Very well said, Satchamo and please accept my deepest sympathies for your loss. It's very tragic and most sad when loved ones are lost in wars, but what's even sadder is that there are people who can't seem to comprehend the sacrifices made... and even worse not appreciate and respect those sacrifices for what they are... instead pushing their political agendas and ill-placed beliefs at all the wrong times and all the wrong places, like this post here. Most of them have never known what it's like to be proud, be patriotic, be selfless... or spill a drop of their own blood... all they know is the inept rhetoric of their parents, college professors etc.

I hope this boy grows up remembering...

Very well said, Satchamo and please accept my deepest sympathies for your loss. It's very tragic and most sad when loved ones are lost in wars, but what's even sadder is that there are people who can't seem to comprehend the sacrifices made... and even worse not appreciate and respect those sacrifices for what they are... instead pushing their political agendas and ill-placed beliefs at all the wrong times and all the wrong places, like this post here. Most of them have never known what it's like to be proud, be patriotic, be selfless... or spill a drop of their own blood... all they know is the inept rhetoric of their parents, college professors etc.

I hope this boy grows up remembering his father, remembering this moment, as painful as it was, and never forgetting the immense deeds done by his father and countless others. regardless and despite the Thornes of this world.

the first comment that referred to a political opinion was this:

It is a shame how many belittle and/or take for granted the sacrifices made by others for each of us.

I find the sacrifices made by our troops and their families to be bigger than most can fathom unless they are personally involved. I find it a horror that so many americans sit around spewing rhetoric, who have no idea just how big, and why, these sacrifices are made. Blind patriotism may salve these wounds for some, but not for all.
Having lost family members and friends myself to this horrible war, I am acutely aware of the sacrifice. I am offended to the core that these honorable people have sacrificed thei...

the first comment that referred to a political opinion was this:

It is a shame how many belittle and/or take for granted the sacrifices made by others for each of us.

I find the sacrifices made by our troops and their families to be bigger than most can fathom unless they are personally involved. I find it a horror that so many americans sit around spewing rhetoric, who have no idea just how big, and why, these sacrifices are made. Blind patriotism may salve these wounds for some, but not for all.
Having lost family members and friends myself to this horrible war, I am acutely aware of the sacrifice. I am offended to the core that these honorable people have sacrificed their lives for a war built on lies, and find no comfort for my loss in patriotic rhetoric.
I challange you any one, to think for a moment of the grief of those who fear/feel the sacrifice of their loved ones was NOT necessary, that they gave their lives in vain. I am among this number, and I have a number of friends who are, too. Our grief is as real as anyone's.

This idea that some of the commenters on this thread seem to have, that if you've lost someone in the war then you have a right to demand that no one voice any criticisms, is insulting to the intelligence and freedom of Americans. And Thorne demonstrates that it's not true. Having a family member in the military, or serving in the military yourself, does not mean you check your ability to think for yourself at the door. Nor does it mean you blindly support your government's policies. I realize it's not my business, but I think RecordSage and everyone who's attacked Thorne's patriotism ought to apologize. Shame on you for impugning someone else's character on the basis of their political view...

This idea that some of the commenters on this thread seem to have, that if you've lost someone in the war then you have a right to demand that no one voice any criticisms, is insulting to the intelligence and freedom of Americans. And Thorne demonstrates that it's not true. Having a family member in the military, or serving in the military yourself, does not mean you check your ability to think for yourself at the door. Nor does it mean you blindly support your government's policies. I realize it's not my business, but I think RecordSage and everyone who's attacked Thorne's patriotism ought to apologize. Shame on you for impugning someone else's character on the basis of their political views, and then claiming to be doing it in defense of American values.

Now who's being sensitive? Its okay for Thorne to say its a needless death, but the rest of us have to shut up and apologize because we don't agree with Thorne? My husband was drafted in 1967 and discharged in 1969. We lived through being called "baby killers" and worse. The hatred of the Vietnam War began with the same comments being made now, needless war, needless deaths, butting into a civil war, what are we there for, etc. The comment about the needless death brought back 1967-1969 like it was yesterday. What's next, burning draft cards, "Hell no, we won't go!", burning ROTC buildings, Chicago riots just before the Democratic convention, burning flags--as the old adage states, "th...

Now who's being sensitive? Its okay for Thorne to say its a needless death, but the rest of us have to shut up and apologize because we don't agree with Thorne? My husband was drafted in 1967 and discharged in 1969. We lived through being called "baby killers" and worse. The hatred of the Vietnam War began with the same comments being made now, needless war, needless deaths, butting into a civil war, what are we there for, etc. The comment about the needless death brought back 1967-1969 like it was yesterday. What's next, burning draft cards, "Hell no, we won't go!", burning ROTC buildings, Chicago riots just before the Democratic convention, burning flags--as the old adage states, "those who don't remember history are destined to repeat it." Haven't we learned anything?

