A Jew Seeking Justice

As a Jewish American, I feel it is finally my responsibility to opine on behalf of my Palestinian sisters and brothers:

Imagine if a group of strangers marched into your home and told you that you couldn't live there anymore. This is the home that your parents inhabited; your grandparents bequeathed to them. These strangers told you that thousands of years ago, their ancestors had populated this area, albeit for a short while. Now they have come to take what's rightfully yours and call it their own. When you don't voluntarily leave, they threaten you with violence. Fearing imminent danger, you take your...

A Jew Seeking Justice

As a Jewish American, I feel it is finally my responsibility to opine on behalf of my Palestinian sisters and brothers:

Imagine if a group of strangers marched into your home and told you that you couldn't live there anymore. This is the home that your parents inhabited; your grandparents bequeathed to them. These strangers told you that thousands of years ago, their ancestors had populated this area, albeit for a short while. Now they have come to take what's rightfully yours and call it their own. When you don't voluntarily leave, they threaten you with violence. Fearing imminent danger, you take your children and flee. These people pay you a pittance of the value of your land without your consent and label you an 'absentee landlord'. When you return to reclaim your home, your land, the strangers argue that because you separated yourself from your belongings, they are no longer yours. Because they have attained the title to your home and land, you no longer have the right of possession.

This is the story of Israel - a stolen land taken from the Palestinians. The Zionist movement was founded on the principle that the Jews deserved a land; a land that they could call their State; their home but they would only be able to identify themselves as a wholly Jewish state at the expense of uprooting an existent civilization, the indigenous Arab population.

The Jewish claim to Palestine is based on the existence of a kingdom that reigned for only 414 years.....

This is the story of Canada, Australia and the United States but not Israel, which had an indigenous Jewish population dating back at least (according to the archaeological record) 3,000 years.

Who are these Palestinians you speak of? At the time, and I'm speaking here of the mid- to late 1800s, which was when European Zionists were beginning to settle in earnest, Palestine was occupied by a very diverse group that included Arabs, Druze, Bedouin, Jews, Christians, Samaritans, Turks, Egyptians and others. They were in no sense an homogeneous population, and [u]no attempt had been made to merge these various peoples into anything resembling a nation or state. In other words, their was no clai...

This is the story of Canada, Australia and the United States but not Israel, which had an indigenous Jewish population dating back at least (according to the archaeological record) 3,000 years.

Who are these Palestinians you speak of? At the time, and I'm speaking here of the mid- to late 1800s, which was when European Zionists were beginning to settle in earnest, Palestine was occupied by a very diverse group that included Arabs, Druze, Bedouin, Jews, Christians, Samaritans, Turks, Egyptians and others. They were in no sense an homogeneous population, and no attempt had been made to merge these various peoples into anything resembling a nation or state. In other words, their was no claim to self-determination by any of them, except the Jews. Arab nationalism was based solely on an imperialistic need to drive out foreigners. Is that something a nation can be based on? We're seeing the results of that sort of mindset now in Gaza, where familial clans and warlords have defined identity - not Palestinian nationalism.

But, let's stay focused. Let me ask you this question: you say you're Jewish. On what grounds? Are you observant?

Righthand, since this is an essentially an internal debate on Jewish identity, you'll have to get Jennifer Balkan to respond to me. She identifies as Jewish, even citing halacha in her original article, but is probably secular. Whatever. It's her choice, but millions of Jews identify as members of a nationality. And that's their choice. Anyway, the article is riddled with historical errors, half-truths and a few outright lies.

But since you gave me a Jewish quote about Israel, here's one from an Arab: "Reject hate, embrace love. Bring out the best in Islam by showing your compassion, gratitude and forgiveness. Make the holy land truly holy by giving Israel and the Jewish people the respect ...

Righthand, since this is an essentially an internal debate on Jewish identity, you'll have to get Jennifer Balkan to respond to me. She identifies as Jewish, even citing halacha in her original article, but is probably secular. Whatever. It's her choice, but millions of Jews identify as members of a nationality. And that's their choice. Anyway, the article is riddled with historical errors, half-truths and a few outright lies.

But since you gave me a Jewish quote about Israel, here's one from an Arab: "Reject hate, embrace love. Bring out the best in Islam by showing your compassion, gratitude and forgiveness. Make the holy land truly holy by giving Israel and the Jewish people the respect they deserve in their tiny little country. This is not a crisis over land. It is a crisis of the soul; a crisis in our faith, judgement and self confidence. Israel should not be regarded as an enemy, but as a blessing to our neighborhood. We need not fear peace, but embrace it." Nonie Darwish.

And this is from the Koran: [17:104] "And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, scatter and live all over the world and when the end of the world is near we will gather you again into the Promised Land."

The waft of self righteous comment is overpowering. I am neither Jewish or Arab, but I respect both for their contributions to the world. No side is right in this conflict, both have committed wrongs and the insane on both sides incense ordinary people to rage. The fact of the matter is that while second generation Jews are pursuing damages from the German government for the psychological trauma of the Holocaust, the Lebanese,Palestinian and any other neighbouring nation that poses a threat is crushed ruthlessly underfoot. Who is wearing the jackboot now ? As for compassion maybe if you put down the gun and extended the hand of friendship, the people pushed to despair might see some hope and...

The waft of self righteous comment is overpowering. I am neither Jewish or Arab, but I respect both for their contributions to the world. No side is right in this conflict, both have committed wrongs and the insane on both sides incense ordinary people to rage. The fact of the matter is that while second generation Jews are pursuing damages from the German government for the psychological trauma of the Holocaust, the Lebanese,Palestinian and any other neighbouring nation that poses a threat is crushed ruthlessly underfoot. Who is wearing the jackboot now ? As for compassion maybe if you put down the gun and extended the hand of friendship, the people pushed to despair might see some hope and return the gesture. When their is no hope, desperate measures are seen as normal.The Jewish Holocaust is not unique, ask the Armenian's, Irish, Native Americans, most of South American nations, Chechen and countless other nations. So get off your high horse and deal with it. The problem the Jews have with the Palestinians is that they took Moshe's advice and picked up the stones at their feet to hurl against their oppressors.

As for compassion maybe if you put down the gun and extended the hand of friendship, the people pushed to despair might see some hope and return the gesture.

But this has been done MANY times.

Jews have no problems with 'Palestinians.' The Arabs are our cousins, and they have very legitimate grievances. But, there are only two solutions to the problem as it now stands: voluntary self-destruction by israel, which is obviously a non-starter, or a negotiated compromise that ensures security and respect for Israel, and independance and justice for the Palestinians. And I believe that a negotiated settlement is possible, but only after we stop empowering extremists and condoning ...

As for compassion maybe if you put down the gun and extended the hand of friendship, the people pushed to despair might see some hope and return the gesture.

But this has been done MANY times.

Jews have no problems with 'Palestinians.' The Arabs are our cousins, and they have very legitimate grievances. But, there are only two solutions to the problem as it now stands: voluntary self-destruction by israel, which is obviously a non-starter, or a negotiated compromise that ensures security and respect for Israel, and independance and justice for the Palestinians. And I believe that a negotiated settlement is possible, but only after we stop empowering extremists and condoning violence as a reasonable means of achieving a political goal (ie. the destruction of Israel)

The Jewish Holocaust is not unique, ask the Armenian's, Irish, Native Americans, most of South American nations, Chechen and countless other nations.

Amergin, excellent but...

This will not be heard. Zionist have to believe that their suffering was unique. Try it. It is also the way that the Zionist believe that the effects of the Holocaust is passed down the generations. That feeling of unique victimhood is needed to justify their inhuman treatment of the Palestinians.

Their society is being destroyed by their behaviour! Just like SEX OFFENDERS, those that were ABUSED have now become the ABUSERS. The cycle must be stopped for the sake of mankind.

In life the majority in th...

The Jewish Holocaust is not unique, ask the Armenian's, Irish, Native Americans, most of South American nations, Chechen and countless other nations.

Amergin, excellent but...

This will not be heard. Zionist have to believe that their suffering was unique. Try it. It is also the way that the Zionist believe that the effects of the Holocaust is passed down the generations. That feeling of unique victimhood is needed to justify their inhuman treatment of the Palestinians.

Their society is being destroyed by their behaviour! Just like SEX OFFENDERS, those that were ABUSED have now become the ABUSERS. The cycle must be stopped for the sake of mankind.

In life the majority in the middle follow either of the two extremes, the good or evil. Since 911 it is evil that dominates with one state benefiting. FEAR is their currency. A world at war is their hope. Their finger is on the trigger of the assassin's gun even if many levels apart, particularly if others are blamed.

And re the article quoted. If I could not find one disgruntled Christian Lebanese willing to sell out to Zionism, then I'm not an Irishman. And the title could just as easily be "Israel will not progress before they face the Truth"

Absolute rubbish.

Jewish groups define the Holocaust as unique because it was. As is each and every other genocide. Each is unique to its people, time and place. That doesn't mean one groups has suffered more than any other. But, I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find another community that lost 1 in 3 - seriously think about that for a minute - ONE in THREE Jews died during the 20th century. That's why it's so offensive when groups talk about Palestinian genocide - not to belittle their suffering which is real - but to speak of Palestinian ethnic cleansing, when their population has INCREASED ten-fold isn't just disingenuous, it's insulting.

Jewish groups have been at the for...

Absolute rubbish.

Jewish groups define the Holocaust as unique because it was. As is each and every other genocide. Each is unique to its people, time and place. That doesn't mean one groups has suffered more than any other. But, I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find another community that lost 1 in 3 - seriously think about that for a minute - ONE in THREE Jews died during the 20th century. That's why it's so offensive when groups talk about Palestinian genocide - not to belittle their suffering which is real - but to speak of Palestinian ethnic cleansing, when their population has INCREASED ten-fold isn't just disingenuous, it's insulting.

Jewish groups have been at the forefront of efforts to help stop the genocide in Darfur. It is actually now a growing issue in Israel that the government has agreed to deport Sudanese refugees (they're FLOCKING to racist, apartheid Israel!) as per an agreement with Egypt, but Jews within and outside Israel are hoping money can be found to allow them to stay. Israel has already donated MILLIONS of dollars while other countries have done nothing. After a substantial donation in May, Israel is now on the top 10 list of countries who have donated most to Darfur refugees.

As for the Holocaust, it's worth noting that Holocaust Museums regularly feature exhibits on the murder of Christians, Roma, Gays and Lesbians and others. PREVENTION of future genocides is a major function of Holocaust, indeed Jewish education. Frankly, I think you've been reading too much Norman Finkelstein.

