I agree djkraz. I am not one either, but I also do not attach myself to anyone religous following - thus I suppose I am out of the norm.
Also I think the reason people might be uncomfortable or distrust atheist is that all the recent publicity some atheists have had with trying to remove the pledge, prayer, and "in God we Trust" from money, etc.
Also how do you swear in someone's court tesimony - since they cannot put their hand on a Bible and swear to God to tell the truth, etc. Right?

Well - I would argue that I would trust some folks that I know who are atheist about telling the truth without swearing in, as to some claiming to be Christians or other religon and are sworn in. Simply put...

I agree djkraz. I am not one either, but I also do not attach myself to anyone religous following - thus I suppose I am out of the norm.
Also I think the reason people might be uncomfortable or distrust atheist is that all the recent publicity some atheists have had with trying to remove the pledge, prayer, and "in God we Trust" from money, etc.
Also how do you swear in someone's court tesimony - since they cannot put their hand on a Bible and swear to God to tell the truth, etc. Right?

Well - I would argue that I would trust some folks that I know who are atheist about telling the truth without swearing in, as to some claiming to be Christians or other religon and are sworn in. Simply put "it is the person" not the/a religon or non religon that creates trust.

But you are correct I think - anything people cannot comprehend or is outside the norm of society they consider wrong.

Religion is what YOU make of it. I'm Christian based. I was brought up to believe in God and the Son-Christ. It's not a political ploy, not a popularity quest and not a personal outcry. It's just the method my morals were built upon.

I don't like Church. I think that Sunday morning Christians are Liars and pompus and deviant. I go to church everyday in my mind. I praise God for the things I am allowed to witness. I don't agree with all the Bible writes about but I do give credit to God for letting me Appreciate the Beauty of Life. I don't care if you do or not!
God 'Made' everything I know in the sense that I appreciate it. I Know the Earth is 4.7 Billion years old. I know there are Atoms, ...

Religion is what YOU make of it. I'm Christian based. I was brought up to believe in God and the Son-Christ. It's not a political ploy, not a popularity quest and not a personal outcry. It's just the method my morals were built upon.

I don't like Church. I think that Sunday morning Christians are Liars and pompus and deviant. I go to church everyday in my mind. I praise God for the things I am allowed to witness. I don't agree with all the Bible writes about but I do give credit to God for letting me Appreciate the Beauty of Life. I don't care if you do or not!
God 'Made' everything I know in the sense that I appreciate it. I Know the Earth is 4.7 Billion years old. I know there are Atoms, Natural Laws, Physical and MetaPhysical realities. I understand why God is the Alpha AND the Omega. My morals are as corrupt as anyones but My path thru life is one that CHOOSES the Moral base of Christianity. It's a society belief system that forms out Nation. When an Athiest proclaims their faith it is usually in such a way that attacks peoples Established Moral Belief system.
I distrust everyone who is not ....ME.
I guess I could say everyone that is not of the religion of Skwirldom is wrong. BUT I wouldn't. If an atheist is distrustful all religions are. Yes, Atheism is a religion!

Skwirly said:

I think you're all full of SHIT!

Sure. It's because we eat. We are all made of shit (or, less vulgarly said, organic parts)

Religion is what YOU make of it. I'm Christian based. I was brought up to believe in God and the Son-Christ. It's not a political ploy, not a popularity quest and not a personal outcry. It's just the method my morals were built upon.

Sure. But it's also something else. Whether you want it or not, it's a philosophical question: should we accept things and elieve in them without proof. Some people do, some people don't. To me, that's a huge difference.

I'm not talking about about the moral here, some non-believers have what you ma...

Skwirly said:

I think you're all full of SHIT!

Sure. It's because we eat. We are all made of shit (or, less vulgarly said, organic parts)

Religion is what YOU make of it. I'm Christian based. I was brought up to believe in God and the Son-Christ. It's not a political ploy, not a popularity quest and not a personal outcry. It's just the method my morals were built upon.

Sure. But it's also something else. Whether you want it or not, it's a philosophical question: should we accept things and elieve in them without proof. Some people do, some people don't. To me, that's a huge difference.

I'm not talking about about the moral here, some non-believers have what you may call a "Christian moral" and some christian are "evil" (the quotes are on purpose)

When an Athiest proclaims their faith it is usually in such a way that attacks peoples Established Moral Belief system.