@debbyski, thorne, enbar - all of you are falling off the left side of the spectrum and thus falling over each other trying to support the next. Nothing admirable, nor surprising.

However, I'd say that our comments here have nothing to do with free speech or anything else stated. It's a matter of basic respect and courtesy. That's what was challenged here. You could have your political views, but you could also have some respect and that respect certainly isn't being shown by dropping some political stuff or beating your chest until you knuckles bleed, stating that you have every right to... Nobody's advocating taking your rights away... but there's a place and there's a time and this ...

@debbyski, thorne, enbar - all of you are falling off the left side of the spectrum and thus falling over each other trying to support the next. Nothing admirable, nor surprising.

However, I'd say that our comments here have nothing to do with free speech or anything else stated. It's a matter of basic respect and courtesy. That's what was challenged here. You could have your political views, but you could also have some respect and that respect certainly isn't being shown by dropping some political stuff or beating your chest until you knuckles bleed, stating that you have every right to... Nobody's advocating taking your rights away... but there's a place and there's a time and this ain't it.

I agree with enbar on one point - one doesn't have to experience something to have an honest opinion on the subject. Of course experience is a huge thing and certainly plays a role... but not mandatory. One can certainly appreciate and respect Satchamo's story without reliving the horrors of what her husband went through or what he faced when he came home.

It's a basic human trait (respect) that some possess and you don't appear to... as simple as that.

Sorry, RS. Not buying it. This image is one that Satch found cruising flicker or some such. It is not satch's son, or grandson.
Satch herself says:

"When my husband, a veteran who died of complications of a stroke, many years after serving,"

This clip is poignant and evokes feelings for satch. I respect that. It also evokes feelings for me. Too bad you can't respect that.
Have you lost someone to this travesty of a war? I have. My godson of 22 years is dead. His mother and father feel the same as I. That it was a horrible sacrifice in a needless war. We have a right to those feelings. The bright eyed, patriotic young man who enlisted and went to Iraq returned an o...

Sorry, RS. Not buying it. This image is one that Satch found cruising flicker or some such. It is not satch's son, or grandson.
Satch herself says:

"When my husband, a veteran who died of complications of a stroke, many years after serving,"

This clip is poignant and evokes feelings for satch. I respect that. It also evokes feelings for me. Too bad you can't respect that.
Have you lost someone to this travesty of a war? I have. My godson of 22 years is dead. His mother and father feel the same as I. That it was a horrible sacrifice in a needless war. We have a right to those feelings. The bright eyed, patriotic young man who enlisted and went to Iraq returned an older and wiser young man who was dissillusioned at a government that sent him to fight a war we can't win, without body armor, among other necessities. When he returned for his second tour he wasn't scared; he was discouraged. Nonetheless he returned to Iraq for a couple of reaons. First, he had made a committment to serve his country, and he believed a man is only as good as his word. He also returned because he said he couldn't let his buddies; his unit, down. That's what I hear, over and over, from the many troops I have spoken with and written to. I hear folks saying how much they hate this war, how pointless it is, but how they can't let their buddies down, or leave them to "do it" alone.
We loved and supported him and his friends, and I still do support every warrior who serves this country. Neither they nor the greater part of our family support the war, but we clearly understand the difference between supporting the troops and supporting the war. My bumper sticker reads "Support the Troops, bring them home" and it is made right here in America, (unlike the yellow ribbon magnets everywhere that are made in China.) and a portion of the proceeds from the sale goes to buy body armor for our troops, I do vote, I also contribute as I'm able to the cantidates of my choic

choice. I also petition, write letters, make phone calls and blog. In fact, I'll be blogging tomorrow for ThePeaceTraindot org in a "Peace is Patriotic" blogswarm. How many troops are you emailing or writing?? How many troops are you baking cookies for?

Satch, my husband, grandfather, 2 uncles, and godfather all were vets, and all died many years later from non war related causes as did your husband. I have 3 flags. Each one broke my heart, but none more than the most recent one, given my best friend and mother of my godson just over 6 months ago.

So you and Rs and whoever else go ahead and tell me I'm unpatriotic or don't know when to speak. I'll tell you all that I will speak out ...

choice. I also petition, write letters, make phone calls and blog. In fact, I'll be blogging tomorrow for ThePeaceTraindot org in a "Peace is Patriotic" blogswarm. How many troops are you emailing or writing?? How many troops are you baking cookies for?

