I am surprised you kind of agree because it is a pretty radical idea that can easily be interpreted as cowardly and unpatriotic .
We are not trying to come to some sort of civilized state of being, at least not one that nourishes the bodies and minds of the masses. It is a charade. Most people want stability, yes. But those who have hold of the reigns of change are not working for the average citizen, but for those who control the wealth and capital accumulation. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer.

If the dog is not thrown a bone once in a while, he may turn and bite you. Power and wealth are being concentrated among a few. Who do the police protect during a strike? T...

I am surprised you kind of agree because it is a pretty radical idea that can easily be interpreted as cowardly and unpatriotic .
We are not trying to come to some sort of civilized state of being, at least not one that nourishes the bodies and minds of the masses. It is a charade. Most people want stability, yes. But those who have hold of the reigns of change are not working for the average citizen, but for those who control the wealth and capital accumulation. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer.

If the dog is not thrown a bone once in a while, he may turn and bite you. Power and wealth are being concentrated among a few. Who do the police protect during a strike? The rights of the business owner above the rights of the worker. Capitalism puts on the cloak of democracy to appease the people. They can conquer the world without firing a shot. Creeping Fascism.

I am surprised you kind of agree because it is a pretty radical idea
that can easily be interpreted as cowardly and unpatriotic .

I do not believe it is unpatriotic at all. It is a bit anarchist. Our founders were as close to anarchy as you could get. I guess they knew we would eventually move across the spectrum to fascism, so they placed as far away as they could and still have the concept of government for the purpose of self-government.

Most people want stability, yes. But those who have hold of the reigns
of change are not working for the average citizen, but for those who
control the wealth and capital accumulation. The rich are getting
richer, the poor are ge...

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I am surprised you kind of agree because it is a pretty radical idea
that can easily be interpreted as cowardly and unpatriotic .

I do not believe it is unpatriotic at all. It is a bit anarchist. Our founders were as close to anarchy as you could get. I guess they knew we would eventually move across the spectrum to fascism, so they placed as far away as they could and still have the concept of government for the purpose of self-government.

Most people want stability, yes. But those who have hold of the reigns
of change are not working for the average citizen, but for those who
control the wealth and capital accumulation. The rich are getting
richer, the poor are getting poorer.

Yes, true, but don't you see that is because we , the voters, let them. We have the power. We have just let them numb us to death. It is a charade in the fact that we are being played by the powerful and useful idiots on both sides of political spectrum who only have one agenda, and that is to keep us divided. Both sides are a scam. If anyone advocates for a party, then they are part of the problem. That does not mean one cannot advocate for individuals ideologically. Libertarianism is the ULTIMATE concept of what you say is "denying himself and his own agenda" because THAT is what liberty means. The opposite is contrived unity and mobilizing society as a functioning ant colony, with citizens robbed of liberty. THAT is fascism. I love those who think in anarchist terms, like you and bartendingbear, but when you advocate for the status quo march to fascism, then you are not denying your own agenda. You are allowing persistent human evil to control people. How is that Christian?

but don't you see that is because we , the voters, let them.

I guess this is part of the human condition. Far too few people are able to make the jump from a chaotic planet to a peaceful one. The bible says there will be a man who will unite the world and bring peace. But that it will be a false peace that will last only a few months or so.

What I meant by "denying oneself" is that God needs a person to be a "pure vessel" in which he can have his will carried out, a people who are not tainted by the "things of the world" and are on a path that rids them of Adam's sin which is done with the help of the Holy Spirit who resides in those who have accepted Christ as their savio...

but don't you see that is because we , the voters, let them.

I guess this is part of the human condition. Far too few people are able to make the jump from a chaotic planet to a peaceful one. The bible says there will be a man who will unite the world and bring peace. But that it will be a false peace that will last only a few months or so.

What I meant by "denying oneself" is that God needs a person to be a "pure vessel" in which he can have his will carried out, a people who are not tainted by the "things of the world" and are on a path that rids them of Adam's sin which is done with the help of the Holy Spirit who resides in those who have accepted Christ as their savior.

I am not sure what you mean in the last part. Fascism and status quo in the same sentence???Fascism would be the death of us all and probably will be. How am I advocating Fascism?

Libertarianism is nice and would be a decent thing for a Christian to favor, but he must know that it could never come about in this age because it would be an example of man "making it on his own" outside of what the will of God is for the near future(this age). A Christian needs to desire and pray for only one thing at this point in history, and that is that the will of God be done. Then, and only then, after God's son comes down and sits on the thrown as the king of the world, can man have any input into how large groups of people or a society might be managed. The idea is to submit to his will first, then you will get the freedom and liberty you desire within the specified parameters. I...

