 ouyangwulong says: Granted, giving Gore the Nobel Prize may well be a political stunt somewhat out of proportion with the relevance of his actions. On the other hand humorless extreme conservatives have even more distorted notion of Gore. Their obsessive hatred of him is even more surreal than the hype. Why do they care so much about him? Why froth at the mouth over just one politician? Klugman provides some interesting answers, but also seems a little to simplistic. I have long been puzzeled on the vhemence with which conservatives react against environmentalism, and I don't think its as simple as pure greed. I think you said it, they hate him because he has been right. It is war, that's why. It is a cultural based war for the hearts and minds of our children and our nation's future. The liberals/left have used knowledge of psychology and sociology for social engineering to take away our freedoms They weaken the one power that can take on their goal for world government, gun owning, god fearing men. The liberal/left uses trickery and methods of mind control (like the MSM) to make our kids sick in the head, make them hate America, and otherwise undermine the strength of the nuclear family, the church, and the nation so that the only place we'll have left to turn is their big brother world government. To face this threat we must counter everything th... There was only one correct notion in kmcolo's post: "To face this threat we must counter everything they say and do, without thinking, without pause." (Emphasis mine.) It certainly is obvious that people with kmcolo's mindset don't think much. It is my opinion (and perhaps only mine) that people on the Far Right are more dangerous than Muslim terrorists. They want to force their ideas (and their version of Christianity) on all the rest of us. At present, James Dobson seems to be their leader. I think he should be tried for treason and executed. He certainly seeks to overthrow American democracy and replace it with "Christianists." At present, James Dobson seems to be their leader. I think he should be tried for treason and executed.Wow. Wow is right. That's a bit heavy handed don't you think? bignosemousie, seems Dorozhand became a member just to leave that comment. Hmm. Hey, you guys, use the winking smiley face when you are being sarcastic! (eg. I think Bush is a red blooded American hero.  )Otherwise I'm getting very confused! Oh common. If I am to answer your question I need to get into character. I am a method commenter, I have to become the part. There aint no way I'll be using a smiley. common = come on. I always do that!  LOL, ouyangwulong. Anyone who has been around could tell that kmcolo was celebrating National Sarcasm Month. Well, fine, I know and appreciate your humor, I just wouldn't want you to get lynched by a method mob of people who are new to the site! I am a method commenter,Hee! Who "hates" Gore? On the other hand, it is obvious where the hate resides. Although, I must admit, this is just a so-so political hack of a clip, but kmcolo's fine homage to the deadpan sarcasm of Stephen Colbert is worthy of a pop! Purely sarcasm? I was once a conservative Republican Reagan supporter. The apostates are the worst. What was the instant you changed kmcolo? I moved away from Washington D.C., realized that the "liberal/left" really do not have any power at all and that this whole "liberal v. conservative" thing is just bunk to keep us from uniting and throwing the bums out. Red v. Blue: A false dichotomy to keep us divided. The Chinese have a lot to learn from us about how to govern. It really heps to turn off your television too. I. You know, if Niccolo Machiavelli didn't say it, then George Orwell would have: a dictatorship of one will raise ire and scorn, but nobody will notice a dictatorship of two. II. Isn't it kinda funny? Ideological movements always love converts and revile apostates without realizing that one necessarily entails the other. III. I don't even own a TV. Never saw the point. Is that why I'm a lefty? Or is the other way around: as a leftist, I don't want a TV? Although thanks Kmcolo for brining up what I think is one of the biggest problems in partisan politics: the politics of opposition. Instead of standing up for what you believe in (various rights and responsibilities, metaphysical truths, etc.) people come down against things they don't approve of (gay sex, abortion, environmentalism, consumer restraint, having a good time...) This means we base our politics not on what we hold to be true, but who we deem to be our enemies. Then rather than contribute something positive to society, their political position just becomes one of character assassination, basing their politics on hating someone (be it President Bush or President Gore ) When ... True right and left are both reasonable ideologies, but the people whoTrue enough. Ideologies (and religious dogma, hard to tell the difference if any) becomes tools of power. A tribal staircase to power. Another thought on why they hate Gore so much: because he is for the right what George Bush is for the Left. The entire Republican Revolution, Contract with America, and the