Satch, my husband, grandfather, 2 uncles, and godfather all were vets, and all died many years later from non war related causes as did your husband. I have 3 flags. Each one broke my heart, but none more than the most recent one, given my best friend and mother of my godson just over 6 months ago.

So you and Rs and whoever else go ahead and tell me I'm unpatriotic or don't know when to speak. I'll tell you all that I will speak out every chance I get, with my own loss as a freaking banner, against this war and the lies it has been built upon.

Deb and Enbar, I appreciate your support. No-one owes me any apologies, however. I have become used to the righteous rhetoric of the right, especially those who haven't lost someone to this clusterfuck in the desert. I have become accustomed to the fact that they will pick and choose which of my words they choose to respond to, rather than take the entirety of my comments in context.

kvk101,
First of all, anything we imagine about the photo of the little boy is hypothetical. None of us knows what the family of that particular soldier felt. Whether they felt his sacrifice was necessary or needless. I repeat, this is not sactch's personal family pic. And all grief is sacred. Private?? It's posted on the web. Satch chose to share it and her feelings about the photo and the memories it evoked for her. I did the same. I didn't claim "free speech". Some folks came to my "defense" with their opinions, much in the same way as yourself and RS echoed/defended Satch's feelings with your own. Further, I was respectful of satch's feelings. I sta...

kvk101,
First of all, anything we imagine about the photo of the little boy is hypothetical. None of us knows what the family of that particular soldier felt. Whether they felt his sacrifice was necessary or needless. I repeat, this is not sactch's personal family pic. And all grief is sacred. Private?? It's posted on the web. Satch chose to share it and her feelings about the photo and the memories it evoked for her. I did the same. I didn't claim "free speech". Some folks came to my "defense" with their opinions, much in the same way as yourself and RS echoed/defended Satch's feelings with your own. Further, I was respectful of satch's feelings. I stated so.

Satchamo, I accept and honor your opinion.

And what exactly, makes my comment "agenda" driven than this:

ClipClipHooray12 Moving picture, moving comment Satchamo.
It is a shame how many belittle and/or take for granted the sacrifices made by others for each of us.

(*emphasis mine)

which was posted before I made my comment?

Poor baby. Made all the worse by the needlessness of the sacrifice of this brave life lost.

Satch mentions Vietnam. My uncle was in vietnam. He, along with many vietnam vets I know, returned to a country which scorned them. A country which sent them to do a job, and then pulled them out with the job undone and countless lives lost and shattered as a result. A government that thanked the living veterans with denial of medical tretment for so called "imaginary" illnesses caused by Agent Orange... just like the many vets suffering from "gulf war syndrome". Clipmarks is a forum for discussion and commentary. If clippers don't care to hear any but the opinions which agree with/echo their own, then they would be better served to post their clips on a blog in which they moderate the comments to cull opposing views.

I am a Vietnam Veteran. Was there from November 1967 to September 1968. Was wounded three times. Two of those almost took my life. I saw the young men die around me. They were only 19 years old. Same as I was. And I saw no reason for why we were there. Nor were we told the reason why. I believe that is what most wars are like. It is not to reason why. It is but to do or die. Into the jaws of hell rode the six hundred. Truly pathetic rhetoric. When we stop glorifying wars and examine the truth behind them. We may find they were all needless. Like the old saying ( fighting is the last resort of the ignorant)

And I can tell you all from my own experience. The Government does not take care of i...

I am a Vietnam Veteran. Was there from November 1967 to September 1968. Was wounded three times. Two of those almost took my life. I saw the young men die around me. They were only 19 years old. Same as I was. And I saw no reason for why we were there. Nor were we told the reason why. I believe that is what most wars are like. It is not to reason why. It is but to do or die. Into the jaws of hell rode the six hundred. Truly pathetic rhetoric. When we stop glorifying wars and examine the truth behind them. We may find they were all needless. Like the old saying ( fighting is the last resort of the ignorant)

And I can tell you all from my own experience. The Government does not take care of its Veterans. They would rather see them dead then wounded. Dead is cheap. Stick them in the ground. Call them heroes. Give a flag to who ever. Pay the one time death benefit. Move on to the next puppet. Oh I forgot. They give a nice $35.00 medal called the purple heart.

But I do know who really does care about me. Its people like…….Thorne......debbyski........enbar
People with common sense. People that see the truth over political rhetoric. I also know those Hippies that protested the Vietnam war.They were our conscience. And their efforts stopped the foolishness of a needless war that caused the death of 58,000 young boys.