An Atheist has no faith. He has an absence of faith. He rejects all faiths. You may call it a faith, but let us call it differently, and think it is different.

If an atheist is distrustful all religions are. Yes, Atheism is a religion!

Sorry but no. Atheism is skepticism. It's not accepting wat the people are saying. You said it yourself: you believe in god BECAUSE you were raised that way. If you weren't, would you have developed a belief in god by yourself ? I don't think so. God is an indoctrination.

I wasn't raised at all by Atheists. My parents didn't care, but weren't "anti-cleric" at all. They just decided I would do exactly as I choose to do. If I wanted to go to Church, or to read the Bible (which I did), fine no problem. Eventually, after thinking of it by myself and reading a lot, I quickly realised the absurdity and childishness of the concept of god.

If you break it down - there's an easy way to view this topic... I myself was raised in an atheist country (up to a certain age). I would certainly not call myself an atheist but I'm not a strict religious fanatic or even follower, except for some holidays etc.

But it's somewhat similar to music... sometimes I ask people what kind of music they like and I get an answer "I like every kind", to which I normally jokingly reply - "You have no taste". It is a joke, but logically it's very true. You either like something or you don't like something, but if you like 'everything' - you have no taste, because 'taste' itself is normally an indication of something particular.

I totally agree with ...

If you break it down - there's an easy way to view this topic... I myself was raised in an atheist country (up to a certain age). I would certainly not call myself an atheist but I'm not a strict religious fanatic or even follower, except for some holidays etc.

But it's somewhat similar to music... sometimes I ask people what kind of music they like and I get an answer "I like every kind", to which I normally jokingly reply - "You have no taste". It is a joke, but logically it's very true. You either like something or you don't like something, but if you like 'everything' - you have no taste, because 'taste' itself is normally an indication of something particular.

I totally agree with skwirlinator's sentiments - you don't have to be religious to have high morals. And so, living using religious (let's keep islam out of this for right now) values is something that makes a society. If you have approach where you don't believe in anything, such as atheists do, and you only believe in doing what 'feels good or feells right', you basically wind up with an anarchy, since there are no rules... and that of course is certainly not a builder for any kind of decent society.

No question that extremists of any religion shouldn't be examples of building a society and I think US has done a good job of melting various religions and still building a functional society, but mostly it can be attributed to values based on Judeo-Christian teachings, such as respecting your neighbor, not stealing, not killing etc.

I wouldn't advocate that you have to be deeply religious to have proper morals, but basic religious values are a positive influence and certainly upbringing at home has a lot to do with that.

I think religion, as many other things in life, can easily be used and abused. But when you make a comment like Guillaume did - it proves the point that Atheism is a religion of a sort.

Guilli, Guilli, Guilli. You’re not just an atheist. You’re a black-belt atheist. You may even be the Grand Pooh-Bah of atheists. With this hard stand of yours against all things religious, I have to wonder:

• When you sneeze and someone says, “God bless you” do you go ballistic?
  
  
• Did it piss you off whenever Robin, the Boy Wonder, said things like “Holy guacamole, Batman!”
  
  
• You’re not running to Blockbusters to pick up a copy of “The Passion of the Christ” or “Monty Python and the Holy Grail” or any Dracula movie (since there’s always someone waving a crucifix in his face), are you?
  
  
• I know that Christmas must be a real humbug to you but how about Santa Claus? You gotta lik...

Guilli, Guilli, Guilli. You’re not just an atheist. You’re a black-belt atheist. You may even be the Grand Pooh-Bah of atheists. With this hard stand of yours against all things religious, I have to wonder:

• When you sneeze and someone says, “God bless you” do you go ballistic?
  
  
• Did it piss you off whenever Robin, the Boy Wonder, said things like “Holy guacamole, Batman!”
  
  
• You’re not running to Blockbusters to pick up a copy of “The Passion of the Christ” or “Monty Python and the Holy Grail” or any Dracula movie (since there’s always someone waving a crucifix in his face), are you?
  
  
• I know that Christmas must be a real humbug to you but how about Santa Claus? You gotta like him even if he is a saint.
  
  
• Wasn’t Mother Teresa cute? C’mon admit it.
  
  
• And just for the hell of it (Oops, you don’t believe in that either. Sorry)… Do these expressions get under you skin: “God damn it!”, “Holy Cow!”, “Sacre Bleu!”
  