current Far-Right Conservative Agenda (as well as the ideology of Christian Fundamentalism) is based on a siege mentality. It is based on the idea that conservatives are weak and at the mercy of liberals, and that they are an endangered minority fighting for their lives. By October of 2006, both houses of Congress had been controlled by the extreme right for nearly a decade. The presidency had been theirs for 6 years, and the judicial branch was so conservative that a moderate conservative like Justice Stevens winds up ... Kmcolo, Your comments are interesting. I find them quite insincere. I am a former Liberal. I know many "former" liberals. I have never met a "former" Conservative. I have met Conservatives that vote for Dems , myself included. But not as many Libs that vote Republican. I know from experience that changing a life philosophy is a much more difficult and messy life process than just "moving away" from a certain area. It requires an educational and life overhaul, tossing out everything you think you know and putting back only that which you can affirm. It also starts with a specific moment of clarity, one which is usually never forgotten. Moving away does not sound that profound. The terms "... Well thought & written out as usual ouyangwulong. You are a word smith indeed. "Another thought on why they hate Gore so much: because he is for the right what George Bush is for the Left."-- Ouyangwulong. My point could not be made with greater clarity !!! Kmcolo, did you even read my comment before yours? Your last comment is why I find you insincer. You just agreed with Ouyangwulong on a point YOU claimed was a problem. Unbelievable. did you even read my comment before yours?No I didn't. We posted at the same time. But you are wanting me to be insincere since that would make what you feel more palatable. I didn't say there wasn't a reality willhelm, I just said that we are being played (by the system) into two camps. You see it on the "left" as well. But it is the right that holds all the levers of power now and to what avail? There will be a liberal (or whatever they will call it) ascendancy. And they will be victorious and self-righteous. And they will abuse power and abuse the system and try to take things "too far". And there will be an ascendancy of conservatives (or whatever they will cal... Kmcolo: "You see it on the "left" as well. But it is the right that holds all the levers of power now and to what avail? There will be a liberal (or whatever they will call it) ascendancy. And they will be victorious and self-righteous. And they will abuse power and abuse the system and try to take things "too far". And there will be an ascendancy of conservatives (or whatever they will call them). And they will be victorious and self-righteous. " We agree. But the problem is not the system. The problem is the fat, lazy, ignorant electorate. Especially when people like you say they dislike something, then engage in the lunacy of it all. To clarify the title: it should not be read Why HATE Gore? but instead perhaps WHY hate Gore? Make no mistake, there are people out there who hate the man, just as there are those who hate Bush, or who hate Hilliary Clinton. Now the later two tend to be very forceful and slightly self-centered, which can explain why people react to them with such extremes of love and hate. On the other hand, I think Al Gore is a different phenomenon, and perhaps much more interesting. He is a fairly mild-mannered guy who usually takes fairly non-controversial opinions, and yet he sparks so much intense hatred. (Much like the venom used to denounce movie stars who take a stand on political issues.) So I was... But the problem is not the system. The problem is the fat, lazy, ignorant electorate. Especially when people like you say they dislike something, then engage in the lunacy of it allThen on this we disagree. For democratic systems (when in balance) may not be efficient but as Abe Lincoln implied in his statement, "you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time", there is wisdom in crowds. I am, in my heart, a democrat and will defer to the will of the majority (over a long enough time frame to negate the white and red noise and, tougher still to balance, dependent on the situation)... I can understand why some Democrats hate Bush - because he is a symbol of their own impotence, but why some Republicans would hate Gore strikes me as strange.Maybe it is as Krugman suggested: Krugman quote Which brings us to the biggest reason the right hates Mr. Gore: in his case the smear campaign has failed. He's taken everything they could throw at him, and emerged more respected, and more credible, than ever. And it drives them crazy.In other words, maybe it is the same reason. Be careful Willhelm, you know as well as I: politics is personal. Not all conservatives discuss issues with your level of scholarly detachment, and if you're honest, you'll see you lapse sometimes as well. (Of course, so do I) You said the left cannot accept disagreement without bringing in emotion and making it personal. Here's a quick list of things I have been told about myself by conservatives, some