If you want to know what real soldiers think. Then visit this URL.

http://www.veteransforamerica.org/page/weblog/public/yes

If you want to just wave the flag. And pretend were ok. Then that’s your choice. A lot of people died for that right. I know, because I saw them.

satch, I know what you mean. I was preteen during those years. My uncle was constantly in harm's way. I was torn terribly between the propaganda of BOTH sides, and too young to recognize it for what it was. All I knew was that I feared for my uncle, while my grandpa, a WW II vet and staunch patriot in the terms of the day, decried Vietnam as a SNAFU, (while waiting for that knock on the door), and while kids at Kent State Ohio were dying for peaceful protest. Even then at my tender age
I was consumed with the need to know; obsessed with the desire to understand. I read everything I could get my hands on for several years during this time. I tried to put myself...

satch, I know what you mean. I was preteen during those years. My uncle was constantly in harm's way. I was torn terribly between the propaganda of BOTH sides, and too young to recognize it for what it was. All I knew was that I feared for my uncle, while my grandpa, a WW II vet and staunch patriot in the terms of the day, decried Vietnam as a SNAFU, (while waiting for that knock on the door), and while kids at Kent State Ohio were dying for peaceful protest. Even then at my tender age
I was consumed with the need to know; obsessed with the desire to understand. I read everything I could get my hands on for several years during this time. I tried to put myself in the place of each person from patriot to soldier to protester to deserter.
The scary thing for me, was (is), that I can put myself sincerely in any one of them. If you really try, can't you??? I can all too easily imagine fighting for what I believe is right, (I've done it in lesser ways, of course), I can also imagine objecting to being drafted for moral, ethical or even baser reasons such as plain old fear. I can imagine and have felt the horror at the atrocities committed by very human soldiers under inhuman conditions, but if I'm honest I can also imagine situations in which I might do them! Just based on the verbal attacks I've been on the receiving end of, I can imagine being jailed or beaten or killed for expressing my views.
Am I grateful to those who have preserved my rights as an american? Yes. Am I also disgusted at what I perceive is the casual use of our children as cannon fodder in an economically expedient war that "we the people" are unlikely to benifit from? Yes.
IMO, it's all pretty FUBAR.

cptenaud,

And I can tell you all from my own experience. The Government does not
take care of its Veterans. They would rather see them dead then
wounded. Dead is cheap. Stick them in the ground. Call them heroes.
Give a flag to who ever. Pay the one time death benefit. Move on to the
next puppet. Oh I forgot. They give a nice $35.00 medal called the
purple heart.

This is what moves me. Terribly. Above all, I suppose I'm a humanist and in the end whether a war was right or wrong, necessary or needless, doesn't hold a candle to my outrage at even a single person (the actual numbers are beyond horrific) being discarded and abused by the very government they served.
I also u...

cptenaud,

And I can tell you all from my own experience. The Government does not
take care of its Veterans. They would rather see them dead then
wounded. Dead is cheap. Stick them in the ground. Call them heroes.
Give a flag to who ever. Pay the one time death benefit. Move on to the
next puppet. Oh I forgot. They give a nice $35.00 medal called the
purple heart.

This is what moves me. Terribly. Above all, I suppose I'm a humanist and in the end whether a war was right or wrong, necessary or needless, doesn't hold a candle to my outrage at even a single person (the actual numbers are beyond horrific) being discarded and abused by the very government they served.
I also understand why it's so nearly impossible for so many who have lost loved ones to war to let go of the false solace of the thought that their sacrifice was necessary to preserve our freedoms. Probably the only thing worse than losing your son, daighter, brother, sister, father, mother, lover... would be the thought/knowledge /fear that the sacrifice was indeed needless.
The sad truth is that people are merely cannon fodder for the government that rules them. Any country, every country does its best to instill a sense of patriotism in its citizens, a patriotism based on so-called moral beliefs, religion, fear and general us/them propaganda.
"Acceptable losses" shouldn't be. But there I go... my "Idealism" is showing, again. In closing, cptenaud, thank you for your service.

@debbyski,

My 'political agenda' is to prevent islamofascists from their march of destroying America, Americans (that's including you, btw) and everything it stands for. The problem isn't my 'political agenda' - it's your lack of understanding of what we're dealing with here.

If the islamists were capable of reason - I would definitely have a different take on the issue. However, that's not the case.

As for the veterans, I certainly support them where I can and donate to veteran causes, I hope you do as well. Talking about support is meaningless, IMO, unless you actually do something about it.

All wars are bad, this one isn't any better or worse than others, despite the low casualties...