RecordSage said:

If you have approach where you don't believe in anything, such as atheists do, and you only believe in doing what 'feels good or feells right', you basically wind up with an anarchy, since there are no rules... and that of course is certainly not a builder for any kind of decent society.

No question that extremists of any religion shouldn't be examples of building a society and I think US has done a good job of melting various religions and still building a functional society, but mostly it can be attributed to values based on Judeo-Christian teachings, such as respecting your neighbor, not stealing, not killing etc.

I don't understand how ethics or morals can be ...

RecordSage said:

If you have approach where you don't believe in anything, such as atheists do, and you only believe in doing what 'feels good or feells right', you basically wind up with an anarchy, since there are no rules... and that of course is certainly not a builder for any kind of decent society.

No question that extremists of any religion shouldn't be examples of building a society and I think US has done a good job of melting various religions and still building a functional society, but mostly it can be attributed to values based on Judeo-Christian teachings, such as respecting your neighbor, not stealing, not killing etc.

I don't understand how ethics or morals can be traced back to religion. The scriptures of Judiasm and Christianity (and probably Islam as well) contain references to war, slavery, sexuality, etc. that we in the twenty-first century would find barbaric. Certainly religious institutions in Europe, for much of the past two thousand years, didn't do a whole lot to promote respect for human life (e.g. crusades, inquisitions).

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying that religious people or Christians are more war-like or intolerant or violent than atheists; I am NOT saying that atheists have better ethics or morals than Christians. I am just saying that being ethical or moral is not intrinsically religious; whether or not someone is "good" has probably nothing to do if they are an atheist, Christian, or pagan; and the fact that our contemporary society pays lip service to the value of human life is not necessarily an outgrowth of so-called Judeo-Christian values.

# When you sneeze and someone says, “God bless you” do you go ballistic?

Yes I do.
But fortunately, I live in a world where people don't say "God bless you" when you sneeze, because they think.

# Did it piss you off whenever Robin, the Boy Wonder, said things like “Holy guacamole, Batman!”

I have not that cultural background, sorry.

# You’re not running to Blockbusters to pick up a copy of “The Passion of the Christ” or “Monty Python and the Holy Grail” or any Dracula movie (since there’s always someone waving a crucifix in his face), are you?

The Passion of The Christ, cetainly not.
On the contrary, I love the Myton Python, and especially the L...

# When you sneeze and someone says, “God bless you” do you go ballistic?

Yes I do.
But fortunately, I live in a world where people don't say "God bless you" when you sneeze, because they think.

# Did it piss you off whenever Robin, the Boy Wonder, said things like “Holy guacamole, Batman!”

I have not that cultural background, sorry.

# You’re not running to Blockbusters to pick up a copy of “The Passion of the Christ” or “Monty Python and the Holy Grail” or any Dracula movie (since there’s always someone waving a crucifix in his face), are you?

The Passion of The Christ, cetainly not.
On the contrary, I love the Myton Python, and especially the Life of Brian, which parodies the life of the Christ. Theatres that played it were burned by Christian fanatics, actually.

# I know that Christmas must be a real humbug to you but how about Santa Claus? You gotta like him even if he is a saint.

As Christmas is a pagan celebration of the summer solstice and nature, I usually am very happy with it. And we have no "Santa Claus" in France, he's called "Father Christmas" (Pere Noel), which is also alright with me. I always celebrated Christmas without the slightest religious mening in it, as do a lot of people.

# Wasn’t Mother Teresa cute? C’mon admit it.

Indeed she was. When she was young, I guess. And I love what she did. So what ?

# And just for the hell of it (Oops, you don’t believe in that either. Sorry) Of course I don't. This is so childish. If you ain't a good boy, you'll go to hell and the big bad bugaboo is gonna eat you!

Do these expressions get under you skin: “God damn it!”, “Holy Cow!”, “Sacre Bleu!”

On the contrary, it was actually considered a blasphemy and severely punished by zealots not so long ago. It's still the case in some particulary obscurantist parts of the world by the way.

I am just saying that being ethical or moral is not intrinsically religious; whether or not someone is "good" has probably nothing to do if they are an atheist, Christian, or pagan;

That is certainly an excellent opinion. And there are a few billion religious people around the world who feel differently. They would state that their moral foundation was based on the core values and beliefs established by their religion. And if they act in accordance with those beliefs… it would indeed be a true statement.

