On the contrary, I am Christian. My knowledge of philosophy (however limited), logic, apologetics, and the details of my faith in Christ are entirely logical. In fact, that's what faith is. To understand faith correctly, you need to understand faith is comprised of 3 components: 1. noticia - knowledge, 2. sensa - ascent, and 3. fuducia - trust.

Faith is not just believing. It is much deeper, involves much more thought, accepts doubts, encourages growth, requires a trust that is revealed by one's actions and life.

The reason I am a Christian is precisely because of 3 things: 1. my knowledge obtained intellectually, logically, personally, philosophically, and theologically, [...

On the contrary, I am Christian. My knowledge of philosophy (however limited), logic, apologetics, and the details of my faith in Christ are entirely logical. In fact, that's what faith is. To understand faith correctly, you need to understand faith is comprised of 3 components: 1. noticia - knowledge, 2. sensa - ascent, and 3. fuducia - trust.

Faith is not just believing. It is much deeper, involves much more thought, accepts doubts, encourages growth, requires a trust that is revealed by one's actions and life.

The reason I am a Christian is precisely because of 3 things: 1. my knowledge obtained intellectually, logically, personally, philosophically, and theologically, 2. The changes that have come to pass in my life, which are quite dramatic, and 3. the developement of my trust in Jesus Christ which can only be explained in the sense of how I am tested and how I am able to continue on my current path given my past and current struggles.

What do you find illogical?

Willie!! What an excellent and well written explanation!! Thank you!

Faith is not just believing. It is much deeper, involves much more
thought, accepts doubts, encourages growth, requires a trust that is
revealed by one's actions and life.

I understand and agree with this completely in reference to my own faith, which is not christian.

What do you find illogical?

I don't find your explanation of your faith "illogical", per se, rather I believe that "personal knowledge" does not fall under the definition of "logical". I apply this to my own spiritual experience, as well. I believe there comes a point at which faith defies logic.


I think that your addend...

Willie!! What an excellent and well written explanation!! Thank you!

Faith is not just believing. It is much deeper, involves much more
thought, accepts doubts, encourages growth, requires a trust that is
revealed by one's actions and life.

I understand and agree with this completely in reference to my own faith, which is not christian.

What do you find illogical?

I don't find your explanation of your faith "illogical", per se, rather I believe that "personal knowledge" does not fall under the definition of "logical". I apply this to my own spiritual experience, as well. I believe there comes a point at which faith defies logic.


I think that your addendum:

That is not to dismiss that there ARE some things we ascent to by faith aquired through knowledge.

speaks to my interpretation re: "personal knowledge" above.

Which, in the case of Atheism, is based only on faith in nothing.

I don't understand athiesm this way. I don't claim to fully understand all of the various types and reasoning of athiesm It appears to be nearly as varied as religion and spirituality, and like any philosophy, is further defined by its practitioners. I seems however for many, to include the personal knowledge and logical applications that you express above.

continued in next comment...

In closing, to clarify my comment:

your interpretation of "truth" using "logic", as I don't find most faith based arguments "logical".

I
find that many (let me generalize, rather than point this at "you")
arguments based on the doctrine or dogma of any religion are flawed.
They are filtered through our perception, our "personal knowledge", and
as such cannot be considered "logical" by definition.

I thought to paste a definition, as a basis for further discussion on
our respective interpretations of "logic", but I'm trying to avoid
actions which might be misinterpreted, and I've noticed that many folks
seem to take that as an implication of ignorance, which is not...

In closing, to clarify my comment:

your interpretation of "truth" using "logic", as I don't find most faith based arguments "logical".

I
find that many (let me generalize, rather than point this at "you")
arguments based on the doctrine or dogma of any religion are flawed.
They are filtered through our perception, our "personal knowledge", and
as such cannot be considered "logical" by definition.

I thought to paste a definition, as a basis for further discussion on
our respective interpretations of "logic", but I'm trying to avoid
actions which might be misinterpreted, and I've noticed that many folks
seem to take that as an implication of ignorance, which is not my intent.

I welcome continued dialogue in an effort to better understand the context from which our comments arise..

A very interesting (as always) analysis of the interplay between faith and logic.

It got me thinking...

Perhaps, when we translate our personal knowledge into a "proposal of knowledge" in order to share it with others, perhaps there is always some sort of corruption that takes place, because we can never express the full breadth of our experiences that have influenced that decision.

Thus, although some statements may seem illogical when we hear them, that is not because they are not based on logic, but instead because they are based on a logic that is not readily articulated.

In a further note, I would be interested in a more at length discussion of logic. Willhelm, Thorne, do you think ...

A very interesting (as always) analysis of the interplay between faith and logic.

It got me thinking...

Perhaps, when we translate our personal knowledge into a "proposal of knowledge" in order to share it with others, perhaps there is always some sort of corruption that takes place, because we can never express the full breadth of our experiences that have influenced that decision.

Thus, although some statements may seem illogical when we hear them, that is not because they are not based on logic, but instead because they are based on a logic that is not readily articulated.

In a further note, I would be interested in a more at length discussion of logic. Willhelm, Thorne, do you think you guys could both clip definitions of logic you like? (I will begin looking for one myself.)