@debbyski,

My 'political agenda' is to prevent islamofascists from their march of destroying America, Americans (that's including you, btw) and everything it stands for. The problem isn't my 'political agenda' - it's your lack of understanding of what we're dealing with here.

If the islamists were capable of reason - I would definitely have a different take on the issue. However, that's not the case.

As for the veterans, I certainly support them where I can and donate to veteran causes, I hope you do as well. Talking about support is meaningless, IMO, unless you actually do something about it.

All wars are bad, this one isn't any better or worse than others, despite the low casualties on our end. But any casualty is a tragedy.

As for learning something from this war - there isn't much new one can learn - war is war, just as it always has been. We're not fighting this war as it should be, thus the results... Even though we're not is due to your kind of rhetoric - you're still pissed and we're not winning, so certainly this approach was totally wrong. This war could've been wrapped up years ago.

As for 'blatant support of the flag - you better believe it. I came here 30 years ago being a fan. I became much more one, especially after becoming a citizen. I am an American and proud of it. My take is simple - you're ashamed of your country - move elsewhere. You think America is so terrible - there are hundreds of countries worldwide and nobody's stopping you or me from leaving. It's not any more complex than this. You and yours act as a third party, there's me & mine, which are in full support of America and proud to be Americans, then there are ali's and others who want America dead & buried and there's you and yours, who are suppose to be American, but actually talk & act a lot more like the 2nd group than the 1st one.
The fact that I'm staunchly pro-American doesn't stop me from being in 100% disagreement with the President on immigration...

I've now lived through 4 wars, Korean, Vietnam, Desert Storm and Iraq/Afghanistan. I was only 5 when Korea started, in college when Vietnam began. The only popular war (if one can call it that) was Desert Storm. From the beginning of the buildup until conclusion was 6 months or so. What does that say about present day Americans? If we can get in, do our job, and get out its an okay war, but if it drags on, we throw up our hands and get out. The generation that lived through World War II, knew it would not be easy or short-lived. (My parents generation and my husband's parents generation.) Our founding fathers, from the time of the first shot at Concord, knew it would not be a short wa...

I've now lived through 4 wars, Korean, Vietnam, Desert Storm and Iraq/Afghanistan. I was only 5 when Korea started, in college when Vietnam began. The only popular war (if one can call it that) was Desert Storm. From the beginning of the buildup until conclusion was 6 months or so. What does that say about present day Americans? If we can get in, do our job, and get out its an okay war, but if it drags on, we throw up our hands and get out. The generation that lived through World War II, knew it would not be easy or short-lived. (My parents generation and my husband's parents generation.) Our founding fathers, from the time of the first shot at Concord, knew it would not be a short war (1775-1783). The Civil War (1861-1865), our greatest loss of life, was not short -- between the length of the Civil War and the loss of life sustained, its amazing we ever recovered from it. "War is hell", but again, it comes down to someone has to stand on our walls with guns and enforce our present foreign policy, as the Japanese showed before the start of World War II, negotiating, compromising -- does not always work--the other party has his own agenda and does not care about your country's agenda or desire to live in peace -- and as Woodrow Wilson proved during World War I, isolationism does not work either -- we cannot just withdraw into our shell, live our lives here, and hope the rest of the world doesn't bother us. The companies that we work for now have global interests, these affect our jobs, pay and quality of life, we may not like big gas/oil and the other large corporations, but our country depends on them for many things--Fundamentalist Islams and others threaten our freedom to live in a free society--we never like or get accustomed to the loss of life, the devastation --but its the price we pay to live here.

OH RECORD,
What the hell are you talking about?? Please do not accuse me of being anti-American for not supporting a war that was based on lies and deceit. What exactly is my kind????

Dammit Record,
Would you give one red cent of your tax money to support our troops and their mental and physical health issues? One red cent?? Put your money where your mouth is for a change.
Take those tax cuts you support for the rich and give them to our veterans for God's sake.

And I aint' going anywhere Record. I've been here for quite a while and I plan on staying. Please do NOT insult me by telling me to leave a county I love. And BTW, my family is in the DAR so we've been here quite a w...

OH RECORD,
What the hell are you talking about?? Please do not accuse me of being anti-American for not supporting a war that was based on lies and deceit. What exactly is my kind????

Dammit Record,
Would you give one red cent of your tax money to support our troops and their mental and physical health issues? One red cent?? Put your money where your mouth is for a change.
Take those tax cuts you support for the rich and give them to our veterans for God's sake.

And I aint' going anywhere Record. I've been here for quite a while and I plan on staying. Please do NOT insult me by telling me to leave a county I love. And BTW, my family is in the DAR so we've been here quite a while baby.