immortalized right here on clipmarks: - I don't know what I'm talking about. - I'm a liar. - I hate my country. - I would betray my family to terrorists. - I am a Nazi. - I am a murderer. - I will be damned for ever by a wrathful God. - I do not deserve the right to vote. - I do not deserve... Not all conservatives discuss issues with your level of scholarly detachmentThat is quite the complement. Ouyangwulong, Your list is noting compared to my list and I never lapse. Every word I say is carefully thought out. I believe expression to be important - even if I put my foot in my mouth - it is a valid expression. My point is simply that the right tend think in intellectual terms the Left tends to be more emotional. The Left cannot see the use of intellect as compassion. They tend not to see disagreement as valid. I can't tell you how many times people say I am mentally deranged. No one here knows me. They only know an online persona. By the way - Your list is nothing compared to mine. LOL. By the way, regarding your list, it should be a badge of honor. You are a sensible and logical person - That is a despised trait among the masses. See? There I go putting my foot in my mout. I should not say masses. However, certainly the CM masses. My point is simply that the right tend think in intellectual terms the Left tends to be more emotional.That is an insight into how you perceive "left and right" but I think it is a bit simplistic. I find quite the opposite but then again that is the crowd I hang out with. You have a long list willhelm, some of which you have earned. Simplistic or not, generalizations are the soul of wisdom. On your second point, you are right, I no doubt have earned them all. And, just like I advised Ouyangwulong, it is a badge of honor. All? I doubt it. Cheers. Willhelm, you are right, I do take a certain amount of guilty pleasure, reveling in my list (and that's not the whole one, just some highlights), however, even though I can take it and laugh, I resent it when those same characterizations are applied to other people, left or right. I'm with you all the way on the need for rational politics rather than ad hommineum politics. However, and you know doubt know what you are doing, by generalizing conservatives as rational and liberals as emotional you are just plain wrong. (I would contest such a Platonic / Aristotelean Dichotomy to begin with, but thats a deconstruction for another for another time...) How can I say so confidently you are wron... On the other hand, you will find most intellectuals on the radical side of politics. Why? Because the goal of reactionary politics and conservativism is fundamentally at odds with the development of new thought. What do reactionaries want? (I use this term to describe conservativism more precisely and to avoid confusion with the other meaning of conservativism, which means showing restraint or being reserved.) The reactionary is someone who reacts against modernism and progress. As some push forward in society on to new frontiers, going beyond the established boundaries, this threatens the presumptions others have based their lives upon. Feeling that their social order is threatened, they ... You know, a thought just occurred to me, since you say you we only know your online persona, Willhelm - you are absolutely right! And that makes me wonder... Is it possible you are simply a method commentator like Kmcolo? That this is one of the most elegant and delicious frauds perpetrated for the sake of some grand cosmic joke? Could it be you are fooling us all? Is Wilhelm in reality a garlic farmer in a hippie commune in rural Oregon? Could you be a Ruckus Collective spy, planted to rally radical liberals by polarizing them with extreme conservative propaganda? Or a Trotskyite fellow traveler hiding from the NKVD's rouge assassins? Or are you a sublime manifestation of God's boredom? ... Lol, Austin. I say yes to all of what you have described wilhelm. I'm also glad this boredom of God is keeping us infidels company here Willhelm a garlic farmer? If only that were true. These sound like such bitter words that follow: We agree. But the problem is not the system. The problem is the fat, lazy, ignorant electorate. Especially when people like you say they dislike something, then engage in the lunacy of it all.Could this be the bitter resentment of a 4th place finisher in Tennesee's District 64 House of Representatives Republican Primary in 2002? They don't sound so ignorant to me. I will give Willhelm credit. He did beat out that pesky 5th place finisher: Wright Enz. So I was wondering why such a milk-toast guy came to be so controversial.Ding-Ding-Ding!! People I talk to who are, let's say, not in tune with Gore's current ventures, haven't shown me ANY seething or energetic hatred for the Gore himself. It is closer to the above quote. It's kind of a wonderment and mild bemusement. The big hubbub as far as I've seen & heard personally - and read - has some to do with his film/project which is based on "may","could","might",and"would".Even "An I.T." in itself is largely taken with a grain, and with a lot of amused dismissal. The big object of