Now, I don't believe you need to subscribe to a particular religion in order to behave morally and ethically. I also don't believe that just because you "say" you...

I am just saying that being ethical or moral is not intrinsically religious; whether or not someone is "good" has probably nothing to do if they are an atheist, Christian, or pagan;

That is certainly an excellent opinion. And there are a few billion religious people around the world who feel differently. They would state that their moral foundation was based on the core values and beliefs established by their religion. And if they act in accordance with those beliefs… it would indeed be a true statement.

Now, I don't believe you need to subscribe to a particular religion in order to behave morally and ethically. I also don't believe that just because you "say" you are <insert religious affiliation here> that you are (by default) moral and ethical.

However, as the original article portrays, a large portion of America believes followers of religious doctrines carry not just perceived attributes, but realized ethical and moral patterns of action. They associate these followers with charity, kindness, selflessness, love, patience, understanding, and character.

Now YOU may not make these associations, but it is clear from the article that a large percentage of people do.

And no, they are not wrong for believing so. They are different from you for believing so.

And while it might make you sad to realize that there exists a growing population of people who act upon convictions you don't share... it is unavoidably something with which you will need to come to terms.

There was a Christian lady who lived next door to an atheist. Every day, when the lady prayed, the atheist guy could hear her. He thought to himself, "She sure is crazy, praying all the time like that. Doesn't she know there isn't a God?"

Many times while she was praying, he would go to her house and harass her, saying "Lady, why do you pray all the time? Don't you know there is no God?" But she kept on praying.

One day, she ran out of groceries. As usual, she was praying to the Lord explaining her situation and thanking Him for what He was gonna do. As usual, the atheist heard her praying and thought to himself, "Humph! I'll fix her."

He went to the grocery store, bought a whole b...

There was a Christian lady who lived next door to an atheist. Every day, when the lady prayed, the atheist guy could hear her. He thought to himself, "She sure is crazy, praying all the time like that. Doesn't she know there isn't a God?"

Many times while she was praying, he would go to her house and harass her, saying "Lady, why do you pray all the time? Don't you know there is no God?" But she kept on praying.

One day, she ran out of groceries. As usual, she was praying to the Lord explaining her situation and thanking Him for what He was gonna do. As usual, the atheist heard her praying and thought to himself, "Humph! I'll fix her."

He went to the grocery store, bought a whole bunch of groceries, took them to her house, dropped them off on the front porch, rang the door bell and then hid in the bushes to see what she would do. When she opened the door and saw the groceries, she began to praise the Lord with all her heart, jumping, singing and shouting everywhere! The atheist then jumped out of the bushes and told her, "You ol' crazy lady, God didn't buy you those groceries, I bought those groceries!" At hearing this, she broke out and started running down the street, shouting and praising the Lord.

When he finally caught her, he asked what her problem was. She said, "I knew the Lord would provide me with some groceries, but I didn't know he was gonna make the devil pay for them!"

knslyr said:

They would state that their moral foundation was based on the core values and beliefs established by their religion. And if they act in accordance with those beliefs… it would indeed be a true statement.

I cannot get into other people's heads, but I think it is plausible that such individuals already have an idea of what it means to be good, and they read that into their religious beliefs. I say this because when you talk about "core values and beliefs established by religions", I am guessing you mean the values and beliefs of the founders of Judiasm and Christianity, including the individuals who set down scripture. We in contemporary society find many of those va...

knslyr said:

They would state that their moral foundation was based on the core values and beliefs established by their religion. And if they act in accordance with those beliefs… it would indeed be a true statement.

I cannot get into other people's heads, but I think it is plausible that such individuals already have an idea of what it means to be good, and they read that into their religious beliefs. I say this because when you talk about "core values and beliefs established by religions", I am guessing you mean the values and beliefs of the founders of Judiasm and Christianity, including the individuals who set down scripture. We in contemporary society find many of those values and beliefs to be archaic (e.g. rules about keeping slaves), and I suspect contemporary religious people ignore those rules but emphasize the ones that just happen to in accordance with contemporary ones (e.g. prohibitions against stealing and killing).