The only thing we are in agreement on is your statement that all wars are bad. They are Record. And please do not give me any credit for our losing this war. That all falls on the administrations horrible handling of it.

@thisnamecanbetaken - no need to apologize - you certainly have the right to voice your thoughts, even though it's kind of surprising that the 'corrupt leader' hasn't taken that right away from you. Perhaps he's working on it to do in the last year of his administration.

The bottom line is - you're right, I did live in the land of oppression and I know exactly how it works. You have no clue what you're talking about, since you haven't lived like that. The fact that I lived in that environment makes me such a strong supporter of the USA. We certainly have problems in this country, but it is still the best place in the world.

And I don't get where you come off accusing of me of supportin...

@thisnamecanbetaken - no need to apologize - you certainly have the right to voice your thoughts, even though it's kind of surprising that the 'corrupt leader' hasn't taken that right away from you. Perhaps he's working on it to do in the last year of his administration.

The bottom line is - you're right, I did live in the land of oppression and I know exactly how it works. You have no clue what you're talking about, since you haven't lived like that. The fact that I lived in that environment makes me such a strong supporter of the USA. We certainly have problems in this country, but it is still the best place in the world.

And I don't get where you come off accusing of me of supporting anyone blindly - I never did and never would. In fact in the comment I made I clearly stated being 100% OPPOSED to the new immigration bill that they tried to impose on the public here. That includes Bush, since he was supporting it. Also, anyone should be able to deduce from my comments about the war that I don't agree with how it's being conducted, i.e. I'm in disagreement with the President on this one as well.

As for me being into putin or whatever... well, I guess I already stated once that you have no clue, no reason to repeat myself.

@debbyski, in the order requested:

1) I'm not accusing you personally, because I don't know you personally. However, I would say that if negative statements are made about one's country, those statements clearly doing nothing to help in moral support and support the troops at least on that level, those statements being clearly used by the enemy to boost their propaganda and intentionally or not assist the enemy then yes, in my personal opinion this is anti-Americanism. There are no 2 Americas, one you support and one you don't. It's only one with good and bad that comes with it. If it's your country - I think it needs to be supported fully, especially at a time of war. Part of the prob...

@debbyski, in the order requested:

1) I'm not accusing you personally, because I don't know you personally. However, I would say that if negative statements are made about one's country, those statements clearly doing nothing to help in moral support and support the troops at least on that level, those statements being clearly used by the enemy to boost their propaganda and intentionally or not assist the enemy then yes, in my personal opinion this is anti-Americanism. There are no 2 Americas, one you support and one you don't. It's only one with good and bad that comes with it. If it's your country - I think it needs to be supported fully, especially at a time of war. Part of the problem here is that most people here don't even realize what a war is. So, they get their political agenda's shirts and crank up their little rallies along some roads, in their tanktops, shorts and beer, on the way to the beach afterwards. I think if the war was here, on your footsteps, in your schools, in your backyard - you'd have a different outlook on the situation. So, yes, I totally disagree with 'supporting the troops', while calling them 'nazis' and 'babykillers' at the same time. The two don't work together.

2) I don't know what you're talking about in terms of my red cents. I clearly indicated that I donate to veteran organizations and have nothing but utmost respect for anyone in our military... and that's regardless of the fact that I'm the only one working with wife and two kids that don't earn anything. I can't say I donate huge amounts of money, but certainly do donate what I can and veteran/police/firefighters are typically at the top of my donation lists, in that order.

And as for the tax cuts - sorry... with all my respect for the country, I have totally given up on Congress being able to spend money effectively. So, yes, I want to get as much of the money I make as I can and I'll determine how to disseminate it, to what causes etc.

Just averted another war downstairs by simply placing Thomas-the-train DVD and pushing play. How's that for slick way to end wars?

Anyway, as I said, the war in Iraq certainly could've and should've been won. Personally I believe that it was started for the right reasons, saddam had no place on this planet... but wasn't handled properly and thus the results. You certainly had nothing to do with it. I don't believe in hillary's approach of 'if I knew then what I know now' - that's BS, pure political BS. We're all that smart and all our vision is 20/20 after the fact. The country went to war, with the President declaring, the Congress voting for it and the population supporting it. ...

Just averted another war downstairs by simply placing Thomas-the-train DVD and pushing play. How's that for slick way to end wars?