And it should come as no surprise that many First Nations peoples identify not with Palestinians but with ISRAEL, a nation that has survived and been reborn despite systemic persecution. "We're looking at you [Israelis] as sort of our mentors, how you've gotten your land back, how you're excelling at economic development. You're doing really well," said O'Brien, the AFN regional chief for the Yukon territory.

"One of the most striking aspects of the Jewish experience is the incredible resiliency of the Jewish people. [u]That is quite similar to the indigenous peoples, or the first peoples of Canada. ..We've both been persecuted. We've both been discriminated against. We've been denied our h...

And it should come as no surprise that many First Nations peoples identify not with Palestinians but with ISRAEL, a nation that has survived and been reborn despite systemic persecution. "We're looking at you [Israelis] as sort of our mentors, how you've gotten your land back, how you're excelling at economic development. You're doing really well," said O'Brien, the AFN regional chief for the Yukon territory.

"One of the most striking aspects of the Jewish experience is the incredible resiliency of the Jewish people. That is quite similar to the indigenous peoples, or the first peoples of Canada. ..We've both been persecuted. We've both been discriminated against. We've been denied our homeland. We've been denied our rightful place in the world," said AFN National Chief Phil Fontaine. http://www.standwithus.com/news_post.asp?NPI=796

But have you really tried with honesty in your hearts or with the club behind your back. The only way to destroy fundamentalism is to make it unattractive to the masses. A multi headed hydra first needs to be starved of it's breeding ground, hate, poverty and despair, to be replaced by hope, dialogue and prosperity. Focus on the younger generations, squeeze out those who seek to destroy. Give the Palestinians a goal.I do not believe for a second that Israel should drop it's guard, but some old fashioned finesse to it's security is better than a general bludgeon on the population. Compromise is the only option, all else will fail.
The Nazis saw themselves as a shining example to humanity as w...

But have you really tried with honesty in your hearts or with the club behind your back. The only way to destroy fundamentalism is to make it unattractive to the masses. A multi headed hydra first needs to be starved of it's breeding ground, hate, poverty and despair, to be replaced by hope, dialogue and prosperity. Focus on the younger generations, squeeze out those who seek to destroy. Give the Palestinians a goal.I do not believe for a second that Israel should drop it's guard, but some old fashioned finesse to it's security is better than a general bludgeon on the population. Compromise is the only option, all else will fail.
The Nazis saw themselves as a shining example to humanity as well. Don't use your peoples suffering as an excuse or justification for the injustices of the middle east. Who guards the guardians ? It is a slippery path you walk upon.

If you're saying that Israel has over-reacted at times, and in effect (even if not in desire) committed collective punishment, we agree. It's a very tricky situation. I was actually at a checkpoint 3 years ago and it was a very unfortunate situation. And most are nothing like the what you see on TV. Here's an actual checkpoint: http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/19639.shtml

But, I would add, I've also spoken to Israelis who have had to man these checkpoints and they're understandably very conflicted. But they've also described the terrible anguish and guilt they feel when they hear that a bomber has struck and may have come through their checkpoint. There needs to be a better syste...

If you're saying that Israel has over-reacted at times, and in effect (even if not in desire) committed collective punishment, we agree. It's a very tricky situation. I was actually at a checkpoint 3 years ago and it was a very unfortunate situation. And most are nothing like the what you see on TV. Here's an actual checkpoint: http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/19639.shtml

But, I would add, I've also spoken to Israelis who have had to man these checkpoints and they're understandably very conflicted. But they've also described the terrible anguish and guilt they feel when they hear that a bomber has struck and may have come through their checkpoint. There needs to be a better system - no question - but it works both ways. if there were no attempts to smuggle bombs through, there would be no checkpoints. When I first visited the region, back in 1978, I had to pass through only one quick crossing. I walked freely through Bethlehem, Hebron and other places in the West Bank. The economy was booming then because Israelis could visit and shop in Arab towns, and Palestinians could work in Israel. This was what the extremists wanted stopped, and they succeeded because, in part, Israel fell into a trap and responded exactly as terror groups expected they would. Were there other choices? Probably, but hindsight is always 20/20. It's funny to think that a few years ago one of the harshest critics of a security fence (or whatever else you want to call it) was Ariel Sharon, who was loathe to define Israel's borders as not including Judea and Samaria. Things change; that's why the only really important question is: what can be done NOW?

Absolute rubbish

Jewish groups define the Holocaust as unique because it was. As is each and every other genocide. Each is unique to its people, time and place. That doesn't mean one groups has suffered more than any other. But, I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find another community that lost 1 in 3 - seriously think about that for a minute - ONE in THREE Jews

Ireland lost 1 in 2 - seriously think abut that for a minute - ONE in TWO Irish, in three years!!! We bled people in every generation up until very very recently.

They became the most loyal American, Australian, British or wherever. They never tried to keep a foot in each of two countries. They were the wrong ...

Absolute rubbish

Jewish groups define the Holocaust as unique because it was. As is each and every other genocide. Each is unique to its people, time and place. That doesn't mean one groups has suffered more than any other. But, I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find another community that lost 1 in 3 - seriously think about that for a minute - ONE in THREE Jews

Ireland lost 1 in 2 - seriously think abut that for a minute - ONE in TWO Irish, in three years!!! We bled people in every generation up until very very recently.

They became the most loyal American, Australian, British or wherever. They never tried to keep a foot in each of two countries. They were the wrong religion and were badly discriminated against in each country. We are as proud of the contribution that our Irish departed have made in difficult circumstances in their new countries as we are of things here in Ireland.

Are we complaining? No. We wanted the freedom to manage ourselves good or bad, by ourselves in our OWN country. We gave up the 'Begging Bowl' and are now at peace with all our neighbours while living in the most peaceful, prosperous place on earth.

Living up to the tag of 'most loved nation' is not a choir but a privilege - our travelling sports supporters are officially the best. The tag may not be full deserved internationally but among white, english speaking nation, we have no serious opposition!

Contrast that with the ZIONIST state of ISRAEL.

Not to minimize your suffering, but the figure I see everywhere is one in nine, over a 4 or 5 year period. Regardless, it was devastating and the British bear responsibility for a crime against humanity. Millions of people left Ireland, broken and destitute. You're correct that the Irish were discriminated against in many places, and they certainly played a crucial role in the growth of the US and Canada.We don't disagree here. But, we're also talking about an event that happened over 150 years ago! For pete's sake, seriously. I would think that the emotional psychological effects on the generation that endured the famine must have been overwhelming! I was born less than 20 years afte...

Not to minimize your suffering, but the figure I see everywhere is one in nine, over a 4 or 5 year period. Regardless, it was devastating and the British bear responsibility for a crime against humanity. Millions of people left Ireland, broken and destitute. You're correct that the Irish were discriminated against in many places, and they certainly played a crucial role in the growth of the US and Canada.We don't disagree here. But, we're also talking about an event that happened over 150 years ago! For pete's sake, seriously. I would think that the emotional psychological effects on the generation that endured the famine must have been overwhelming! I was born less than 20 years after the Holocaust. I can name relatives who died, and where it happened. It's still real to me, as it is to those who survived, and those who witnessed the war. You just can't compare. Ask me again in 100 years and we'll see how things are going. I can tell you that attitudes are already changing; young Jews identify less and less with the Holocaust (which is at it should be) and more with positive aspects of Jewish life.

As for Irish-British relations, are either of you seriously trying to tell me that Ireland and Britain kissed and made up and everything has been peachy ever since? Come one. At least two of us here are old enough to remember Irish bombs blowing up in London. And what about Irish republican sympathy for the Nazis during the Second World War (and blatant anti-Semitism to boot) What sort of selective amnesia are you suffering from? The British and Irish "moved on"? Hardly.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. That is why history is key to peace, learn from it. Would you rather a people had no voice ? Have the millennia of diaspora taught you nothing ? Where was the humility in your victory ? You have assumed the arrogance of your oppressors, be careful that the walls do not come down on you.
History is written by the victors and the first casualty of war is the truth. As for 150 years ago, my nation was on the brink of death from starvation and the greed of foreigners who believed they owned the land of my people. Ring a bell or are you so blinkered you fail to see the comparison. Again trivialise the suffering of others and blame everyone else for ...

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. That is why history is key to peace, learn from it. Would you rather a people had no voice ? Have the millennia of diaspora taught you nothing ? Where was the humility in your victory ? You have assumed the arrogance of your oppressors, be careful that the walls do not come down on you.
History is written by the victors and the first casualty of war is the truth. As for 150 years ago, my nation was on the brink of death from starvation and the greed of foreigners who believed they owned the land of my people. Ring a bell or are you so blinkered you fail to see the comparison. Again trivialise the suffering of others and blame everyone else for your problems.
But when you finally leave the siege mentality behind you and realise that the whole world is not Anti-Semitic. MAYBE YOU COULD SEE THE WORLD THROUGH THE EYES OF THOSE WHO LIVE IN FEAR OF THE LIBERAL STATE.
No one seeks appeasement with lunatics, only firm peace through strength of character. Or have you forgotten that this was what saw your people through hatred and oppression. Now the power is your hands the lessons have been forgotten.

As for Blatant Anti-Semitism, the Jewish community was a very respected part of the community in Ireland. Your first President was raised in Dublin and fused with the idealism of the new republic. The Goldberg family in Cork were defenders of the poor and defenceless. They were Lord Mayors and respected businessmen. They were pillars of our community who still command respect to this day. We have a section of the city still called Jew town to this day. My grandfather used to light the fires of Jewish families on their day of rest and they still hold a fond place in his memory.
As for the bombings in the troubles, they were committed by a small hardcore group of republicans.
As for moving fo...

As for Blatant Anti-Semitism, the Jewish community was a very respected part of the community in Ireland. Your first President was raised in Dublin and fused with the idealism of the new republic. The Goldberg family in Cork were defenders of the poor and defenceless. They were Lord Mayors and respected businessmen. They were pillars of our community who still command respect to this day. We have a section of the city still called Jew town to this day. My grandfather used to light the fires of Jewish families on their day of rest and they still hold a fond place in his memory.
As for the bombings in the troubles, they were committed by a small hardcore group of republicans.
As for moving forward the Irish nation in a referendum relinquished the right to call the north of Ireland theirs in the constitution of the republic. So paving the way to peace talks with the Unionists. We respected the rights of the Unionists beliefs. The Irish flag is a tri-colour, green being the nationalists[catholic majority], white representing peace between both groups and orange [protestant majority]. It came about with the foundation of our state and is meant to symbolise peace on our island. Our flag will always represent peace to its people. So again look to history for your lessons and learn some humility.
As for sympathy towards Nazism large numbers of Irish men and women joined the allied forces to fight the Nazis, in the Spanish civil war large numbers of my country men saw the evils of fascism and fought in the International brigades. Wherever there was oppression there was an Irishman fighting it. And that was the difference we fought for justice against desperate odds, you ran away and died. Now the boot is on your foot you think nothing of wielding it freely. So stop feeling sorry for yourself.

