jesus, Zeus, Jupiter, Thor ... they all live on the same dung-heap of mythology. If you want to talk moral relativism, then talk about your view of god and morality: you've just told me that if you are convinced god says its ok, or the right thing to do, then it is.... That is the prescription for tyranny. I'll stick with reason... thanks We are no better than any god we could create. Count up the number killed by God verses the number killed by man for other than religious reasons and we will see who would be the greater tyrant. 2 million Iraqis in the last 2 decades comes to mind for starters. World War 2 estimates run anywhere from 50 to 70 million. 2.5 million as a result of Vietnam. The list goes on and on....... It's not a contest... humanity is capable of great cruelty -- hence the god he created is capable of it. Again, I can pick and choose nuggests of wisdom and kindness from ANY of the ancient texts. From Homer's Illiad to the Bible to the Koran... But all of them are also filled with atrocities -- the only problem is that some people believe that SOME of these books are inspired by a creator who will cast you into everlasting torment if you don't believe the right things. THAT is the foundation of tyranny. You make alot of sense here, but the nugget that runs through the new testament is that man cannot save his own ass. And from what I have seen so far, this is all too clear. Maybe one day man will believe he has turned this ship around and have patched up the gaping holes. But he lies to himself so often,will he find any truth? Just check out the Pope with his recent claim that genetically modified foods are good for you. This lie will be believed by millions just because of whose mouth it came out of. So the new test got a few things right ... So did many of the ancients (Plato, Homer, hell, even Marx got a few things right... ). The problem is, they got MANY MANY things wrong... (slavery for one) -- so again, its great that you find some good instruction in the new test: I don't argue with that. What I say is that, demonstratively, both the new and old test. are full of morally abhorrent stuff... stuff that both you and I KNOW is wrong ... down in our gut. Evolution has made us social animals and we know that killing our neighbors doesn't make for good 'society' -- we sure don't need iron-age barbarians from the middle east to tell us that (esp when they treated women as property, own... Okay. I hear what your saying. But if mankind takes a turn for the worst because of the ways we are screwing ourselves, our planet, and our neighbors, alot more people are going to start looking "up" for answers. And the new testament (which I disagree as being morally abhorrent save maybe the book of Revelations from certain angles) provides an amazing alternative to relying on ones own abilities. As the world is now, the value of a human life is is in direct correlation to the proximity and agreeability to the one placing the value. I like to think that we have much more value than this because if I am only worth the former, then there really isn't much point in living except to provide ... |
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