Anyway, as I said, the war in Iraq certainly could've and should've been won. Personally I believe that it was started for the right reasons, saddam had no place on this planet... but wasn't handled properly and thus the results. You certainly had nothing to do with it. I don't believe in hillary's approach of 'if I knew then what I know now' - that's BS, pure political BS. We're all that smart and all our vision is 20/20 after the fact. The country went to war, with the President declaring, the Congress voting for it and the population supporting it. People don't win wars by 'getting tired' of the concept. If you go to war - you fight the war until you win or lose. We as a nation went to this war and we as a nation should be supporting our troops and the country, period. If we think things should be changed - we have laws in this country that allow for regime change and quite often in the bigger scheme of things. Part of our problem is lack of backbone in both parties, and overwhelming desire for power overshadowing patriotism and common sense.

There are things we can do at the polling places... as we did in the last election. Unfortunately, we didn't gain anything we thought we would in the process. So, it just simply means that we need to be more adamant and vigilant about who we vote for... and we have such rights and abilities... but we don't stage the disagreement to the world by having our elected officials declaring loss publically or calling our troops names, as kerry did. That's disgraceful, IMO.

Finally, I don't really understand why you and a few others from your end of political spectrum jumped all over me (notice that it's only you and yours that got offended, interestingly enough). After all, all I was saying was being totally pro the country you claim to love and cherish - what's wrong with that?

The problem, ratiflar, is that you don't have your facts straight. The war wasn't started based on 'lies', it was started based on series of intelligence reports, from several different countries (England and Russia being known 2). That information was weighted to be more credible by what saddam did in prior years (in terms of using WMDs), his blatant and unwavering support of terrorism and certainly being no friend of the USA.

If you want to say that we didn't find any meaningful quantities of WMDs in Iraq - that would be accurate. If you want to say that he didn't have them - you have no clue, many people would say that he did.

I agree with you that the war on terror should be fought ...

The problem, ratiflar, is that you don't have your facts straight. The war wasn't started based on 'lies', it was started based on series of intelligence reports, from several different countries (England and Russia being known 2). That information was weighted to be more credible by what saddam did in prior years (in terms of using WMDs), his blatant and unwavering support of terrorism and certainly being no friend of the USA.

If you want to say that we didn't find any meaningful quantities of WMDs in Iraq - that would be accurate. If you want to say that he didn't have them - you have no clue, many people would say that he did.

I agree with you that the war on terror should be fought on multiple fronts and it is. I'm sure you've heard about arrests and killings of terrorists in Pakistan and other countries. You make it sound like it doesn't happen - it does. What's stupid is our lack of backbone... that is lack of real and appropriate response, in dealing with islamists, mosques, immigration etc. We're trying to deal humanely with people who don't understand the concept... that's what's stupid, because we wind up with the shorter end of the stick in the process.

Yes the first lie was that WMDs where there reason for the invasion, it was merely an excuse, and as it turned out a bad one. Also many where warning that there was no there, there and where ignored (Hans Blix for one) and even those nations that erred on the side of caution and said that perhaps Iraq had some WMD capability did not support the invasion. The whole UN presentation was based largely on the testimony of Curveball, a German intelligence asset that the Germans had a lot of doubts about. Problem was that WMDs and false patriotism (or the fear of been called anti-American) spooked the press and allowed people like Judith Miller/Ahmed Chalabi to run roughshod over them and ignore th...

Yes the first lie was that WMDs where there reason for the invasion, it was merely an excuse, and as it turned out a bad one. Also many where warning that there was no there, there and where ignored (Hans Blix for one) and even those nations that erred on the side of caution and said that perhaps Iraq had some WMD capability did not support the invasion. The whole UN presentation was based largely on the testimony of Curveball, a German intelligence asset that the Germans had a lot of doubts about. Problem was that WMDs and false patriotism (or the fear of been called anti-American) spooked the press and allowed people like Judith Miller/Ahmed Chalabi to run roughshod over them and ignore the excellent reporting of the McClathtchy/Knight Ridder newspapers on the subject.

No WMD, and very little reason to believe that they had that capability, and a kaleidescope of reasons post invasion has shown that this was a farce from the get go.

I believe it is you who have your facts wrong. And a second investigation by Congress was blocked by the Republicans and for some reason the Democrats are sitting on their behinds on it.

Oh and a few links....

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/newswar/part1/wmd.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2966639.stm

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1510259,00.html

And this....

WASHINGTON - The
public version of the U.S. intelligence community's key prewar
assessment of Iraq's illicit arms programs was stripped of dissenting
opinions, warnings of insufficient information and doubts about deposed
dictator Saddam Hussein's intentions, a review of the document and its
once-classified version shows.

As a
result, the public was given a far more definitive assessment of Iraq's
plans and capabilities than President Bush and other U.S.
decision-makers received from their intelligence agencies.