[Sigh] It's always the same thing. Some reasonable believers with a peaceful and civilized attitude come and begin talking about ethical issues, moral values, good intentions. Almost always an argument about "believing in a Supreme Being" accompanies these comments.

Gentlemen,

I personally have no objection for believing in a Supreme Being as a creator of the universe. I appreciate the moral values you've been mentioning. It's of course a very nice thing to advice people not to steal, not to kill etc.

But... We are talking about RELIGION here, not discussing the pros and cons of BELIEF. You certainly know what a religion is and what it had been (and has been) employed in the societies for...

[Sigh] It's always the same thing. Some reasonable believers with a peaceful and civilized attitude come and begin talking about ethical issues, moral values, good intentions. Almost always an argument about "believing in a Supreme Being" accompanies these comments.

Gentlemen,

I personally have no objection for believing in a Supreme Being as a creator of the universe. I appreciate the moral values you've been mentioning. It's of course a very nice thing to advice people not to steal, not to kill etc.

But... We are talking about RELIGION here, not discussing the pros and cons of BELIEF. You certainly know what a religion is and what it had been (and has been) employed in the societies for thousands of years.

Religion is not just moral values and a belief for a Supreme Being. It's primarily an association, an organization claims to rule the human societies by the name of that Supreme Being. It's about governing, it's about power, it's about creating "elite classes" to rule and control the social structure, named the "clergy".

Damn, you all know these, it's a pure POLITICAL thing, brothers!

You believe in a God or Goddess, who created the universe? Though I don't believe, I frankly respect you and defend your right to believe in anything. You feel yourself comfortable and in peace, when you pray? I not only respect, but feel happy for you.

But if you're saying that you support a "corporate being" called Christianity, that has a centuries long "black records" of oppression, murders, tortures, crimes, exploitations of belief, than count me out and I have nothing to say to you.

If there's something to be called SIN, it's the activities of these official religons (Islam, Christianity, Judaism). If there's something to be called BLASPHEMY, it's the definition of God in those religions' holy books, as a revengeful, wrathful, punishing, frightening, jealous Supreme Being.

Period.

But... We are talking about RELIGION here, not discussing the pros and cons of BELIEF. You certainly know what a religion is and what it had been (and has been) employed in the societies for thousands of years.

Religion is not just moral values and a belief for a Supreme Being. It's primarily an association, an organization claims to rule the human societies by the name of that Supreme Being. It's about governing, it's about power, it's about creating "elite classes" to rule and control the social structure, named the "clergy".

I actually agree with you invictus. And perhaps every time we travel down this road it is based on incorrect assumptions we all make.

To clarify, a...

But... We are talking about RELIGION here, not discussing the pros and cons of BELIEF. You certainly know what a religion is and what it had been (and has been) employed in the societies for thousands of years.

Religion is not just moral values and a belief for a Supreme Being. It's primarily an association, an organization claims to rule the human societies by the name of that Supreme Being. It's about governing, it's about power, it's about creating "elite classes" to rule and control the social structure, named the "clergy".

I actually agree with you invictus. And perhaps every time we travel down this road it is based on incorrect assumptions we all make.

To clarify, anytime I speak of "Christianity" or "Christian Values" or "Islam" or "Confucianism" I am not speaking about organized religion. I'm not speaking about a denomination, nor am I speaking about a specific church.

I am speaking about the personal relationship people have with their religious beliefs, not the doctrine handed down by a priest, pastor, prayer-leader or cleric.

For me, this comes from listening to what others believe (Bible study groups, pastors, philosophers) reading the Bible and from prayer. Then, I make up my own mind about what I believe and how I want to act upon those beliefs.

You know, I'm a bit tired of people thinking that Atheism means believing in nothing... That's wrong. Atheists just don't believe in any GODS, or Religion. That doesn't mean they have nor moral beliefs, etc.

If you have approach where you don't believe in anything, such as atheists do

BS. I believe in lots... I just don't attribute my beliefs or moral values to a religion or god.

I also don't see how this discussion is Christian Bashing:

Wow, that's funny, not one word in this whole poll mentioned Christianity, yet somehow every discussion I've read on this topic today ended up bashing God and Christians

I think there are just as many "attacks" on athei...

You know, I'm a bit tired of people thinking that Atheism means believing in nothing... That's wrong. Atheists just don't believe in any GODS, or Religion. That doesn't mean they have nor moral beliefs, etc.