more solid irritation on the part of opponents of his project is the MEDIA, and whatever voices a... If not irrelevant, at least Gore is the comic relief in an issue that, without him, would be only monotonous. Which brings us to the biggest reason the right hates Mr. Gore: in hisIsn't Krugman more representative of what you guys are trying to rise above here? (And I have benefited and enjoyed reading your discussion here.It sure is rare to see it go along and stay free of obvious attacks and "I'm right,you're wrong" stubbornness and FAIRLY free of veiled ones.) Krugman has already decided as a given that the emotion is hate, that it is for Gore specifically and individually, and he's decided it is just the right with t... and its freedoms ? You hit the nail on the head. They hate him because he keeps being right!! You bloody legend, Gore! Bobby Rutan, are you an FBI spy monitoring clipmarks? Remember, since I asked, it's now entrapment if you say no! Don't worry Willhelm, if you come run in my district I'll vote for you. (its gerrymandered anyway) Davboz: It's interesting the controversy that the word hate stirs. Do I hate America? No, but I have certainly been accused of it. Do you hate Gore? Probably not. But consider this. If I said liberals don't hate Bush, they are just frustrated by him, you would be right to point out that many people do in fact have blind hatred for the man, and simply presume the worst about him. Similarly, there are those out there (often not so inclined to express themselves through writing a... If Willhelm is the contender for the conservatives on clipmarks then I'm afraid to say that conservatives really aren't well represented here then. His tendency to talk with absolute authority about something for which he knows little and ignore facts that are inconvenient dissuade me from giving him much mind. Please, oh lord, bring us a real contender and not just one who thinks he is. LOL, Ouyangwulong.. I love garlic and still cannot let go of my hippie days! I admitted my remark was a generalization, Ouyangwulong. You are being disingenuous. By the way, I actually recently heard Chomsky describe himself as a Conservative in the pure sense. Yes, I know, strange, isn't it? I will never let go of my Starbucks Lattes, Lexus, weekly manicures and Dr Martens!! BR, You are right. The voters did get it right. I withdrew from the campaign for personal reasons and they elected the person I endorsed. Of course they did, they never do anything for themselves. They did it because of you. Just like ouyangwulong writes comments proving your points, only his comment proceeded yours. We do everything because of you. To think Gore might have won Tennessee if only he could have secured your endorsement. Actually, it might have made the difference in the entire presidential outcome, now that I think of it. I may be PERSONALLY responsible for the travesty that is GW BUSH. Wow, BR< I never looked at like that. How much did Gore lose by in Tennessee. I'll have to look into that. See, ONE man can make a difference. You're right one man can make a difference...... in getting the case work, excuse me "social research" done around your office, if they didn't spend so much taxpayer time on Clipmarks. Again, I do not work for the State. I am contracted by the State and I perform similar services for many private companies. Also, I do not even know what case work is. Thirdly, the prospect that I personally influenced the '00 presidential outcome is quite intriguing. I'm really starting to wonder. You may be a bit surprised, but I actually did work during that campaign and my circles are somewhat large. I never really thought about it. Semantics, the state pays "your organization" for a service. The University of Tennessee isn't funded by the taxpayer? There are large circles being gestured to the side of my head right now. Whatever, BR. I'm sure this is the level of clarity, knowledge, and scrutiny you apply to all your ideas. It really shows. Other than that, your personal attacks and your somewhat unsettling investigation of me leads me to believe those circles being gestured to the side of your head are appropriate. Back to Gore... I do not hate Gore. I do not know a single person that hates Gore. But, I am glad THAT I stopped him from becoming president. Just looking for those peer reviewed publications on "social research" you put out, or maybe co-author, or contribute a significant amount of research towards. I have nothing on Big Brother. Remember your rights aren't being violated. Kind of a funny remark for someone who had plans of public service. Quite a bit of scrutiny there. And, by the way, BR, just because the Gov't pays your welfare check does not mean you work for the gov't. I'm sure you meant "just because the government pays a persons welfare check doesn't mean that person works for the government". Stunning intellect. Or personal experience? Big Brother does not bother me. What bothers me is sick idiots, like yourself, getting their jollies by making my life an issue on clip where I did not offer the information, and then imagining how far your sickness would lead. This is truly