God isn't a Republican.

Or a Democrat BTW. And I don't believe Republicans have any monopoly on moral values, nor do I believe what religious conservatives preach about the Bible. Those people are the flamboyant phonies Jesus consistantly held up to ridicule.
What I do believe in is Jesus' concern for the powerless and justice for the voiceless. He didn't favor the haves over the have-nots. He didn't pamper the rich or hang out with the powerful.
Relgious conservatives flaunt their religon endlessly. They want the Ten Commandments hanging in every classroom and courtroom. They make a big fuss about public paryers--at work, at football games, in school, in restaurants, o...

God isn't a Republican.

Or a Democrat BTW. And I don't believe Republicans have any monopoly on moral values, nor do I believe what religious conservatives preach about the Bible. Those people are the flamboyant phonies Jesus consistantly held up to ridicule.
What I do believe in is Jesus' concern for the powerless and justice for the voiceless. He didn't favor the haves over the have-nots. He didn't pamper the rich or hang out with the powerful.
Relgious conservatives flaunt their religon endlessly. They want the Ten Commandments hanging in every classroom and courtroom. They make a big fuss about public paryers--at work, at football games, in school, in restaurants, or at political rallies--so everybody knows how holy they are. Its a far cry from what Jesus taught.

It's interesting to see that "good" needs to be rescued from the religious right wing. Where did they get their notion of morality from anyway, scripture?

Here's a non religious thought on Christianity:

If there were no religion, good would still be good. If there were no god, good would still be good.

Good comes from the heart; from the empathy we have towards one another. And from it comes fairness, compassion, nurturing and love.

If "good" were a spiritual value, all religions would be congruent on this, yet most are at each other's throats, even at times considering it one's duty to kill the other fellow.

Where does that come from but a god's own words? Where does it come from ...

It's interesting to see that "good" needs to be rescued from the religious right wing. Where did they get their notion of morality from anyway, scripture?

Here's a non religious thought on Christianity:

If there were no religion, good would still be good. If there were no god, good would still be good.

Good comes from the heart; from the empathy we have towards one another. And from it comes fairness, compassion, nurturing and love.

If "good" were a spiritual value, all religions would be congruent on this, yet most are at each other's throats, even at times considering it one's duty to kill the other fellow.

Where does that come from but a god's own words? Where does it come from but the very scripture one claims is spiritual?

When god hates homosexuals, when god hates the worshiper of the other religion, when god hates the woman who dares make love before she's married...

It is to the extent that you diverge from what god hates that you re-claim "good". This must perforce be a secular good, because a "spiritual good" means to be congruent with what god wants, not with what YOU want.

By seeking to claim the "good" as a religious value, you are admitting it wasn't a consistent part of scripture in the first place.

Spiritual hate is still hate.

But you are claiming that to hate (gays, infidels, etc.) is NOT a spiritual value.

So when god hates (infidels, gays, shelled fish?, etc), and you say this is not spiritual (as all your comments above have openly implied), then you are also saying that god is not spiritual.

On the other hand, to do good by and for our fellow man requires no such spiritual hypocrisy.

Aces,
Try for one minute to give another concept besides your own some thought (and I mean this in the best way possible).
A large part of me is gay Aces, and I know for a fact that God doesn't hate my so called "sin."
If you have to reject all spirituality to do good, then by all means do so! I don't care what particular path you go down to get to the same destination as me. But I'm mad as hell that some of these people who wouldn't know Jesus Christ if they fell over him are suddenly telling me what moral values are all about. I live my faith Aces. I believe in the Social Gospel, the fight for decent wages, for women's rights, for civil rights, and against war. WWJD? Well, I don't kn...

Aces,
Try for one minute to give another concept besides your own some thought (and I mean this in the best way possible).
A large part of me is gay Aces, and I know for a fact that God doesn't hate my so called "sin."
If you have to reject all spirituality to do good, then by all means do so! I don't care what particular path you go down to get to the same destination as me. But I'm mad as hell that some of these people who wouldn't know Jesus Christ if they fell over him are suddenly telling me what moral values are all about. I live my faith Aces. I believe in the Social Gospel, the fight for decent wages, for women's rights, for civil rights, and against war. WWJD? Well, I don't know Aces, no one knows for sure, but here is what I do know. With 36 million working Americans living below the poverty level, the last thing Jesus would have done is what George W. Bush did in his first term: give tax cuts to the wealthiest of Americans (making it even harder for that camel to squeeze through a needle) while doing nothing for the poor.

Try for one minute to give another concept besides your own some thought (and I mean this in the best way possible).

Okay.

A large part of me is gay Aces, and I know for a fact that God doesn't hate my so called "sin."

I know that too. And I agree.

But I'm mad as hell that some of these people who wouldn't know Jesus Christ if they fell over him are suddenly telling me what moral values are all about. I live my faith Aces.

I know. I like that about you.

I believe in the Social Gospel, the fight for decent wages, for women's rights, for civil rights, and against war. WWJD?

I do too. I find these principles in secular humanism. ...

Try for one minute to give another concept besides your own some thought (and I mean this in the best way possible).

Okay.

A large part of me is gay Aces, and I know for a fact that God doesn't hate my so called "sin."

I know that too. And I agree.

But I'm mad as hell that some of these people who wouldn't know Jesus Christ if they fell over him are suddenly telling me what moral values are all about. I live my faith Aces.

I know. I like that about you.

I believe in the Social Gospel, the fight for decent wages, for women's rights, for civil rights, and against war. WWJD?

I do too. I find these principles in secular humanism. I regret, I have found the opposite in scripture.

Perhaps you can point me to the social gospel "in scripture". Several days ago when I first heard you use the phrase, I looked it up. The historical context was replete with progressive thought constantly fighting the traditional interpretation of scripture.

I eventually just put it aside, noting that if these were truly a social gospel, why doesn't the good book just come out and support these things, openly, unambiguously?

Just outright SAY it. Instead, it has to be the same old "context, metaphor, interpolation, and parable" to get any serious good out of the thing.

And it kind of ticks me off that so much pretending has to accompany what it "means" vs what it "says".

I appreciate the "social" part of gospel. I just wish it were more obvious. It's not you, or people like you, that I find myself at odds with. It's the same people you find yourself at odds with.

Nevertheless, perhaps I shouldn't be so adamant. I'm glad you have a good deal of tolerance.

I find that patience is a good virtue... in others.
Ha ha ha ha ha, just joking.

Really, you're good people. I should lighten up.

After Mass on Sunday morning we would have an open book discussion on the two readings and the Gospel, some heated; but mostly calm over coffee and cookies. Lucky us we had a priest with an open mind, we studied the teachings of Buddha, Islam, Hinduism, and the Torah. When we get right down to the basics we are all the same, looking for something we can not see; but is right in front of us.I always experience God when I am sitting in a treestand on a crisp Fall morning, with the sun peeking over the ridge, frosted leaves falling when the sun hits them,squirrels and chimpmunks rustling the leaves, the lone gobble of a roosting turkey, hot coffee with a granola bar, and an eight point buck che...

After Mass on Sunday morning we would have an open book discussion on the two readings and the Gospel, some heated; but mostly calm over coffee and cookies. Lucky us we had a priest with an open mind, we studied the teachings of Buddha, Islam, Hinduism, and the Torah. When we get right down to the basics we are all the same, looking for something we can not see; but is right in front of us.I always experience God when I am sitting in a treestand on a crisp Fall morning, with the sun peeking over the ridge, frosted leaves falling when the sun hits them,squirrels and chimpmunks rustling the leaves, the lone gobble of a roosting turkey, hot coffee with a granola bar, and an eight point buck checking a scrape just out of bow range, heart pumping, hands shaking, he will still be there during rifle season, sit back and watch God's work, take only what you or a friend can use, he wants it that way, good fortune will come to you.

AcesLucky says:

Perhaps you can point me to the social gospel "in scripture". Several days ago when I first heard you use the phrase, I looked it up. The historical context was replete with progressive thought constantly fighting the traditional interpretation of scripture.

While Iam not the person he directed his comment to, I would like to point out where some of the "Social Gospel" occurs.



Exodus 22: (KJV) 22Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.

23If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;

24And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives sh...

AcesLucky says:

Perhaps you can point me to the social gospel "in scripture". Several days ago when I first heard you use the phrase, I looked it up. The historical context was replete with progressive thought constantly fighting the traditional interpretation of scripture.

While Iam not the person he directed his comment to, I would like to point out where some of the "Social Gospel" occurs.



Exodus 22: (KJV) 22Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.

23If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;

24And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

Deuteronomy 5:14 (KJV) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deuteronomy 10:18 (KJV) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.

Deuteronomy 16 (KJV)18Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment.

19Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.

20That which is altogether just shalt thou follow, that thou mayest live, and inherit the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deuteronomy 24:17 (KJV) Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
Leviticus 19:18 (KJV) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the

@Honoradele

How do you reconcile Exodus 22 (above) with Exodus 21 (below)? Does social gospel care for widows and fatherless children...until sold?

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.... (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
---

How does the "just judgment" in Deuteronomy (above) satisfy the killing of all, even the animals, who refuse to worship your particular god (below)?

T...

@Honoradele

How do you reconcile Exodus 22 (above) with Exodus 21 (below)? Does social gospel care for widows and fatherless children...until sold?

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.... (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
---

How does the "just judgment" in Deuteronomy (above) satisfy the killing of all, even the animals, who refuse to worship your particular god (below)?

Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
Deut 13:15 (KJV)

Is it social gospel to make a rape victim marry her attacker? Is that just judgment?

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman... (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
--

And how do you reconcile Leviticus 19:18 (above) "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge..., with Leviticus 20:13 NAB (below):

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Why? Who did they hurt?
--

This could go on for days.

Yes, one can pick and choose, pare and prune, to find glimmers of good here and there. Granted. But a god that commands killing the innocent in one passage, saying "thou shall not kill" in another...?

C'mon. It's like we're sifting through the garbage trying to find something to salvage.