If you have approach where you don't believe in anything, such as atheists do

BS. I believe in lots... I just don't attribute my beliefs or moral values to a religion or god.

I also don't see how this discussion is Christian Bashing:

Wow, that's funny, not one word in this whole poll mentioned Christianity, yet somehow every discussion I've read on this topic today ended up bashing God and Christians

I think there are just as many "attacks" on atheism as any religion in this discussion. And i really don't think they are attacks at all, well some are kind of pointed, but for the most part it is a discussion. Which from what I understand is one of the points of Clipmark

For every Guillaume, (who, granted does seem a bit extreme against religions..), there is a BigBadWolf, or JayMoon who are just as quick to strike him down for giving his opinion.

I'll readily admit I dislike organized religion, not the belief in god or gods, but the organizations that build themselves around these beliefs. These organizations who lobby the government to take the right to choose from a woman who may have been raped, who won't allows two people of the same sex to marry because THEY feel it is wrong (who cares if a big chunk of society feels otherwise... they must be wrong, even if they do believe in god.)

Now, back on topic...

I find it rather discouraging that Atheists are distrusted. I have to ask why? Why must I believe in God to be trusted by you? I have rather strong moral beliefs. Many the same as those of the average "believer". But because I won't say that I believe in god (whether as a Christian, or a Muslim) I am distrustful?

You get 2 points for using expanded English, but you're still wrong in thinking this is illogical quote.

The point here (and the original author will interject if I'm wrong here) is that most of USA right now is religious to one degree or another, into various religions, but still religious. And G*d is something different to different folks, but to ALL of them - he is something very special. So, you take people like yourself, who attack G*d and his principles, teachings etc. and you're attacking that 'very special'... with that - what kind of trust would you expect?

To drive the point home, although I'm sure you're astute enough to comprehend it, let's say someone's attacking your loved ...

You get 2 points for using expanded English, but you're still wrong in thinking this is illogical quote.

The point here (and the original author will interject if I'm wrong here) is that most of USA right now is religious to one degree or another, into various religions, but still religious. And G*d is something different to different folks, but to ALL of them - he is something very special. So, you take people like yourself, who attack G*d and his principles, teachings etc. and you're attacking that 'very special'... with that - what kind of trust would you expect?

To drive the point home, although I'm sure you're astute enough to comprehend it, let's say someone's attacking your loved ones. Would you trust the attacker? I would hope the answer would be 'No', so this statistic isn't surprising at all.

So, you take people like yourself, who attack G*d and his principles, teachings etc. and you're attacking that 'very special'... with that - what kind of trust would you expect?

Maybe at that point of the discussion it could be useful to say again the meaning of the word Atheist.

Wikipedia said:

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This definition includes both those who assert that there are no gods, and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not. Narrower definitions, however, often only qualify those who assert there are no gods as atheists, labelling the others as agnostics or simply non-theists.

W...

So, you take people like yourself, who attack G*d and his principles, teachings etc. and you're attacking that 'very special'... with that - what kind of trust would you expect?

Maybe at that point of the discussion it could be useful to say again the meaning of the word Atheist.

Wikipedia said:

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This definition includes both those who assert that there are no gods, and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not. Narrower definitions, however, often only qualify those who assert there are no gods as atheists, labelling the others as agnostics or simply non-theists.

Who is the one being attacked here ? I don't attack your concept of "god" (whichever that is) because I simply don't elieve it exists. How could I attack something that (according to me) is not there ?

Well, I'm not Christian, so I can't speak for Christian people... but I would say that 'being hated' by anyone isn't anything to brag about. You talk about it as if it was some sort of accomplishment.

And if you don't understand how your comment could be construed as an insult to a Christian - you need to read more books... or see more people or something... this isn't a difficult concept to comprehend.

And based on your concepts etc., and looking at purely mathematical numbers of people who follow Christianity and who follow you - I'd venture to say that practically nobody gives a damn about what YOU think about Christianity.

People can certainly have varied values and everyone should c...

Well, I'm not Christian, so I can't speak for Christian people... but I would say that 'being hated' by anyone isn't anything to brag about. You talk about it as if it was some sort of accomplishment.

And if you don't understand how your comment could be construed as an insult to a Christian - you need to read more books... or see more people or something... this isn't a difficult concept to comprehend.