beyond the scope of any exchange. You are a sick creep! I'm sensing hatred. I'm shocked that you could run for public office and then be incensed that someone found out public information. It does not correlate. What do you always call this feigned ..... what is it ...? Many taxpayer funded institutions have to make public their expenditures. That's not anything private. It's all public. A little advice. Want to remain secret. Don't use your name as your user name. It's like when you put your trash out on the sidewalk. You have placed it there for the public. Remember, wear it as a badge of honor. Big brother is far more dangerous than I ever will be. BobbyRutan, I find all this talk about Willhelm's personal life disturbing. He didn't offer up this information but given that it is "easy" to find, I'm sure he wasn't hiding. However, it is disturbing to me every time someone posts personal information about another person on Clipmarks. That can be really dangerous. However you feel about Willhelm, I'm sure you wouldn't wish him harm, or wish his family harm. Are you trying to make a point? Can you make your point another way? I am respectfully asking you (and every other Clipper) to leave another's personal information out of Clipmarks. Gore is a Bore Oh please, I haven't divulged any more information than willhelm has made public right here on clipmaks through statements or his profile (I am not in charge of his profile correct). He divulges more information about himself than I could possibly hope to, or want to. When you run for public office you open yourself up to the whole world, you are now in the public domain. That's why you can never win a libel suit as a politician when someone makes derogatory statements about you. Please. BR, W is under your skin. He lives for this. If you want to really piss him off, ignore him. Yes, BR, That would really piss me off. Please ignore me. Actually, I never revealed many of the things you have brought up, but that is beside the point. The point is my personal life is irrelevant to this clip and your investigation is quite creepy. Also, this probably makes a dozen times you attack my personal life, business dealings, or other irrelevent, undivulged info. I have never said the names of any companies or entities that I do business with, yet you seek to dig them up. Why? I never divulged any political past. Yet, you choose to post it on a thread as some sort of attack. Why? You constantly belittle, without understanding or knowing, what I do for a living. Do you even hav... Again, I do not work for the State. I am contracted by the State and I perform similar services for many private companies.Hello? And where do you think the money the State is paying come from, the happy non-taxpayer fairy? You work for them becaus they are your clients. Whatever! You are an idiot to presume you now how I get paid. Get a job, Ratlifar. It may give you better insight into the complexities of the business world. I'm with bignosemousie. BR has a point, once you run for public office, you do make yourself a public figure and whether one likes it or not (and I don't) that information is out there. One has to be careful what one reveals on the Internet and in public records. Also you have brought your "qualification's" up more than once. And how do you know that I have or do not have a job. I have done contract work in the past and that means I had to obey the rules set by my employer/client. Thats how goverment contracts work. Now you may have several layers of insulation (both contractual and managerial) but at the end of the day the money comes from the taxpayers, does it not? Now if he where to publish your [u]home add[b]... Surly is what Willhelm does. It is his trade mark. His clipmarks persona perhaps. Indeed....and I think its time we did something about it, or more to the point...nothing. The question raised by the clip was (and still is) "Why hate Gore?" which is a good question. Is it because he was a bad leader or politician? Maybe he is a constant reminder of how things could have (or should have bee)? Perhaps its his association with the Clinton's? Or that he elevated Lieberman to the national stage (to the detriment of the nation and the world)? Or that he is one to visit Buddhist temples? Could it be that he has won so many awards, each one in defiance of the WH wishes and the U.S. current public and international policies? Good questions all..... That's why you can never win a libel suit as a politician when someone makes derogatory statements about you.In the U.S. ratilfar said:He has posted a clipper's address before. He has posted a clipper's address before.If Bobby Rutan has actually done that, then that is beyond the pale and just more evidence upon the mountain of evidence that the CM team is full of it. You can attack me any way you want. In fact, kmcolo is right, I like it. It says more about you than me. But this type of crap is SICK ! In fact, kmcolo is rightWow, I didn't think I'd ever see you say those words Willhelm. And the Rockies are going to the World Series. I know why the Earth is warming. Conservation of energy. Hell has frozen over. Some