First off, my apologies if my wording let you to believe I was accusing ALL Irish of anti-Semitism. That was not my intent. It was an aside about one particular right-wing group in Ireland. I'm well aware of Ireland's hospitality toward all newcomers. A few years ago, I actually spent some time travelling through Europe with a charming Dubliner who never said a disparaging word about anyone. My point was that sweeping statements about relations between the Irish and British are untenable; there will always be groups who will feel (and act upon) these bitter feelings. And I HAVE known many of Irish descent who have spoken very angrily of the British; not everyone has 'moved on.'

You...

First off, my apologies if my wording let you to believe I was accusing ALL Irish of anti-Semitism. That was not my intent. It was an aside about one particular right-wing group in Ireland. I'm well aware of Ireland's hospitality toward all newcomers. A few years ago, I actually spent some time travelling through Europe with a charming Dubliner who never said a disparaging word about anyone. My point was that sweeping statements about relations between the Irish and British are untenable; there will always be groups who will feel (and act upon) these bitter feelings. And I HAVE known many of Irish descent who have spoken very angrily of the British; not everyone has 'moved on.'

You say yourself, "Finally we are at a stage of mutual friendship and respect." This process has taken MANY, MANY years, and cost many lives. What should be obvious is that violence tends to be perpetuated when extremists are permitted to hijack political agendas; this is as true for Ireland as it is Palestine. There have been many attempts at reconciliation and compromise going back at least 80 years. Frankly, if both Arabs and Jews had been left to their own devices, this conflict would have ended decades ago; it has been the interference of governments that benefited from the conflict, at first the British, later the Soviets and Americans, the Arab states, and certainly right-wing groups within Israel and the Arab world, that has time and time again prevented Arabs and Jews from finding a middle ground that provided both security and justice to both parties. In 1938, a British newspaper wrote, “[the locals] have no great sympathy with the Arab rebels who are trying to stem the tide of Jewish immigration and demanding an Arab government for Palestine; they merely want to be left alone to sow and harvest, to marry and find the wherewithal in these troubled times to bring up their families." From News Chronicle, quoted in Mufti of Jerusalem: The Story of Haj Amin el Husseini

That said, it's time to end this discussion. It's obvious from the rampant generalizations, the hallow rhetoric and cliches, that you don't really have the background for this sort of discussion. I enjoy debating for the opportunity to learn; I cannot learn from those who know nothing other than what they`ve read on one-sided websites and from biased opinion pieces. I was particularly dismayed when my response to Righthand`s question about future options (on another discussion) elicited a reaction so childish, I can only assume he didn`t understand what I wrote.

I have no desire to condescend. I also don`t have time to respond to unoriginal screeds. Debate and argue for yourselves, please. ...

That said, it's time to end this discussion. It's obvious from the rampant generalizations, the hallow rhetoric and cliches, that you don't really have the background for this sort of discussion. I enjoy debating for the opportunity to learn; I cannot learn from those who know nothing other than what they`ve read on one-sided websites and from biased opinion pieces. I was particularly dismayed when my response to Righthand`s question about future options (on another discussion) elicited a reaction so childish, I can only assume he didn`t understand what I wrote.

I have no desire to condescend. I also don`t have time to respond to unoriginal screeds. Debate and argue for yourselves, please. You have both consistently ignored what I`ve written, missed the point, continued to lie even after I`ve provided evidence to the contrary and generally blustered in the most self-righteous, patronizing tone imaginable. Yes, Ireland is wonderful. Ignore centuries of conflict within Ireland, the Fenian invasion of Canada, mob violence in the US and Australia, support for Irish terrorists, etc. Frankly, I`d be pretty impressed if all you gave the world was Irish Whisky, W.B. Yeats and the Undertones. But, Ireland isn`t perfect and neither are the Irish. I would also remind you that comparing Ireland and Israel is silly; Israel isn`t a ``white, english speaking nation``. Again, your lack of knowledge betrays you. Although, it`s interesting that for a few years during the 1940`s, both the Irish (IRA), and the Jews were fighting British Imperialism at opposite ends of the earth.

Anyway, I still implore you both to dig deeper. This is a terrific, balanced website that provides detail and historical context. Please check it out: http://www.mideastweb.org/

Thanks for the heads up.
It is always important to dig deeper. Maybe you can suggest some reading material.
I have read the Biographies of Chaim Herzog, Moshe Dayan, Simon Wiesenthal and Golda Meir. Forgive the spelling.
Also Max Dimonts History of the Jewish people, not to mention all the various articles and books on the region I can find.
As for thinking that Israel is completely white and English speaking, well give me some credit.
From Russia to Ethiopia, the Jewish way of life is varied and unique.
As for Ireland being perfect well we are not, but we would like others to learn from our mistakes. Especially the madness of religious war.
As for the IRA and the Hagannah being similar I a...

Thanks for the heads up.
It is always important to dig deeper. Maybe you can suggest some reading material.
I have read the Biographies of Chaim Herzog, Moshe Dayan, Simon Wiesenthal and Golda Meir. Forgive the spelling.
Also Max Dimonts History of the Jewish people, not to mention all the various articles and books on the region I can find.
As for thinking that Israel is completely white and English speaking, well give me some credit.
From Russia to Ethiopia, the Jewish way of life is varied and unique.
As for Ireland being perfect well we are not, but we would like others to learn from our mistakes. Especially the madness of religious war.
As for the IRA and the Hagannah being similar I agree.
As for our difference of opinions I think that you could learn even from the comments you believe to be biased.
If you could open eyes in a heated debate and make people reflect on your point, maybe you should ask why people are so upset with your nation.
And why are they so vehement about it ?
Place yourself in a foreigners shoes looking in, not aware of the daily alerts, or the dangers from without.
Forget your military training and think like a foreign civilian. You might come to see why they think like that, even if you do not agree.

You may enjoy this interview.
Conor Cruise O'Brien: The State of the Zionist State http://www.meforum.org/article/81 Your points are well taken. I appreciate that you have already dug deeper than most, although I was put off by some of the rhetoric that really didn't apply. It's obviously a complex issue. My concern is with people who demonize Israel (or the Arabs for that matter) without appreciating how many players are involved. Demonizing one party to a conflict while practically ignoring the abuse of another is counter-productive, leading to less dialogue and further violence. I prefer the Canadian approach: keep the lines of dialogue open (as much as possible) and always try to find ...

You may enjoy this interview.
Conor Cruise O'Brien: The State of the Zionist State http://www.meforum.org/article/81 Your points are well taken. I appreciate that you have already dug deeper than most, although I was put off by some of the rhetoric that really didn't apply. It's obviously a complex issue. My concern is with people who demonize Israel (or the Arabs for that matter) without appreciating how many players are involved. Demonizing one party to a conflict while practically ignoring the abuse of another is counter-productive, leading to less dialogue and further violence. I prefer the Canadian approach: keep the lines of dialogue open (as much as possible) and always try to find balance. There's no question that Israel has been forced to take unfortunate measures to defend its sovereignty and the lives of its citizens. That these actions have resulted in civilian deaths is also not in question. But, nothing happens in a vacuum - except in the minds of those who see Israeli as solely at fault, ignoring the historical context, and simple cause and effect. The most frustrating aspect of this attitude is the absolute futility of it; Arabs and their supporters, who focus on the 1948 'disaster' miss an essential point: how do we achieve peace now? Anyone who calls for the end of Israel does not want peace: it's that simple. Since it should obvious that Israel will never voluntarily committ suicide, the only other option is a full-scale regional war, or a devastating nuclear attack, which will surely demand an Israeli response. I cannot believe any rational person would choose this scenario over a negotiated settlement. And yet many people do. My heartfelt belief is that the extremists on both sides must be sidelined, while giving support to moderate voices of peace. I've been there many times and can tell you in all sincerity, what both Arabs and Jews want is normality.

U.S.Department of State
Report on Global Anti-Semitism
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
January 5, 2005
Executive Summary
I. Anti-Semitism

Ireland

During the reporting period, the Irish Times newspaper reported three instances of anti-Semitism in the country. One incident included a swastika painted on the Irish Jewish Museum in Dublin, while the other incidents involved vandalism at a Jewish cemetery and synagogue. A 2003 study by the European Commission's European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia described the country as having [i]"relatively little reported in the way of a[b]...

U.S.Department of State
Report on Global Anti-Semitism
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
January 5, 2005
Executive Summary
I. Anti-Semitism

Ireland

During the reporting period, the Irish Times newspaper reported three instances of anti-Semitism in the country. One incident included a swastika painted on the Irish Jewish Museum in Dublin, while the other incidents involved vandalism at a Jewish cemetery and synagogue. A 2003 study by the European Commission's European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia described the country as having "relatively little reported in the way of a problem with anti-Semitism." In fact, the study categorized all the 2003 cases as "abusive behavior" (threatening letters or phone calls), totaling only 16. Recent evidence shows that these acts may be interrelated with the emergence of a racist group calling itself Irish Nationalist, which has expressed anti-British and anti-Israeli views. In spite of these developments, the country has very little evidence of anti-Semitism.

You're several days behind.

Amergin was doing such a good job at refuting your attempt to deflect the argument to Ireland against England. When I see you quoting Conor Cruise O'Brien as a source, they I know for sure that you have lost the argument. O'Brien and the bottom of the barrel have much in common. Does the notion "My enemy's enemy, is my friend" have any resonance with you? Please don't confuse Ireland fight for freedom in OUR OWN LAND with the Jews 'acquiring' a state in the Middle East!

So firstly Amergin was doing a great job of refuting the many attacks you made, none relative to the issue. I had spoken to you on two previous occasions about your verbal diarrhoea ...

You're several days behind.

Amergin was doing such a good job at refuting your attempt to deflect the argument to Ireland against England. When I see you quoting Conor Cruise O'Brien as a source, they I know for sure that you have lost the argument. O'Brien and the bottom of the barrel have much in common. Does the notion "My enemy's enemy, is my friend" have any resonance with you? Please don't confuse Ireland fight for freedom in OUR OWN LAND with the Jews 'acquiring' a state in the Middle East!

So firstly Amergin was doing a great job of refuting the many attacks you made, none relative to the issue. I had spoken to you on two previous occasions about your verbal diarrhoea tendencies. Do you have some notion that if you write reams of puff that it substitutes for argument.

You constantly complain that we don't read you argument, confusing that with agreeing with you. Your saying so doesn't make it so.

You have persistently being personal only short of insulting. Never once have I risen to the bait. This brings me back again to "you're several days behind" remark.

It is not in my nature to kick a man when he is down! Amergin had you on the ropes, so I observed instead. It's not the Irish style to gang up. Tag is fine, but its getting too easy.

Did you study
Shock report on Anti-Semitism by U.S. Dept of State
or
Great Irish Famine. "Stabalising at half the level prior to the famine"
or
Israel's Conscientious Objectors: The Categorical Imperative
or in the 'best until last' tradition
USS Liberty Officer survivor: Attack deliberate

But you cannot compare emigration to systematic murder. The Jewish communities (and others) of Eastern Europe would have been grateful for that option.

Dead is dead. Quick and easy or long and hard, is this to turn into a debate now as to the exact make-up of a major tragedy? Can you not concede that the Jewish experience is not unique? Is the victim tag so important to you? Is the begging bowl to be your main image now?

We Irish can speak on this topic because we were that Jew! We too thought that the world owed us a living. In two decades or so that was changed. One man of vision but not well appreciated was very much responsible for that change in attitude. That and EU mon...

But you cannot compare emigration to systematic murder. The Jewish communities (and others) of Eastern Europe would have been grateful for that option.

Dead is dead. Quick and easy or long and hard, is this to turn into a debate now as to the exact make-up of a major tragedy? Can you not concede that the Jewish experience is not unique? Is the victim tag so important to you? Is the begging bowl to be your main image now?

We Irish can speak on this topic because we were that Jew! We too thought that the world owed us a living. In two decades or so that was changed. One man of vision but not well appreciated was very much responsible for that change in attitude. That and EU money - German in particular - to prime the pump. The amount of money that the American tax payer has forked out to Israel should have primed the pumps of half a dozen Middle East countries to the benefit of all including Israel and America.

There are no men of vision or any others with any other worth while leadership qualities right now in Israel. How else could you be stuck with Olmert? Nothing better!. Crap! Please argue this with me.

Remember traditional Irish families often 10-20 offspring and yet our population continued to decline. All those that left became totally loyal to their new country. No idea of 'someday in Jerusalem' was encouraged. Our well educated, brightest and best left, forever. Maybe they returned as tourists. If they should wish to become Irish citizen they get no special concession like in Israel. I understand a Jew can claim immediate citizenship whereas a native Arab can not at all. Some democracy! Some justice.

Is there any point in my continuing to request Israel to join the community of real free and fair societies. No excuses. No begging bowl. Goodwill and real peace only.

(Tilt. Be careful of the banana skins that I leave out for you.)

Irish nationality law provides for Irish citizenship to be acquired on the basis of at least one Irish grandparent. If a person outside of Ireland who is entitled to claim Irish citizenship elects not to, that person may nonetheless pass that right on to her or his own children, even if the basis for the entitlement being passed on is a single Irish grandparent. To do so, that person must register her or his birth in Ireland's Foreign Births Register.

Separately from this right, the Irish minister charged with immigration may dispense with conditions of naturalisation to grant citizenship to an applicant who "is of Irish descent or Irish associations", under article 15 of the Irish Na[b]...

Irish nationality law provides for Irish citizenship to be acquired on the basis of at least one Irish grandparent. If a person outside of Ireland who is entitled to claim Irish citizenship elects not to, that person may nonetheless pass that right on to her or his own children, even if the basis for the entitlement being passed on is a single Irish grandparent. To do so, that person must register her or his birth in Ireland's Foreign Births Register.

Separately from this right, the Irish minister charged with immigration may dispense with conditions of naturalisation to grant citizenship to an applicant who "is of Irish descent or Irish associations", under article 15 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1986.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return#Ireland

Here's a classic example of how you ignore what's written and continue to change the subject (in case you've forgotten, this clipmark is about moderate Arabs recognizing an inablity to self-criticise):


You: Can you not concede that the Jewish experience is not unique? Is the victim tag so important to you? Is the begging bowl to be your main image now?

Me: Regardless, it was devastating and the British bear responsibility for a crime against humanity. Millions of people left Ireland, broken and destitute. Me: As is each and every other genocide. Each is unique to its people, time and place. That doesn't mean one groups has suffered more than any other. Me: ...

Here's a classic example of how you ignore what's written and continue to change the subject (in case you've forgotten, this clipmark is about moderate Arabs recognizing an inablity to self-criticise):


You: Can you not concede that the Jewish experience is not unique? Is the victim tag so important to you? Is the begging bowl to be your main image now?

Me: Regardless, it was devastating and the British bear responsibility for a crime against humanity. Millions of people left Ireland, broken and destitute. Me: As is each and every other genocide. Each is unique to its people, time and place. That doesn't mean one groups has suffered more than any other. Me: Holocaust Museums regularly feature exhibits on the murder of Christians, Roma, Gays and Lesbians and others. PREVENTION of future genocides is a major function of Holocaust, indeed Jewish education.

Y'see, this is why this discussion is going to end. Bullying and obfuscation may work on other people but I'm not intimidated. I understand how fascists work.

@Amergin

The fact of the matter is that while second generation Jews are pursuing damages from the German government for the psychological trauma of the Holocaust, the Lebanese,Palestinian and any other neighbouring nation that poses a threat is crushed ruthlessly underfoot. Who is wearing the jackboot now?

asked, never answered! and..

This is the story of Israel - a stolen land taken from the Palestinians. The Zionist movement was founded on the principle that the Jews deserved a land; a land that they could call their State; their home but they would only be able to identify themselves as a wholly Jewish state at the expense of uprooting an existent civilization, the i...

read more»

@Amergin

The fact of the matter is that while second generation Jews are pursuing damages from the German government for the psychological trauma of the Holocaust, the Lebanese,Palestinian and any other neighbouring nation that poses a threat is crushed ruthlessly underfoot. Who is wearing the jackboot now?

asked, never answered! and..

This is the story of Israel - a stolen land taken from the Palestinians. The Zionist movement was founded on the principle that the Jews deserved a land; a land that they could call their State; their home but they would only be able to identify themselves as a wholly Jewish state at the expense of uprooting an existent civilization, the indigenous Arab population.

The Jewish claim to Palestine is based on the existence of a kingdom that reigned for only 414 years...

asked, never answered....

Your lengthy quote from Wikipedia does not appear to have any point other than to save me having to look it up my self. Again I say "do you have some notion that if you write reams of puff that it substitutes for argument." Convention is that you quote your source and I look it up. Understand? Column inches alone is pointless! An ability to copy others work is not in itself an argument!

He is a master of the art of lying through misdirection. His book is a perfect example of this talent. Without directly lying, he arranges facts (and omits others) in such a way as to lead a reader to a completely false conclusion. If challenged, he can reply that he didn't really lie, the error of fact only exists in the reader's mind.

Sound familiar? I called it verbal gymnastics, or I do now after experiencing your inability to be focused clearly on the issue.

Of course we know that your lenghty dissertation on Irish citizen rules was only to deflect the issue away from the extraordinary [b]Israeli Citizenship Laws[

Actually AMERGIN brought up Ireland. I responded.

Israel's Citizenship laws are based on Germany's. Many countries offer right of return to ethno-cultural nationals. My quote about Ireland's naturalization laws was certainly not a deflection; it was a response to your preposterous claim that Ireland didn't give special privileges like Israel. You apparently know as little about Ireland as you do Israel and Jews. There's actually nothing unique about Israel's law of return. And anyone can apply for citizenship in Israel regardless of race, religion or ethnicity, unlike many Arab countries which ban Jews from entering.

Very big of you. I note you left out those that by far lost most...

Actually AMERGIN brought up Ireland. I responded.

Israel's Citizenship laws are based on Germany's. Many countries offer right of return to ethno-cultural nationals. My quote about Ireland's naturalization laws was certainly not a deflection; it was a response to your preposterous claim that Ireland didn't give special privileges like Israel. You apparently know as little about Ireland as you do Israel and Jews. There's actually nothing unique about Israel's law of return. And anyone can apply for citizenship in Israel regardless of race, religion or ethnicity, unlike many Arab countries which ban Jews from entering.

Very big of you. I note you left out those that by far lost most in
WW2! I'm sure it was not deliberate, or was it? Or are they covered by
'others'? Really???

I actully don't understand this comment. Are you talking about Russians? I think they lost the most civilians but I'm not sure without checking. Seriously, dude, you're getting kinda weird. I hope that frothing at your mouth is from a Guinness. Yes, that was a personal comment. I don't like you. But, I won't hold it against other Irish, who are actually charming and friendly.

I may respond to a few other comments tomorrow if I have time but as I've said before, I don't see any reason. You dismiss what you don't like with childish comments about verbal diarrhea or bring up previous comments to avoid addressing what's currently being addressed. Here's two that you've ignored: Are Irish Jews 'Irish'? Are Irish citizenship laws at all different from Israel's if they both give special privilages to descendants of nationals? I anxioulsy await your next deflection.

The fact of the matter is that while second generation Jews are pursuing damages from the German government for the psychological trauma of the Holocaust, the Lebanese,Palestinian and any other neighbouring nation that poses a threat is crushed ruthlessly underfoot. Who is wearing the jackboot now?
asked, never answered! and..

I assumed this was rhetorical. I'm also wondering why you're speaking for Amergin. Are you the same person using two ID's? Here's a response in any event. I can't speak for Holocaust survivors or their children. Most of my family came to Canada around 115 years ago and have served this nation's government, armed forces and civil institutions. My relati...

The fact of the matter is that while second generation Jews are pursuing damages from the German government for the psychological trauma of the Holocaust, the Lebanese,Palestinian and any other neighbouring nation that poses a threat is crushed ruthlessly underfoot. Who is wearing the jackboot now?
asked, never answered! and..

I assumed this was rhetorical. I'm also wondering why you're speaking for Amergin. Are you the same person using two ID's? Here's a response in any event. I can't speak for Holocaust survivors or their children. Most of my family came to Canada around 115 years ago and have served this nation's government, armed forces and civil institutions. My relatives include MP's, a Senator, many war heroes and recipients of other medals for service to the country. My grandmother's relatives remained in Poland and almost all perished. Those who made it here before the war built up successful businesses and never complained for a moment. Not all were so lucky. I wasn't aware of the 'second-generation' story, but my gut feeling is that this is a political move to embarass the Israeli government into providing better assistance to Holocaust survivors and their children. I expect that's why Germany is being so quiet on the subject. It's interesting, though. I've heard similar stories about the children of Vietnam War vets. I can speak on this subject but would rather not for personal reasons. I will say that I've seen this 2nd-generation effect and can relate.

I also don't have much to say on the other comment which is hyperbole, not really supported by facts. Lebanon, for example, wasn't 'crushed.' It was barely touched. Israel, with the most powerful armed forces in the region, could have destroyed Lebanon's major cities and caused a death toll in the hundreds of thousands. I don't want to minimize Lebanon's suffering here. Every death is a tragedy. And Nesrallah should be tried for war crimes for kidnapping Israeli citizens and launching rockets at civilians, which precipitated Israel's response (which was admittedly heavy-handed at times). The use of the term 'jackboot' was deliberately inflamatory, and this comparison is untenable, unless you...

I also don't have much to say on the other comment which is hyperbole, not really supported by facts. Lebanon, for example, wasn't 'crushed.' It was barely touched. Israel, with the most powerful armed forces in the region, could have destroyed Lebanon's major cities and caused a death toll in the hundreds of thousands. I don't want to minimize Lebanon's suffering here. Every death is a tragedy. And Nesrallah should be tried for war crimes for kidnapping Israeli citizens and launching rockets at civilians, which precipitated Israel's response (which was admittedly heavy-handed at times). The use of the term 'jackboot' was deliberately inflamatory, and this comparison is untenable, unless you happen to know of an Israeli death camp I'm unaware of. Considering the explosive birthrate in the Arab world (the Palestinian population alone has increased at least four-fold since 1948), I can't believe any rational, sane person believes Israel is trying to systematically exterminate Arabs, as the Nazis did to Jews. It's a comparison meant to hurt and insult Jews at a deeply personal level. But, factually speaking, it's meaningless.

This is the story of Israel - a stolen land taken from the Palestinians. The Zionist movement was founded on the principle that the Jews deserved a land; a land that they could call their State; their home but they would only be able to identify themselves as a wholly Jewish state at the expense of uprooting an existent civilization, the indigenous Arab population.
The Jewish claim to Palestine is based on the existence of a kingdom that reigned for only 414 years... asked, never answered....

I actually responded to this near the top of the page. Do you actually need a response for each rhetorical point? Fine.

Yes, the Jewish nation deserved a state; the r...

This is the story of Israel - a stolen land taken from the Palestinians. The Zionist movement was founded on the principle that the Jews deserved a land; a land that they could call their State; their home but they would only be able to identify themselves as a wholly Jewish state at the expense of uprooting an existent civilization, the indigenous Arab population.
The Jewish claim to Palestine is based on the existence of a kingdom that reigned for only 414 years... asked, never answered....

I actually responded to this near the top of the page. Do you actually need a response for each rhetorical point? Fine.

Yes, the Jewish nation deserved a state; the right of self-determination is inherant for all people. The Zionists never demanded 'a wholly Jewish state.' If you believe this, you haven't done your homework (but we both know this). Even Jabotinsky, arguably the most right-wing Zionist spokesman wrote, "the expulsion of the Arabs from Palestine is absolutely impossible in any form. There will always be two nations in Palestine – which is good enough for me, provided the Jews become the majority...Obviously, Zionists today cannot dream of expelling or suppressing the Arabs, or even of setting up a Jewish state. Clearly, in this period they are interested in only one thing – that the Arabs not interfere with Jewish immigration."

The Arabs weren't the indigineous people of Palestine, having conquered the area in the 7th century, a fact confirmed a few weeks ago by Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas. When describing desecrations by Hamas in Gaza, Abbas said, "even the churches were not spared. One of the oldest churches in Palestine, which stood long before our arrival [in the region], was looted and set on fire." If the Christians were there before the Palestinians, it goes without saying, so were the Jews.

Arab control of Palestine ended in 1071, when it came under the control of Seljuk Turks. That was the end of an Arab empire in the Middle East. They certainly weren't a cohesive civilization, but more...

The Arabs weren't the indigineous people of Palestine, having conquered the area in the 7th century, a fact confirmed a few weeks ago by Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas. When describing desecrations by Hamas in Gaza, Abbas said, "even the churches were not spared. One of the oldest churches in Palestine, which stood long before our arrival [in the region], was looted and set on fire." If the Christians were there before the Palestinians, it goes without saying, so were the Jews.

Arab control of Palestine ended in 1071, when it came under the control of Seljuk Turks. That was the end of an Arab empire in the Middle East. They certainly weren't a cohesive civilization, but more of an empire, like the British Empire which colonized and occupied countries around the world. The Arabs subjegated the Assyrians, Chaldeans, Kurds, Abbyssinians and many others. "For several centuries after its advent, Islam was an alibi for Arab imperialism. And it was an imperialism of a type which the world had not known so far. The Arabs not only imposed their ruthless rule and totalitarian creed on the countries they conquered; they also populated these countries with a prolific progeny which they procreated on native women. Every Arab worth his race 'married' scores, sometimes hundreds of these helpless women after their menfolk had all been killed...in a matter of a hundred years, Iraq, Palestine, Syria, Egypt and North Africa which had been non-Arab countries for countless ages became Arabic-speaking countries. .. (from Islam: The Arab National Movement, by Anwar Shaikh)

The Jewish claim to Palestine is based on the existence of a kingdom that reigned for only 414 years...

Which is 414 years longer than any Palestinian kingdom.

But, it's a moot point. The Jewish claim isn't based solely on this ancient kingdom, although there's no question, the historical and archaeological record confirms the Jewish nation's birth in this place. Israel's birthright is validated by the attachment to 'the land,' as expressed in Jewish law and literature; but more importantly, by uninterrupted Jewish settlement for 3,000 years. The fact that the Arabs became a majority is irrelevant. They did so through force and persecution.
...

The Jewish claim to Palestine is based on the existence of a kingdom that reigned for only 414 years...

Which is 414 years longer than any Palestinian kingdom.

But, it's a moot point. The Jewish claim isn't based solely on this ancient kingdom, although there's no question, the historical and archaeological record confirms the Jewish nation's birth in this place. Israel's birthright is validated by the attachment to 'the land,' as expressed in Jewish law and literature; but more importantly, by uninterrupted Jewish settlement for 3,000 years. The fact that the Arabs became a majority is irrelevant. They did so through force and persecution.

And frankly, this idea that the Jews should not have claimed their right to self-determination because the extant Arab majority might be upset (and they weren't nearly as upset as the Turkish and Arab Land Barons who recognized an end of the status quo) is actually offensive. It's like saying Black Americans shouldn't have tried sitting at the front of the bus or entering Southern Universities because it will upset the White Majority.

Seriously, dude, you're getting kinda weird. I hope that frothing at your mouth is from a Guinness. Yes, that was a personal comment. I don't like you. But, I won't hold it against other Irish, who are actually charming and friendly.

"I don't like you". Or you don't like my arguments? I'll start getting worried about my contributions when you report that that you've started to like me. Given the contradictions in your posts, then I may not have long to wait. Ha ha. You're my favourite case. You keep coming back for more. Where you aware of your masochistic tendencies?

I actully don't understand this comment. Are...

read more»

Seriously, dude, you're getting kinda weird. I hope that frothing at your mouth is from a Guinness. Yes, that was a personal comment. I don't like you. But, I won't hold it against other Irish, who are actually charming and friendly.

"I don't like you". Or you don't like my arguments? I'll start getting worried about my contributions when you report that that you've started to like me. Given the contradictions in your posts, then I may not have long to wait. Ha ha. You're my favourite case. You keep coming back for more. Where you aware of your masochistic tendencies?

I actully don't understand this comment. Are you talking about Russians? I think they lost the most civilians but I'm not sure without checking.

Now which word did you not understand, Morey?

The total estimated human loss of life caused by World War II, irrespective of political alignment, was roughly 72 million people. The civilian toll was around 47 million, including about 20 million due to war related famine and disease.

Historians in post communist Poland now estimate losses of ethnic Poles and Jews at 4.9 million.

Understand? Did you think that WW2 was ALL about you?

I'm also wondering why you're speaking for Amergin. Are you the same person using two ID's?

Paranoid too.

I assumed this was rhetorical.my gut feeling is that this is a political move to embarrass the Israeli government into providing better assistance to Holocaust survivors and their children. I expect that's why Germany is being so quiet on the subject.

You must have some bases to come to such an extraordinary conclusion. The previous history of the HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY would not support such a notion. The begging bowl is just being passed on to the next generation.

And Nesrallah should be tried for war crimes for kidnapping Israeli citizens...

read more»

I'm also wondering why you're speaking for Amergin. Are you the same person using two ID's?

Paranoid too.

I assumed this was rhetorical.my gut feeling is that this is a political move to embarrass the Israeli government into providing better assistance to Holocaust survivors and their children. I expect that's why Germany is being so quiet on the subject.

You must have some bases to come to such an extraordinary conclusion. The previous history of the HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY would not support such a notion. The begging bowl is just being passed on to the next generation.

And Nesrallah should be tried for war crimes for kidnapping Israeli citizens and launching rockets at civilians, which precipitated Israel's response (which was admittedly heavy-handed at times).

You're joking! Why should he be picked on for war crimes. He's not responsible for the TOTALLY DISPROPORTIONATE RESPONSE of the Zionist state and the wholesale slaughter of fleeing Lebanon women and children. Or the continuing state sanctioned assassinations. And on and on and on. A large prison would not hold the Israel war criminals.

I didn't first use the 'jackboot' term, but if the cap fits then wear it. The original elimination was over a short time. Yours has been longer. Your purpose is to clear Palestinians from the land of their father by any foul means since the inception of that mongrel state. Just so you can maintain a false artificial majority. How would the numbers stack up when displaced Palestinians are included. Which jackboot wearer's numbers are higher then?! If this is new to you then watch for clips on the recent Jerusalem celebrations when the only topic seemed to be population numbers. Yes do ...

Considering the explosive birthrate in the Arab world (the Palestinian population alone has increased at least four-fold since 1948).

So no matter how many 'Jews' that you im

Hi guys;
Are we losing track of the argument here ? More Debate less Mudslinging Lads. P.S. Amergin is an independent entity.

Yes, of course. Thanks for the clarification. RightHand, who is a little paranoid himself, accused me of this on another clip, and it occured to me that he might use that trick. His response was predictable and it answered the question.

Listen, I'd love to keep this more polite. I actually have a fascinating, and extremely civil discussion, going elsewhere with a Lebanese Muslim. We don't disagree on facts, just interpretations. But, there's no problem with that. Hell, I can't tell you exactly what's going on in the apartment next to mine l...

Hi guys;
Are we losing track of the argument here ? More Debate less Mudslinging Lads. P.S. Amergin is an independent entity.

Yes, of course. Thanks for the clarification. RightHand, who is a little paranoid himself, accused me of this on another clip, and it occured to me that he might use that trick. His response was predictable and it answered the question.

Listen, I'd love to keep this more polite. I actually have a fascinating, and extremely civil discussion, going elsewhere with a Lebanese Muslim. We don't disagree on facts, just interpretations. But, there's no problem with that. Hell, I can't tell you exactly what's going on in the apartment next to mine let alone describe an event that happened 100 years ago with complete faith that I'm 100% correct. The best we can do look at all the available material and make educated guesses. My issue with ranters with RightHand is that he will only look at half the information, that which agrees with his biased analysis. He ignores evidence to the contrary and changes the subject when he's cornered. Frankly, I enjoy a good debate, and I'm more than happy to continue one with you because you have been friendly and open to the discussion (although you began with a few, IMHO, untenable rhetorical accusations). But, whatever. To tell you the truth, I'd rather talk about beer or really important issues, like what ever happened to Johnny Fingers? But this is fun, too.

Hey, who wants the last word here?

"I don't like you". Or you don't like my arguments

I don't like thugs. Some of your argument have been valid, but I don't like your style.

As for "Holocaust Industry" I recall you ignored my Norman Finkelstein reference awhile back. The funny thing, Norm wasn't completely wrong. Some people have made a lot of money from the Holocaust, such as the Swiss. Not Spielberg, despite what some people think; he gave all the profits from Schindler's List away. And as for Hollywood, Jewish producers wouldn't touch the subject for decades after the war. Ironically, Finkelstein himself has made good money off the book and the lecture circuit. Pretty sweet for a hackademic fraud.

...

"I don't like you". Or you don't like my arguments

I don't like thugs. Some of your argument have been valid, but I don't like your style.

As for "Holocaust Industry" I recall you ignored my Norman Finkelstein reference awhile back. The funny thing, Norm wasn't completely wrong. Some people have made a lot of money from the Holocaust, such as the Swiss. Not Spielberg, despite what some people think; he gave all the profits from Schindler's List away. And as for Hollywood, Jewish producers wouldn't touch the subject for decades after the war. Ironically, Finkelstein himself has made good money off the book and the lecture circuit. Pretty sweet for a hackademic fraud.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/10/depaul_universitys_moment_of_t.html


Nesrallah is guilty of War Crimes. Under humanitarian law the sole fact that civilians suffer, or even die, during an attack, does not make this attack unlawful if the attack was directed at the military objective ...If it happens nevertheless, there is no war crime, and no violation of humanitarian law.

Moreover, hiding weapons and combatants amongst a civilian population is not just an violation of international law, it is a War Crime: The Fourth Geneva Convention directly assigns blame to terrorist groups that hide among civilian populations, in one sentence: This sentence makes up the entirety of Part 3, Article 1, Section 28.

It reads: "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."

"Critics of Israel note that Israel used cluster bombs in greater amounts during the closing days of the war, and suggested that this constitutes a war crime. There are certain weapons such as some types of poison gas that are always illegal due to specific treaties. Cluster bombs are not among these weapons."

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=378&PID=0&IID

Your purpose is to clear Palestinians from the land of their father by any foul means since the inception of that mongrel state. Just so you can maintain a false artificial majority. How would the numbers stack up when displaced Palestinians are included.

In 1948, israel offered to re-admit 100,000 Arabs. The offer was refused. Israel upped the amount to around 250,000 but the Arabs again refused to negotiate (actually this time they were correct to do so; Israel's deal involved taking over Gaza)

But, thousands of Palestinians have moved into Israel proper since then through the Family reunification program. Unfortunately, the program was all but frozen during the ...

Your purpose is to clear Palestinians from the land of their father by any foul means since the inception of that mongrel state. Just so you can maintain a false artificial majority. How would the numbers stack up when displaced Palestinians are included.

In 1948, israel offered to re-admit 100,000 Arabs. The offer was refused. Israel upped the amount to around 250,000 but the Arabs again refused to negotiate (actually this time they were correct to do so; Israel's deal involved taking over Gaza)

But, thousands of Palestinians have moved into Israel proper since then through the Family reunification program. Unfortunately, the program was all but frozen during the intifadah. There are a number of groups within Israel working to get it reinstated.

As for the other links, we don't disagree entirely here. This is a major internal debate within Israel, a democratic state that is wrestling with its ability to survive as a Jewish nation. The very fact that the issue is being discussed in one the county's major newspapers says much about Israel's democractic institutions. I happen to agree with Ha'aretz, but you never even asked...you just assumed you knew where I stood on the issue.

It's obviously in Israel's best interests to make the two-state solution happen sooner rather than later. Which is why groups like Hamas are doing their best to keep the conflict going. But, the demographic challenge is definitely there. You're quite right. Israel's Jews want a reasonble solution that maintains a Jewish majority because, frankly, the Middle East doesn't need another fascist Arab theocracy, where Jews will again be reduced to living as a persecuted minority. There are at least - at last count - 22 Arab states, occupying 99.5 percent of the region. Why is one Jewish state on .5% of the land such a problem?

Masochistic? Me? Yeah, probably, but believe it or not, you've forced me to look up a few things, and I enjoy that. Have you

Last week, in a series of three decisions that are separate but connected through a stench of racism and discrimination, Israel entered the dismal pantheon of non-democratic states. This past Wednesday, Israel decided to be like apartheid-era South Africa, and some will say even worse countries that no longer exist.

In short, equality is the basic tenet of a liberal western democracy and without it a country is not democratic in practice although possibly democratic by law.

the Knesset decided to "extend" the legislation known as the Tal Law – which initially was meant to be valid for five transitory years only, in order to examine the possibility of integrating the strictly Orthodox into ...

Last week, in a series of three decisions that are separate but connected through a stench of racism and discrimination, Israel entered the dismal pantheon of non-democratic states. This past Wednesday, Israel decided to be like apartheid-era South Africa, and some will say even worse countries that no longer exist.

In short, equality is the basic tenet of a liberal western democracy and without it a country is not democratic in practice although possibly democratic by law.

the Knesset decided to "extend" the legislation known as the Tal Law – which initially was meant to be valid for five transitory years only, in order to examine the possibility of integrating the strictly Orthodox into the IDF.

This was a blatantly anti-democratic arrangement and even those who drafted it reemphasized that it was merely a temporary agreement for five years only, yet around here the temporary becomes permanent, particularly when we're talking about discrimination and racism.

The second apartheid decision has to do with the apparent "good news" that those who are unable to wed as a result of religious limitations would be able to marry each other now. What a disgusting expression that is. In a democratic country, a couple is allowed to marry however it wishes and the State is not at all allowed to interfere in this choice. It must allow any man to marry the woman he chooses

In Israel the situation is different. The division is based on religions and sects, and a member of one religion is not allowed to marry someone of a different religion. This has led to the emergence of a situation whereby an Israeli whose mother isn't Jewish, therefore making him non-Jewish according to Jewish law, was unable to marry in Israel at all.

Yet instead of allowing such person or any other person to marry as they wish, the government decided to establish a new sect, the 'tainted sect'!!!

The third racist decision was the one that banned Arab citizens of Israel from purchasing national land. Well, not all land, but only a part of it - Jewish National Fund land.

Imagine the French government banning Jews from purchasing land in Paris and its vicinity. Imagine that the US would ban Jews from purchasing land in New England, because that's the cradle of American culture. What would we say then?

Yet when it comes to Arabs we keep silent, because we have been accustomed to think that in Israel there are citizens of various ranks and not everyone is entitled to the same rights.

The highlight of this absurd situation is that racist discourse takes place in the Israeli Knesset, ye...

The third racist decision was the one that banned Arab citizens of Israel from purchasing national land. Well, not all land, but only a part of it - Jewish National Fund land.

Imagine the French government banning Jews from purchasing land in Paris and its vicinity. Imagine that the US would ban Jews from purchasing land in New England, because that's the cradle of American culture. What would we say then?

Yet when it comes to Arabs we keep silent, because we have been accustomed to think that in Israel there are citizens of various ranks and not everyone is entitled to the same rights.

The highlight of this absurd situation is that racist discourse takes place in the Israeli Knesset, yet nobody sees their own racism. Arab Knesset members, who justifiably protested the terrible discrimination against them, voted in favor of the Tal Law, which allows discrimination among Jews.

Instead of Arab Knesset members backing the enlistment of Arab Israelis to the army and playing an appropriate role when it comes to duties and rights, they preserve the racism. And so, all the anti-Zionist forces joined together – the Arabs, strictly Orthodox and settlers – to bring Israel to a place of chaos and darkness, blatant racism and screaming discrimination. All of them joined forces in order to bring us to a state of apartheid.

The collapse of the Zionist enterprise and of the State of Israel, would certainly emphasize the above-mentioned disastrous decisions.

One of the clearest rules that distinguishes a democratic state from a non-democratic state is the principle of equality when it comes to rights and obligations. In a democratic country, all citizens regardless of race, religious, gender or origin are entitled to equality when it comes to national assets, services and resources, and all citizens regardless of race, religion, gender or origin are equally obligated by national duties.

...more...???....yield???

It's obviously in Israel's best interests to make the two-state solution happen sooner rather than later. Which is why groups like Hamas are doing their best to keep the conflict going. But, the demographic challenge is definitely there.

So you believe the Israeli-US line on Hamas? You believe that Hamas started the recent spat with Fatah? If you really believe then there is no hope for you. I know it is the official party line and you cannot be even seen to vary from that. There were three level of subterfuge that I know of and maybe there are more. You are only on level one however, the one that is repeated like a mantra. Think man, think for yourself. Yes be guided by Jerusa...

It's obviously in Israel's best interests to make the two-state solution happen sooner rather than later. Which is why groups like Hamas are doing their best to keep the conflict going. But, the demographic challenge is definitely there.

So you believe the Israeli-US line on Hamas? You believe that Hamas started the recent spat with Fatah? If you really believe then there is no hope for you. I know it is the official party line and you cannot be even seen to vary from that. There were three level of subterfuge that I know of and maybe there are more. You are only on level one however, the one that is repeated like a mantra. Think man, think for yourself. Yes be guided by Jerusalem but don't be lead by the nose.

Think why the democratically elect Hamas is preferred to the corrupt Fatah. Are you so blinkered that you cannot see. Can you not see the same repetition of American foreign policy for decades? I was mistaken in giving you more credit as a thinking person than was reasonable. In an another posting tonight, I wrote about the lack of quality and information in American newspapers, so if you have being relying on them, then it is understandable that you accept the party line on Hamas.

For now I will give you one reference to the Jerusalem Post. The MOST IMPORTANT item is the DATE MAY_FIRST_2007. Even the stooge Abbas knew there was trouble afoot.


Olmert would order a massive military operation in the Gaza Strip to divert attention from the harsh findings of the Winograd Report on last summer's war in Lebanon. "Olmert is facing a serious crisis and this could be his way to salvage himself."

Hamas leaders in the Gaza Strip said they did not rule out the possibility that Israel would try to compensate for its "defeat" in Lebanon by "stepping up its military aggression" against the Palestinians.

You may not have read it due to the misle

I was going to - in someone's words - move on, but decided to add one (maybe two depending on how much puff I've got in me) last post.


There's an old saying: you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Perhaps it's Irish.

Believe it or not, you're preaching to the choir. My dismissive attitude toward you has always been because of your bombastic rhetoric. I'm going to call you on the BS, but if you go back and really read what I wrote, you'll find I'm also very critical of Israel. You assume, in every clip of yours I've looked at, that supporters of Zionism, Jewish or not, give Israel a carte blanche. This simply isn't the case. The debate within Israel, and w...

I was going to - in someone's words - move on, but decided to add one (maybe two depending on how much puff I've got in me) last post.


There's an old saying: you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Perhaps it's Irish.

Believe it or not, you're preaching to the choir. My dismissive attitude toward you has always been because of your bombastic rhetoric. I'm going to call you on the BS, but if you go back and really read what I wrote, you'll find I'm also very critical of Israel. You assume, in every clip of yours I've looked at, that supporters of Zionism, Jewish or not, give Israel a carte blanche. This simply isn't the case. The debate within Israel, and within the Jewish community, over Israel's ability to continue as a democractic AND Jewish state is far more active than anywhere else. I happen to read Ha'aretz (and the Lebanon Star and Jordan Times, and avoid biased American news like the plague) so I'm very aware of the issues in the region. Most Jewish organizations are now lambasting Israel over several recent Knesset decisions that violate democractic standards. Do you think you're telling us something we don't know?

Anti-Zionists shouting about democracy to people already engaged in the democractic process is more than a waste of breathe, it's condescending. Likewise, Nazi references, like the jackboot comment, simply put supporters of Israel on edge becuase we recognize these hurtful, inflammatory comments for what they are; pure and simple insults. In other words, it's a counter-productive strategy.

Israel is a highly imperfect state. But, Jews have been out of the state-building business for 2,500 years. There's also been a shortage of visionary leaders (again, you think just because I support Jewish nationalism that I approve of Ehud Olmert??);

I'm of the belief that there is no problem that cannot be solved with a creative solution. The land issue is a good example. JNF lands were purchased with private money, but are administered by the State. However, State lands, which transferred from the British to Israel, are a different story. They should be held in trust, but how these lands are used is a different story. I'd like to see a system devised that permits Arabs to return t...

Israel is a highly imperfect state. But, Jews have been out of the state-building business for 2,500 years. There's also been a shortage of visionary leaders (again, you think just because I support Jewish nationalism that I approve of Ehud Olmert??);

I'm of the belief that there is no problem that cannot be solved with a creative solution. The land issue is a good example. JNF lands were purchased with private money, but are administered by the State. However, State lands, which transferred from the British to Israel, are a different story. They should be held in trust, but how these lands are used is a different story. I'd like to see a system devised that permits Arabs to return to these lands to farm them, as they did before. In many cases, the farmers were long-term tenants of Turkish and Syrian owners. There is no harm in Arabs continuing to rent these lands, and if it employs Arab workers, more the better. There are creative solutions to be found.

I hope you will consider what I've said. These are complex issues; Israel's story requires an understanding of multiple narratives and deep, cultural differences. You often defer to a simple black or white analysis (your simplistic comments about Hamas, for example, assuming that if I don't agree with one position- yours - I must be endorsing American regional hegemony).

Believe it or not, there is a middle ground that says that Israel can exist, but must do a better job.

Time and again, Israel has been forced to rely on American support, which has necessitated following an American program (I think you would call this a deal with the devil) because other so-called friends were nowhere to be found in the crunch. During the Six-Day War, for example, France reneged on an arms deals it had with Israel, forcing Prime Minister Eshkol to go crawling to Lyndon Johnson for military support. He gave that support, and the US has pulled Israel's strings ever since. Had France remained loyal to Israel, there would likely now be deals between Israel...

Believe it or not, there is a middle ground that says that Israel can exist, but must do a better job.

Time and again, Israel has been forced to rely on American support, which has necessitated following an American program (I think you would call this a deal with the devil) because other so-called friends were nowhere to be found in the crunch. During the Six-Day War, for example, France reneged on an arms deals it had with Israel, forcing Prime Minister Eshkol to go crawling to Lyndon Johnson for military support. He gave that support, and the US has pulled Israel's strings ever since. Had France remained loyal to Israel, there would likely now be deals between Israel and the European Union, and not American weapons builders; there would be European influence in the Knesset, not American; and there would be peace negotiations led by Europeans, and not Condoleezza Rice!


Israel has often acted defensively out of paranoia because, frankly, she has been abandoned by the very countries who might have made a difference. Likewise, anti-Zionists who claim they're trying to help do more harm than good by pushing moderates out of the discussion. Most of my Israeli friends were Peace Now members before the intifadah. They now vociferously denounce every concession by the Palestinians as a ruse. Arafat, though the endorsement of violence, cut off support from the moderate, educated Israelis who were making a difference. Likewise, British efforts to boycott Israeli institutions will backfire; isolating Israel's Leftist academia will simply push Israeli universities closer to the Americans.

Find a middle ground that opens up dialogue and invites creative discussion. That's where the solution will be found. Not in the bile and spit of hurtful denunciations. That is, if you care about a peaceful solution. Ok, old son. That's it for me. I take back what I said about not liking you. I just don't like your style. But, in all sincerity, I wish you s

I think I promised some links. This is by no means a comprehensive list. I just want to pass along a few good resources to anyone who cares.


Comrades and Enemies: Arab and Jewish Workers in Palestine, Zachary Lockman, 1906-1948. Berkeley: University of California Press, c1996. http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft6b69p0hf/ That's Funny You Don't Look Anti-Semitic An Anti-racist Analysis of Left Anti-semitism by Steve Cohen http://www.engageonline.org.uk/ressources/funny/contents.html Hydropolitics along the Jordan River, Scarce Water and its Impact on the Arab-Israeli Conflict http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80859e/80859E00.htm#Contents Zionism--Alive and Triumphant by Chaim Weizman...

I think I promised some links. This is by no means a comprehensive list. I just want to pass along a few good resources to anyone who cares.


Comrades and Enemies: Arab and Jewish Workers in Palestine, Zachary Lockman, 1906-1948. Berkeley: University of California Press, c1996. http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft6b69p0hf/ That's Funny You Don't Look Anti-Semitic An Anti-racist Analysis of Left Anti-semitism by Steve Cohen http://www.engageonline.org.uk/ressources/funny/contents.html Hydropolitics along the Jordan River, Scarce Water and its Impact on the Arab-Israeli Conflict http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80859e/80859E00.htm#Contents Zionism--Alive and Triumphant by Chaim Weizmann, The Nation, (March 12, 1924 issue) http://www.thenation.com/doc/19240312/19240312weizmann Why Arabs Kill Jews by Albert Viton, The Nation, (June 3, 1936 issue) http://www.thenation.com/doc/19360603/19360603viton The British Record on Partition Reprinted from The Nation, May 8, 1948 http://emperor.vwh.net/history/br.htm Early Zionists: http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm Amazing old photos. Check out Middle East collection. http://www.old-picture.com/collection-index-001.htm Arab Riots and Jewish immigration, Arab Revolt and the White Paper. from http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm Official British Police Report Regarding Jews’ Appeal to Arabs http://israel-academia-monitor.com//upload_pictures/3112/Haifa British Police Report. Michael Oren address to AIPAC 2007 (fascinating history of US philo-semitism) http://www.aipac.org/Publications/SpeechesByPolicymakers/Oren-PC-2007.pdf UNISPAL: United Nations Information System on the Question of Palestine http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/vDateDoc!OpenView&Start=1&Count=150&Expand=59#59 Maps, documents and treaties: http://www.middle-east-info.org/links/index.htm#mehistoricaldoc

State Department Documents: Foreign Relations, 1964-1968
Arab-Israeli Crisis and War, 1967 http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xix/
CIA Electronic Reading Room http://www.foia.cia.gov/
Self Determination: principle & the law Collated & Sequenced by Nadesan Satyendra http://www.tamilnation.org/selfdetermination/
Ethical Dilemmas in Fighting Terrorism Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief004-8.htm
Saudi Arabia: The Rise, Corruption, and Coming Fall http://www.geocities.com/saudhouse_p/therise.htm
The UN’s Palestinian Refugee Problem by Arlene Kushner http://azure.co.il/magazine/magazine.asp?id=274
Julius Stone, International Law and the Arab-Israeli Confli...

State Department Documents: Foreign Relations, 1964-1968
Arab-Israeli Crisis and War, 1967 http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/johnsonlb/xix/
CIA Electronic Reading Room http://www.foia.cia.gov/
Self Determination: principle & the law Collated & Sequenced by Nadesan Satyendra http://www.tamilnation.org/selfdetermination/
Ethical Dilemmas in Fighting Terrorism Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief004-8.htm
Saudi Arabia: The Rise, Corruption, and Coming Fall http://www.geocities.com/saudhouse_p/therise.htm
The UN’s Palestinian Refugee Problem by Arlene Kushner http://azure.co.il/magazine/magazine.asp?id=274
Julius Stone, International Law and the Arab-Israeli Conflict [PDF] The legal status of the West Bank and Gaza, Jerusalem, the Geneva Conventions, settlements, etc. http://www.aijac.org.au/resources/reports/international_law.pdf
The Abuse of Holocaust Memory: The Far Right, the Far Left and the Middle East – by Michael Ezra http://www.engageonline.org.uk/journal/index.php?journal_id=14&article_id=58
The Holocaust Industry and Norman G. Finkelstein http://dir.salon.com/story/books/review/2000/08/30/finkelstein/index.xml
Jimena: Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa http://www.jimena.org/

I happen to read Ha'aretz (and the Lebanon Star and Jordan Times, and avoid biased American news like the plague) so I'm very aware of the issues in the region. Most Jewish organizations are now lambasting Israel over several recent Knesset decisions that violate democractic standards.

Confirming that you have difficulty with democratic standards. Ha ha.

Which is 414 years longer than any Palestinian kingdom.

Will reply. For now, I'll repeat...

I didn't first use the 'jackboot' term, but if the cap fits then wear it. The original elimination was over a short time. Yours has been longer. Your purpose is to clear Palestinians from the land of ...

I happen to read Ha'aretz (and the Lebanon Star and Jordan Times, and avoid biased American news like the plague) so I'm very aware of the issues in the region. Most Jewish organizations are now lambasting Israel over several recent Knesset decisions that violate democractic standards.

Confirming that you have difficulty with democratic standards. Ha ha.

Which is 414 years longer than any Palestinian kingdom.

Will reply. For now, I'll repeat...

I didn't first use the 'jackboot' term, but if the cap fits then wear it. The original elimination was over a short time. Yours has been longer. Your purpose is to clear Palestinians from the land of their father by any foul means since the inception of that mongrel state. Just so you can maintain a false artificial majority. How would the numbers stack up when displaced Palestinians are included. Which jackboot wearer's numbers are higher then?!...

So when I previously pointed out that the ABUSED of the past had become the ABUSERS of the present like SEX ABUSERS, you had no problem but Amergin mentions the word 'jackboot' and you loose it. My use of the term is simply because it is apt and perfectly makes the point as can be judged by your over reaction.

Israel is a highly imperfect state. But, Jews have been out of the state-building business for 2,500 years.

If this is to elicit sympathy then it's a pretty poor attempt. Yes it is a highly imperfect state, but why the 2,500 year bull. Ireland, which became a republic in '48 declared in Canada, is the same age.

There is no harm in Arabs continuing to rent these lands, and if it employs Arab workers, more the better.

Their fathers, grandfathers, great grandfather, ... farmed this land, even if it was to absentee landlords. Watching Zionist tear down olive trees older than I, sickens me to my core. Racism is so endemic now in large sections of Zionists that I dispar of p

Racism is so endemic now in large sections of Zionists that I despair of peace being possible.

My perception is that to maintain your population proportions that you have imported the dregs of the world. Provided they 'act' as Jews they get to lord and masters over the native Arab population. It is my perception that these imports/settlers are the worst of the racists. Beggars on horseback types. If I treated animals in Ireland the way Zionist mistreat other human beings, then I'd face court charges! It is these settlers that support the right wing fascist parties now in control in Israel. More than 1/3 of the Russia imports proved to have no legitimacy as Jews.

You write at length ...

Racism is so endemic now in large sections of Zionists that I despair of peace being possible.

My perception is that to maintain your population proportions that you have imported the dregs of the world. Provided they 'act' as Jews they get to lord and masters over the native Arab population. It is my perception that these imports/settlers are the worst of the racists. Beggars on horseback types. If I treated animals in Ireland the way Zionist mistreat other human beings, then I'd face court charges! It is these settlers that support the right wing fascist parties now in control in Israel. More than 1/3 of the Russia imports proved to have no legitimacy as Jews.

You write at length about your version of more recent history and about your allies disloyalty. This of course only further shows your desire to have everything your own way with everyone else wrong. I'm into simple solutions.

Europe needs Israel like it needs a bullet in the head. Leave aside for now, the financial disadvantage there are in being associated with you. You are part of the Asian continent, little as you make like it. So first vacate Europe on ALL cultural, sporting, and trade connections. Withdraw our troops guarding your borders. When you have normal relations with your neighbours after the Palestinians are catered for, then restore preferential treatment as now.

British efforts to boycott Israeli institutions will backfire.

There never was a serious boycott. This 25% false attempt will only harm future boycotts. Vanunu is a 10 times more powerful weapon to beat Israel.


So you believe the Israeli-US line on Hamas? You believe that Hamas started the recent spat with Fatah? If you really believe then there is no hope for you. I know it is the official party line and you cannot be even seen to vary from that. There were three level of subterfuge that I know of and maybe there are more. You are only on level one however, the one that is repeated like a mantra. Think ma

I am pasting below the press release in Hebrew. Basically, it says that all the lands that the JNF own was bought at market value by the Jews. Fine, what Prof. Katz doesn't say -- and what he knows, but is too embarrassed, apparently, to admit -- is that the land that the Jews bought from the government was acquired as part of military conquest and sold without the knowledge, and presumably, without the consent of the owners. So, the JNF paid good money for land that did not belong to the government legally to sell! Even the legal advisor to the government at the tim[b]...

I am pasting below the press release in Hebrew. Basically, it says that all the lands that the JNF own was bought at market value by the Jews. Fine, what Prof. Katz doesn't say -- and what he knows, but is too embarrassed, apparently, to admit -- is that the land that the Jews bought from the government was acquired as part of military conquest and sold without the knowledge, and presumably, without the consent of the owners. So, the JNF paid good money for land that did not belong to the government legally to sell! Even the legal advisor to the government at the time questioned the legality of the sale.

Of course, all this is irrelevant to the present bill -- because even if the Arabs sold their lands willingly to the JNF, the present racist bill discriminates in sale against Arabs. Abe Foxman knows that and Moshe Arens knows that -- that is why they oppose it.

I am not surprised that Bar Ilan doesn't get it -- is this a serious university, or what? (I am embarrassed to be in its employ)

Haber is the nom de plume of an orthodox Jewish studies professor based in Israel. Why do I write under a pseudonym? Not because I am afraid of being hounded, like Norman Finkelstein -- thank God, I have tenure. But because I want to keep my academic persona and my polemical persona distinct. contact me off-blog at jeremiah.haber@gmail.com

The Magnes Zionist

Despite their ideological differences, what unites columnists like Charles Krauthammer and Leonard Fein, and what distinguishes them from Salo Baron,the greatest historian of the Jews in the twentieth century, is inter alia their acceptance of the myth that the Jews were forcibly expelled from the Land of Israel, and taken into captivity by the Romans. To this day, most lay people, Jews and non-Jews, accept the myth of the exile, whereas no historian, Jew or non-Jew, takes it seriously.

This post will look at the disconnect between popular and scholarly belief and try to examine the ori...

Despite their ideological differences, what unites columnists like Charles Krauthammer and Leonard Fein, and what distinguishes them from Salo Baron,the greatest historian of the Jews in the twentieth century, is inter alia their acceptance of the myth that the Jews were forcibly expelled from the Land of Israel, and taken into captivity by the Romans. To this day, most lay people, Jews and non-Jews, accept the myth of the exile, whereas no historian, Jew or non-Jew, takes it seriously.

This post will look at the disconnect between popular and scholarly belief and try to examine the origin of the myth several centuries after the event occurred. I will follow pretty closely the first part of a comprehensive article on the subject by Hebrew University professor, Yisrael Yuval, which is available here . Because this article is under copyright, I can’t quote more than a few passages, and so I will just be paraphrasing him. But I urge you to read the article, especially his copious footnotes.

The myth was not invented by the Zionists, although it was greatly used by them, in part, to justify the return of the Jews to their ancestral homeland. For the tacit assumption of the Zionists was that if the Jews had left the land willingly, if they had merely “emigrated” because they found opportunities beckoning in the Diaspora, then they would have betrayed their allegiance to the land, and their return would have been less justified.

That is one of the reasons why Zionists argued for years that the Palestinians left Palestine of their own free will – if they were forcibly expelled, then somehow their claim to the land would be stronger. Of course, the putative expulsion by the Romans was not the only claim of the Jewish people to the land – many peoples have

– many peoples have been exiled from their lands, and the Zionists were not claiming that all of them had a right to return -- but it dovetailed nicely with the historical view of the wandering Jew that finds no rest outside of his native place from which he was expelled.

The first point to make is that well before the revolt against Rome in 66-70 c.e., there were Jewish communities outside Palestine, most notably in Babylonia and in Egypt, but elsewhere as well. References to the dispersal of the Jewish people throughout the civilized world are found in the book of Esther, Jo[b]...

– many peoples have been exiled from their lands, and the Zionists were not claiming that all of them had a right to return -- but it dovetailed nicely with the historical view of the wandering Jew that finds no rest outside of his native place from which he was expelled.

The first point to make is that well before the revolt against Rome in 66-70 c.e., there were Jewish communities outside Palestine, most notably in Babylonia and in Egypt, but elsewhere as well. References to the dispersal of the Jewish people throughout the civilized world are found in the book of Esther, Josephus, and Philo. There is no indication that these communities were small, satellite communities.

Second, there is no contemporary evidence – i.e., 1st and 2nd centuries c.e. – that anything like an exile took place. The Romans put down two Jewish revolts in 66-70 c.e. and in 132-135 c.e. According to Josephus, the rebels were killed, and many of the Jews died of hunger. Some prisoners were sent to Rome, and others were sold in Libya. But nowhere does Josephus speak of Jews being taken into exile. As we shall see below, there is much evidence to the contrary. There was always Jewish emigration from the Land of Israel, as the quote above from Baron indicates.

The first mention of the exile of the Jews occurs in remarks attributed to the third century Palestinian rabbi, R. Yohanan that are found in the Babylonian Talmud, a work that received its final recension several centuries later (c. 500 c.e.): “Our House has been destroyed, our Temple burnt, and we ourselves exiled from our land” (Gittin, 56a). The editor/s of the Talmud referred this statement to the Roman exile. Similar statements can be found elsewhere in

I'm sure that he'll look in on the sandbox that he cannot bring home, this time.

Did you know that the Exile was a total myth.

To this day, most lay people, Jews and non-Jews, accept the myth of the exile, whereas no historian, Jew or non-Jew, takes it seriously.

That Masida? suicide pact event is apparently another myth!

I'm leaving him a few sources that might enlighten him. As Judge Judy would say, at this stage he is well cooked, so I won't hold my breath.

Hagada Hasmalit with
[url=http://www.hagada.org.il/eng/modules.php?n...

I'm sure that he'll look in on the sandbox that he cannot bring home, this time.

Did you know that the Exile was a total myth.

To this day, most lay people, Jews and non-Jews, accept the myth of the exile, whereas no historian, Jew or non-Jew, takes it seriously.

That Masida? suicide pact event is apparently another myth!

I'm leaving him a few sources that might enlighten him. As Judge Judy would say, at this stage he is well cooked, so I won't hold my breath.

Hagada Hasmalit with
Helping Abu Mazen? By: Shmuel Amir

On the political level, it should be noted that the government appointed by Abu Mazen is completely illegal, and the People's Council (the majority of whom are Hamas representatives, some of them sitting in Israeli jails) will not convene to approve this government. Equally unlawful is the dismissal of the previous elected unity government led by Ismail Haniya.

It should also be noted that an overwhelming majority of the Palestinians voted for Hamas, in the West Bank as well!

Prosecuting Mordechai Vanunu |A Trap for Fools [/b]
by Uri Avnery [/b]