And based on your concepts etc., and looking at purely mathematical numbers of people who follow Christianity and who follow you - I'd venture to say that practically nobody gives a damn about what YOU think about Christianity.

People can certainly have varied values and everyone should certainly have a right to practice and believe what they believe. Some atheist have a 'healthy' approach, where they simply indicate the fact that they don't believe and that's that. They don't try to instill the fact that they don't believe as their 'dogma' to the world. But you, supposedly so enlightened and righteous, choose to attack people who have some beliefs, which in fact makes you be just as any radical... non-credible.

You probably shudder every time you pass a church... but in reality that was established, as you stated, way before your time and it'll be there way past you... and for the sake of humanity - that's what's important.

RecordSage said:

Well, I'm not Christian, so I can't speak for Christian people... but I would say that 'being hated' by anyone isn't anything to brag about. You talk about it as if it was some sort of accomplishment.

Actually I never thought this single comment (which was half a joke) would get me so much flaming. Of course absolutely I don't "like" being hated, this was just a funny way (I thought anyway) to express what I expressed in my last post above.

And if you don't understand how your comment could be construed as an insult to a Christian - you need to read more books... or see more people or something... this isn't a difficult concept to comprehend.

I alway...

RecordSage said:

Well, I'm not Christian, so I can't speak for Christian people... but I would say that 'being hated' by anyone isn't anything to brag about. You talk about it as if it was some sort of accomplishment.

Actually I never thought this single comment (which was half a joke) would get me so much flaming. Of course absolutely I don't "like" being hated, this was just a funny way (I thought anyway) to express what I expressed in my last post above.

And if you don't understand how your comment could be construed as an insult to a Christian - you need to read more books... or see more people or something... this isn't a difficult concept to comprehend.

I always neeed to read more books and see more people, I agree. We all do.
But I still don't understand how my personal feelings and opinions would offend people. This seems so intolerant to me. It's not as if I was torturing them to make them agree with my point. I just say what I feel. Is that a crime ?

And based on your concepts etc., and looking at purely mathematical numbers of people who follow Christianity and who follow you - I'd venture to say that practically nobody gives a damn about what YOU think about Christianity.

Fortunately, we don't know the same people, and we don't live in the same area of the society. I have (almost) NO christians in the people I know. And besides, I don't care at all that nobody gives a damn about what I think. I do, and the people I love do, that's enough.

They don't try to instill the fact that they don't believe as their 'dogma' to the world.

I haven't read something so funny for a long time. Not believing is a dogma now heh ?

But you, supposedly so enlightened and righteous,

I never "supposed" that. You did. Remember ?

You probably shudder every time you pass a church...

Absolutely not. On the contrary, I usually love churches. Beautiful buildings, where you can feel the History and the weight of age. Only problem is that quite frequently, there are priests inside and you're not allowed to walk in and wander inside because they're doing some strange rituals.

...but in reality that was established, as you stated, way before your time and it'll be there way past you... and for the sake of humanity - that's what's important.

Actually it's wrong. Churches (mostly Cathedrals and other buuig churches) were built in the middle-age and after mainly for political power. Those were hu...

You probably shudder every time you pass a church...

Absolutely not. On the contrary, I usually love churches. Beautiful buildings, where you can feel the History and the weight of age. Only problem is that quite frequently, there are priests inside and you're not allowed to walk in and wander inside because they're doing some strange rituals.

...but in reality that was established, as you stated, way before your time and it'll be there way past you... and for the sake of humanity - that's what's important.

Actually it's wrong. Churches (mostly Cathedrals and other buuig churches) were built in the middle-age and after mainly for political power. Those were huge architectural masterpieces that were built during centuries before being complete, and were mostly a way to make a village or a town a cultural and financial "center" as well as give its owner (bishop or whatever) political and religious power over the area.

Where in the heck do you live?

Actually it's wrong. Churches (mostly Cathedrals and other buuig
churches) were built in the middle-age and after mainly for political
power.

Last time I checked there were plenty of churches
build and being built as we speak... what does that have to do with the
middle ages?

And they always were and are built as places to worship G*d.
Regardless of what the human motivations were in addition to that -
their main purpose was and is as I stated. If you want to prove
that you're right - you need to point me to a single church which is
used for hockey games and such...

And as for their beauty - can't disagree with you there, a lot of the...

Where in the heck do you live?