thoughts. If I used my real name here I would expect that anyone could find me. Actually I think it would be really easy to find me. It is not the publication of my name/address/phone number that would be the problem in that instance. It would be the way that it is used. It sounds like it was used as a method to intimidate and that is just plain wrong. It would be the way that it is used. It sounds like it was used as a method to intimidate and that is just plain wrong.Right. That's funny kmcolo. We have agreed many times. However, our agreement has come wrapped up in a larger disagreement. I should be clear and say that I have agreed with you many times. I don't think you have ever agreed with me. Actually I was conducting some "social research". Willhelm (after claiming more than once that he doesn't pay attention to anything I say or clip) showed up on one of my clips. One where Merle Haggard said the Republican party has nothing to offer but fear. I made a cute little change up in some words to one of his songs and one line says "We don't spy on our neighbors down on mainstreet". To which willhelm commented, all polite and like: That's pretty good BR. No "FEAR" there at all. No way! You're being spied on, huh? Are they under your bed right now? You're losing your freedom? Really? How have you lost your freedom? That garbage really doesn't "frighten" me. I gues... ...to leave my sink area. Especially after reading Mohir's clip on Ant's. I abhor violence but have gone to the defense of others that were attacked. It's not in my nature. Paranoia will destroy ya. The government collects far more information than what 15 minutes of google searching reveals. Paranoia will destroy ya.Judging by your vast record of comments on 'Big Brother" I would say paranoia has already done it's work on you. BR, I think you miss the point, which actually makes my point more clear. Also, you are not telling the truth. You have engaged in an ongoing and relentless search and attack over a long period of time. Almost to the point of obsession. You can say what you want about me. That's fine. I'll even accept your insults, but please quit pretending this is a casual incident. You have been at this for months with me and I have divulged none of the info to you. That's a mischaracterization and you know it. I stopped showing up on your clips long ago. However we do cross paths on other peoples clips. It was quite a rosy appearance you made on my clip though. My major concern with big brother is when it is going to be used on individuals in the political arena to eavesdrop on their communications and strategy making. Being able to do this allows one side to be prepared for shooting down the other sides talking points and making a better impression on the voting public. In reality that's noting new only the technology is much better today. That's what got Tricky Dick Nixon into his impeachment problems. It is concerning that individuals have claime... BobbyRutan said:Your use of a clipper's personal information, regardless of how simple it was to Google and track down, was inappropriate and rude. My major concern with big brother is when it is going to be used onYou may want to watch your own side on this matter. Apparently Hillary Clinton's team has this down to an art. You may want to look into the recent rehashing of old allegations. Still paranoia. Or, is it just politics? I don't think you have ever agreed with me.I'm sure I have. And I think I've even used the "Didn't believe that I'd ever see the day" schtick before. But the waggish "hell freezing over/conservation of energy" thing just had to come out, not to mention a plug for the Colorado Rockies so... I'm thinking we'll hit 100 comments at any moment. @willhelm I am aware of the accusation of Hillary's eavesdropping. Yes I believe big bother powers will be misused by both sides of the political spectrum that have a chance to use those powers. She isn't my favorite candidate on "my side". And personally I would like to see a political system, whether a parliamentary system or something else, that would allow for more realistic options in political affiliation. Hey! You guys! I logged off, went to a bar, watched a movie, and then slept for like four hours. In that amount of time I got something like 70 emails on comments. This is fascinating on many levels. I agree with Skwirlinator - Gore is a Bore. Sure I like the man, although he is a little bit dorky, but mostly he just makes me want to fall asleep. I wouldn't have even read this clip, if it hadn't been for the fact that I clipped it. I clipped this as an afterthought, since I thought Klugman asked a valid question then gave a slightly smug and over-simplified answer. This of course leads to other interesting questions, such as the ones Ratilfar proposed, and I like questions... But more in... | ||||||||||||
,I assume he means in the eyes of those who consider him credible? Which sounds dumb, I know, but by definition his statement also must imply that Gore emerges NOT credible as well, to those who don't consider him credible. Krugman just dismisses those as automatically wrong and totally irrelevant.