The
stark differences between the public version and the then top-secret
version o

All you who say there were no WMD in Iraq are quite wrong. There were and many were either smuggled out or never found. There are satellite photos (and ground based photos) showing caravans of trucks rolling out of Iraq loaded with goodies before the U.S. ever rolled in.


Here's a D.O.D. report from March 11th, 1998
detailing the problem the U.S. faced with Saddams WMD program and why the destruction of those weapons was never verified.


If there never were any WMD in Iraq, [url=http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/BC30B...

All you who say there were no WMD in Iraq are quite wrong. There were and many were either smuggled out or never found. There are satellite photos (and ground based photos) showing caravans of trucks rolling out of Iraq loaded with goodies before the U.S. ever rolled in.


Here's a D.O.D. report from March 11th, 1998
detailing the problem the U.S. faced with Saddams WMD program and why the destruction of those weapons was never verified.


If there never were any WMD in Iraq, WHY is the U.N. spending millions of dollars in Iraq oil money STILL searching for them, when they themselves admit there may be nothing left to find? Talk about corruption and lies.

The UN suspended those inspections. And the inspectors where allowed to return. Iraqi officials admitted that Saddam tried to bluff his way out of this, playing the ambiguity game but it failed. Also that site appear to be anti-Syria propaganda site run from Lebanon, not the best source of information. If they are in Syria, why hasn't the U.S. moved to seize, destroy them or better yet the IDF have them attacked. I doubt that the Israelis, who seem hellbent on attacking Iran would not take out these sites next door, is not how they work.

So your proof is in fact non existent, even the White House has admitted that there was no there, there. I would think that Tony Snow would be reminding a...

The UN suspended those inspections. And the inspectors where allowed to return. Iraqi officials admitted that Saddam tried to bluff his way out of this, playing the ambiguity game but it failed. Also that site appear to be anti-Syria propaganda site run from Lebanon, not the best source of information. If they are in Syria, why hasn't the U.S. moved to seize, destroy them or better yet the IDF have them attacked. I doubt that the Israelis, who seem hellbent on attacking Iran would not take out these sites next door, is not how they work.

So your proof is in fact non existent, even the White House has admitted that there was no there, there. I would think that Tony Snow would be reminding anyone that would listen that yes there where WMDs and that the U.S. will deal harshly with anyone that has them.

I'll check the next WH press briefing and get back to you on that one.

Oh and as for the ones not found? 4 years of looking and 3 teams and nothing except for some buried useless leftovers from the Iran-Iraq war. And your article is from April 1998, you forget what happened on December of that year, Operation Desert Fox!

The UN suspended those inspections. And the inspectors where allowed to return.

The U.N. JUST suspended (as in about 1 week ago) those 'searches'. This was supposedly after Washington had pushed them for the last 2 years to discontinue the program.

Iraqi officials admitted that Saddam tried to bluff his way out of this, playing the ambiguity game but it failed.

There was a taped interview with one of Hussein's sons laughing about how they 'tricked' the U.N. weapons inspectors so easily.

If they are in Syria, why ha...

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The UN suspended those inspections. And the inspectors where allowed to return.

The U.N. JUST suspended (as in about 1 week ago) those 'searches'. This was supposedly after Washington had pushed them for the last 2 years to discontinue the program.

Iraqi officials admitted that Saddam tried to bluff his way out of this, playing the ambiguity game but it failed.

There was a taped interview with one of Hussein's sons laughing about how they 'tricked' the U.N. weapons inspectors so easily.

If they are in Syria, why hasn't the U.S. moved to seize, destroy them or better yet the IDF have them attacked. I doubt that the Israelis, who seem hellbent on attacking Iran would not take out these sites next door, is not how they work.

Think about that for a minute. The U.S. is going to strike into Syria to destroy the very weapons we sold to Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war? Supposedly those are the weapons that were smuggled out of Iraq. The ones with U.S. serial numbers would look pretty bad if they were used against anyone now wouldn't they? The U.S missed the chance to destroy them before the second Gulf war and now it's a huge problem.

So your proof is in fact non existent, even the White House has admitted that there was no there, there. I would think that Tony Snow would be reminding anyone that would listen that yes there where WMDs and that the U.S. will deal harshly with anyone that has them.

Is it? That D.O.D. report from 1998 correlates with what the Russians JUST said by abstaining from that UNMOVIC suspend vote last week. They said there are in fact missiles missing and there is no proof they were destroyed. [url=http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21993205-1702,00.html]WHY would the Russians be the only party to abstain from that 14-0 vote[/url