Libertarianism is nice and would be a decent thing for a Christian to favor, but he must know that it could never come about in this age because it would be an example of man "making it on his own" outside of what the will of God is for the near future(this age). A Christian needs to desire and pray for only one thing at this point in history, and that is that the will of God be done. Then, and only then, after God's son comes down and sits on the thrown as the king of the world, can man have any input into how large groups of people or a society might be managed. The idea is to submit to his will first, then you will get the freedom and liberty you desire within the specified parameters. If you create something, you do it so it will perform a function or represent something you desire. If you paint a picture that portrays the opposite of your intent, you discard it and make new. If you have a child who will not turn away from destructive habits, they will consume him/her. And if your dog fails after sufficient instruction to stop biting you, you will surely get rid of it.

If I can intrude, (very good discussion, thoughtful) can I ask you, katsteevns, does this mean that basically the "prophecies", or the word, must be allowed to be played out as it is written? And we really have no role in it? Or we would be altering the prophesy if we act to create our own future? Sorry if I misread.
Man, contrary to what I thought, I have similarities to your take on what is happening. But I think the principles of our founders could be within reach, again. (Actually, I have wavered between that and the "hopelessness" you describe.) The main blind spot in my understanding is: - could the U.S. interact effectively on the current global stage economically?
Can U.S.A. resolve...

If I can intrude, (very good discussion, thoughtful) can I ask you, katsteevns, does this mean that basically the "prophecies", or the word, must be allowed to be played out as it is written? And we really have no role in it? Or we would be altering the prophesy if we act to create our own future? Sorry if I misread.
Man, contrary to what I thought, I have similarities to your take on what is happening. But I think the principles of our founders could be within reach, again. (Actually, I have wavered between that and the "hopelessness" you describe.) The main blind spot in my understanding is: - could the U.S. interact effectively on the current global stage economically?
Can U.S.A. resolve functioning within the system of global trade and the monetary system as it is without abandoning the principles? Would we be strong? What would the founders think of derivatives. Or 80:1 leverage? CDO's?

You're getting to be a bore, katsteevns. I'm used to the ignorance and profound bone-headedness of Leftists, but it just gets to a point where I don't even believe that you believe the garbage and hatefulness that you spew.

Did you miss this clip? If every nation where capitalist we would be even more prosperous than we are now. Money is not zero sum. Money is exchanged in free markets and the more turnover a dollar has, the more prosperous everyone else is.

The system will not devour itself. It cannot simply because it is not zero-sum. It is an impossibility for it to self-devour. The only way it can falter is when the free marke...

You're getting to be a bore, katsteevns. I'm used to the ignorance and profound bone-headedness of Leftists, but it just gets to a point where I don't even believe that you believe the garbage and hatefulness that you spew.

Did you miss this clip? If every nation where capitalist we would be even more prosperous than we are now. Money is not zero sum. Money is exchanged in free markets and the more turnover a dollar has, the more prosperous everyone else is.

The system will not devour itself. It cannot simply because it is not zero-sum. It is an impossibility for it to self-devour. The only way it can falter is when the free market is manipulated and rules are fixed, biased, and politicized. Our market is an organism of fractal-esque beauty. There is not one single reason that anyone in America cannot carve out a comfortable and prosperous existence. NOT ONE DAMN REASON! On the other hand, fascistic, socialist , and communist models only further equality in the sense of equal misery.

If every nation where capitalist we would be even more prosperous than we are now

"We" being the operative word here.

Money is exchanged in free markets and the more turnover a dollar has, the more prosperous everyone else is.

"Everyone"? ....hmmm. Dream on.

There is not one single reason that anyone in America cannot carve out a comfortable and prosperous existence.

Again, "in America" being the operative words here. You are not seeing the big picture. Remember those 25,000 Indian farmers who committed suicide because the big(capitalist) seed companies sold them shit product?
(No, it wasn't in the US news, was it?. Gee, I wonder why?)
Did ...

If every nation where capitalist we would be even more prosperous than we are now

"We" being the operative word here.

Money is exchanged in free markets and the more turnover a dollar has, the more prosperous everyone else is.

"Everyone"? ....hmmm. Dream on.

There is not one single reason that anyone in America cannot carve out a comfortable and prosperous existence.

Again, "in America" being the operative words here. You are not seeing the big picture. Remember those 25,000 Indian farmers who committed suicide because the big(capitalist) seed companies sold them shit product?
(No, it wasn't in the US news, was it?. Gee, I wonder why?)
Did we repay them ANY of their loses? No.

We have 5% of the world population and consume 75% of the natural resources. You must be kidding.

On the other hand, fascistic, socialist , and communist models only further equality in the sense of equal misery.

Tell it to Sweden, Denmark, Norway, France among others with socialist programs. 75% of the people of the former Soviet Union wish things were back the way they were before capitalism took over.

You and others feel it's okay to sacrifice the lives of people from other nations just to establish your "democratic" agendas within their borders. Your motto is "the ends justify the means". You can take your NAFTA ,GATT, WTO and the almighty IMF and put them where the sun don't shine! We are not doing anyone any favors with these exploitive agreements and groups. But go ahead and fool yourself into thinking some good will come from it. The cocktail you are sipping is way too strong.