Actually it's wrong. Churches (mostly Cathedrals and other buuig
churches) were built in the middle-age and after mainly for political
power.

Last time I checked there were plenty of churches
build and being built as we speak... what does that have to do with the
middle ages?

And they always were and are built as places to worship G*d.
Regardless of what the human motivations were in addition to that -
their main purpose was and is as I stated. If you want to prove
that you're right - you need to point me to a single church which is
used for hockey games and such...

And as for their beauty - can't disagree with you there, a lot of them
are incredible... I can't claim to be a big expert on art, but my jaws
did drop when I walked into St. Peter's in Vatican... and nobody's
disputing that in the old days religion was abused to a degree (as it
is today) and these phenomenal structures were built to show power,
might etc... but still they were built as houses of worship...
otherwise they could have just as easily build gorgeous-looking
warehouses or barns or whatever.

HUH? Are you and Invictus just trying to twist things into something they are not? Seriously... what did his statement have at all to do with science? *puzzled look*

It does have a lot to do with rationality and logic. Let me explain, because apparently I need to (I may have been obscure; sorry)

He said:
Actually it's wrong. Churches (mostly Cathedrals and other big
churches) were built in the middle-age and after mainly for political
power.

He said:
If you want to prove that you're right - you need to point me to a single church which is used for hockey games and such...

So my point was that I can't see any logic in this assumption. I didn't say churches wer...

HUH? Are you and Invictus just trying to twist things into something they are not? Seriously... what did his statement have at all to do with science? *puzzled look*

It does have a lot to do with rationality and logic. Let me explain, because apparently I need to (I may have been obscure; sorry)

He said:
Actually it's wrong. Churches (mostly Cathedrals and other big
churches) were built in the middle-age and after mainly for political
power.

He said:
If you want to prove that you're right - you need to point me to a single church which is used for hockey games and such...

So my point was that I can't see any logic in this assumption. I didn't say churches weren't place of worship, I said they were built for political purpose. Please explain me (or RecordSage, explain it yourself) how can anyone with any rational thinking clould understand something like that:

If I want to prove that churches were built for political power, then I need to point a church used for hockey games and such (whatever this "and such" is).


Is that better ?
And by the way, what has Invictus to do with that ? Isn't that you who wants to "twist things nto something they are not" ?

I need to ask since this thread is about Atheists... if you don't believe in a creationist theory, then what do you believe? That we spontaneously appeared out of thin air?

You're right - back to topic

Well this is a very long discussion,but basically, my opinion is that: I don't know.

I tend to "believe" (as I told you, this is not the right word) only things that are scientifically proven, and dismiss what is based on dogma or belief (religious or not - here you have a point - there are also non-religious dogmas)

As i don't see any evidence for creationnism, I dismiss it. The only reason that could be a basis for creationism is that "as we don't know, there has to be s...

I need to ask since this thread is about Atheists... if you don't believe in a creationist theory, then what do you believe? That we spontaneously appeared out of thin air?

You're right - back to topic

Well this is a very long discussion,but basically, my opinion is that: I don't know.

I tend to "believe" (as I told you, this is not the right word) only things that are scientifically proven, and dismiss what is based on dogma or belief (religious or not - here you have a point - there are also non-religious dogmas)

As i don't see any evidence for creationnism, I dismiss it. The only reason that could be a basis for creationism is that "as we don't know, there has to be something, let's call it a creator" and you get creationism. But even that is an assumption.

On the contrary, we DO have scientific evidences for evolutionism (yes, there are some). Like fossils, or similarities in gene pools between species, etc. But simply put, evolution is just a theory (in the meaning "scientific theory") Even if this theory is not perfect and has some flaws, because we certainly don't know everything - how could we ?- I feel this is the most scientifically acceptable theor for now. If tomorrow you (or someone else) come to us with another acceptable theory, I would gladly accept it as another possible explanation. Creationism is not that. There are no scientific basis on it.

But I'm totally aware that evolutionism is not "written in marble" in some unmovable way. As all scientific theory, this can evolve following scientific discoveries. And actually it did so several times in history. The current acceptation of evolutionism is not at all what Darwin hinted long time ago. He was wrong on a number of important points, which were corrected since. Lamark, specifically, did improve the theory a lot. I'm sure we will again and again.

This is my part of the homeworks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionism