You know what baby? I wanna comment on this cause as you know I'm from WV. Some people do think those things here and it never ceases to amaze me. Ignorance or small town newspapers which are slanted to the conservative view? (and which I quit reading long ago, btw) A large elderly population? (some elderly people are way more progressive than you can ever imagine)
To be honest, I dunno and sometimes I get tired of fighting that particular fight. We all grew up here in WV learning the cardinal rule of thumb which is never discuss politics or religion. Although it is a democratic state, it is a very conservative state with rooting with a heritage of hunting.
Racism...

You know what baby? I wanna comment on this cause as you know I'm from WV. Some people do think those things here and it never ceases to amaze me. Ignorance or small town newspapers which are slanted to the conservative view? (and which I quit reading long ago, btw) A large elderly population? (some elderly people are way more progressive than you can ever imagine)
To be honest, I dunno and sometimes I get tired of fighting that particular fight. We all grew up here in WV learning the cardinal rule of thumb which is never discuss politics or religion. Although it is a democratic state, it is a very conservative state with rooting with a heritage of hunting.
Racism and biogotry? Well, this state is pretty much white, that's for sure. Homophobia? OMG, I would never entertain the idea of kissing a woman in a public place around here for any length of time except at a gay bar, although there is something to be said about kissing a beautiful woman while parked in your vehicle at the 7/11 dressed in sexy bathing suits (it tends to cause the male population to faint dead away)
Why do I stay? Because it's beautiful, it's friendly, crime is low, and people are honest. Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it

I wanted to let you know that I voted this morning Alt and I overheard a poll worker telling another poll worker that Obama's people were coming around and wanting to look at the computer printouts and he told the other worker that it was illegal until after the polls were closed and the votes tabulated and he said two other precincts had to call the police to have them escorted out. Like I said, I just overheard that poll worker talking and I have no idea if this is true or not true, so take it for what it's worth. I expect Hillary to carry this state hugely. Ppl are everywhere in support of her, and I had a discussion with my boss about this clip in particular and several ppl were liste...

I wanted to let you know that I voted this morning Alt and I overheard a poll worker telling another poll worker that Obama's people were coming around and wanting to look at the computer printouts and he told the other worker that it was illegal until after the polls were closed and the votes tabulated and he said two other precincts had to call the police to have them escorted out. Like I said, I just overheard that poll worker talking and I have no idea if this is true or not true, so take it for what it's worth. I expect Hillary to carry this state hugely. Ppl are everywhere in support of her, and I had a discussion with my boss about this clip in particular and several ppl were listening to our discussion and they all did NOT like Obama. I am amazed at their reasons for not liking him. Not good at all Alt

Ppl are everywhere in support of her, and I had a discussion with my
boss about this clip in particular and several ppl were listening to
our discussion and they all did NOT like Obama. I am amazed at their
reasons for not liking him. Not good at all Alt

I can't help but think that there's a lot of dishonest bigotry going on. Kind of like passive-aggressive racism. I clipped a story about a local bar in an Atlanta suburb that mentions that they just say publicly what others say in private. I guess that's right. Very sad. Damn, it's been over half a century and while progress has been made (Obama a prime example) ther...

Ppl are everywhere in support of her, and I had a discussion with my
boss about this clip in particular and several ppl were listening to
our discussion and they all did NOT like Obama. I am amazed at their
reasons for not liking him. Not good at all Alt

I can't help but think that there's a lot of dishonest bigotry going on. Kind of like passive-aggressive racism. I clipped a story about a local bar in an Atlanta suburb that mentions that they just say publicly what others say in private. I guess that's right. Very sad. Damn, it's been over half a century and while progress has been made (Obama a prime example) there's still large segments of generational bigotry going on. It makes a person want to go out and grab people and shake them and scream at them to wake the f*&k up!!

"racism and bigotry" are in every human heart and any one who says otherwise is lying

Well, that's a pretty bitter worldview. Maybe in your neck of the woods but I've met plenty of people who aren't racist or bigoted.

We all believe that *Truth* is with those with whom we agree and follow; everyone else is "ignorant" and deceived.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "Truth" here. I personally know many people that I don't agree with who aren't "unTruthful". Yet I sincerely question anyone trying to defend racism as simply a difference of opinion. Some stances are simply wrong from a humanitarian viewpoint. If you'd care to discuss this topic from that view...

"racism and bigotry" are in every human heart and any one who says otherwise is lying

Well, that's a pretty bitter worldview. Maybe in your neck of the woods but I've met plenty of people who aren't racist or bigoted.

We all believe that *Truth* is with those with whom we agree and follow; everyone else is "ignorant" and deceived.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "Truth" here. I personally know many people that I don't agree with who aren't "unTruthful". Yet I sincerely question anyone trying to defend racism as simply a difference of opinion. Some stances are simply wrong from a humanitarian viewpoint. If you'd care to discuss this topic from that viewpoint have your say.

Calling rural America "bastions of hate" is pretty condemning across the board.

And quote mining is dishonest too! Later I commented:

"Actually there's plenty of good people everywhere. It just takes more effort in some areas to find them. "

The clip was specifically referring to the political tactics being used in WV. Clinton will win by a large margin and the reason is in large part will be because of negative political campaingiing using fear and reacism.

Then you ascribe to the world-view that humanity is basically "good". I don't.

How sad.

"Truth" in our day and age is whatever anyone wants it to be.

I don't know you or your history. The assertion that you make though is usually held by a religious person. Your following comment about your children being taught this in school is also a familiar belief among fundamentalists. Of course,I might be completely wrong.

Absolutes can be dangerous if people cling to them in the face of contrary evidence. Once people believed slavery was moral. Once people believed that the sun revolved around the earth. Once people believed that "witches" should be killed. Peop...

Then you ascribe to the world-view that humanity is basically "good". I don't.

How sad.

"Truth" in our day and age is whatever anyone wants it to be.

I don't know you or your history. The assertion that you make though is usually held by a religious person. Your following comment about your children being taught this in school is also a familiar belief among fundamentalists. Of course,I might be completely wrong.

Absolutes can be dangerous if people cling to them in the face of contrary evidence. Once people believed slavery was moral. Once people believed that the sun revolved around the earth. Once people believed that "witches" should be killed. People once believed that mentally ill people were possed by demons. Some people still believe these things even though evidence shows these views to be the result of ignorance. So absolutes aren't all they're cracked up to be. In my opinion, rationality, empathy, and compassion are better tools to use than some arbitary "rules" that were a better fit for a bygone era.

My children were taught that in public school and it was bad,

I'm curious what "it" is that was "bad". What was it that you disagree with. You're being a bit nebulous here and not very clear. Perhaps if you could be more specific what you consider "bad" we can have a conversation.

I believe there are 'absolutes'.

Like what?

Not "sad"; just realistic.

I disagree. Now, if one doesn't hold the view of original sin or some other type of dogma, then this idea of the badness of humanity simple doesn't hold together and is more representative of not having thought this position through. It seems a lazy way to justify your position. Certainly people in...

My children were taught that in public school and it was bad,

I'm curious what "it" is that was "bad". What was it that you disagree with. You're being a bit nebulous here and not very clear. Perhaps if you could be more specific what you consider "bad" we can have a conversation.

I believe there are 'absolutes'.

Like what?

Not "sad"; just realistic.

I disagree. Now, if one doesn't hold the view of original sin or some other type of dogma, then this idea of the badness of humanity simple doesn't hold together and is more representative of not having thought this position through. It seems a lazy way to justify your position. Certainly people in certain situations have done reprehensible things. Others have come up with differing explanations for these behaviors. We have advanced in our knowledge over time. We understand more now why people engage in certain behaviors. Views such as racism are frequently taught in a family setting. They are therefore generational and very difficult to eradicate. Hyper nationalism is adopted by certain people who believe sound bites of information from the government. Anti-semitism is frequently taught in certain religious sects.

Perhaps my title was a bit provocative and you reacted to that. It has been my experience that rural people tend to be, on the average, more conservative and not as open to new ideas as urban people that are exposed to more novel situations and a wider spectrum of people.

I can't help but think that there's a lot of dishonest bigotry going on. Kind of like passive-aggressive racism

I wanna talk about that some more Alt. I was quite frankly shocked. People were saying things like Obama is for his people and not for our people and blacks want something for nothing and they think we all owe them something and blah, blah, blah, blah. I was saying do you people want John McCain? Do you want another George Bush? And they were like no! Obama is the lesser of two evils if he is the candidate. The lesser of two evils????? I wanted to shake them and scream on the one hand, but on the other hand I wanted them to be completely h...

I can't help but think that there's a lot of dishonest bigotry going on. Kind of like passive-aggressive racism

I wanna talk about that some more Alt. I was quite frankly shocked. People were saying things like Obama is for his people and not for our people and blacks want something for nothing and they think we all owe them something and blah, blah, blah, blah. I was saying do you people want John McCain? Do you want another George Bush? And they were like no! Obama is the lesser of two evils if he is the candidate. The lesser of two evils????? I wanted to shake them and scream on the one hand, but on the other hand I wanted them to be completely honest. I wanted to see that honesty; I wanted to know that completely or they would just see that I didn't like it and they would hide it and believe me I know all about hiding feelings from others.
Now put this all in the context of me being a bisexual woman and being out to most of those people in that conversation. Oh sure, they love me cause I'm debby but can you imagine how they really feel about me underneath it all? I am not the status quo. I shake them up to the core. I talk about my sexuality.
Now imagine growing up like this. Imagine having all your "straight" girlfriends wanting you to be their particular "experiment" on drunken evenings out with the girls. hahahahhhahahha, I'd do em all day long, those fucking hypocrites.

Exactly, Debby! It fits perfectly. It matters not if we're talking about racism, homophobia, misogyny, antisemitism or any of a myriad of issues that can divide people. There is a thread of distrust that weaves it way into people's psyche whenever they confront someone who is different from the norm. In some that thread is amplified so that it becomes a visible pattern that defines their life's cloth. In the majority that thread is simply aways there and a particular movement causes the cloth to pucker or bind. Or people hide this thread under coverings of opposite hued fabrics such as working to educate inner city minority students or contributing to certain charities. All laudable acts but...

Exactly, Debby! It fits perfectly. It matters not if we're talking about racism, homophobia, misogyny, antisemitism or any of a myriad of issues that can divide people. There is a thread of distrust that weaves it way into people's psyche whenever they confront someone who is different from the norm. In some that thread is amplified so that it becomes a visible pattern that defines their life's cloth. In the majority that thread is simply aways there and a particular movement causes the cloth to pucker or bind. Or people hide this thread under coverings of opposite hued fabrics such as working to educate inner city minority students or contributing to certain charities. All laudable acts but until the thread is acknowledged, until it is examined to find how it interacts with the warp and woof of the fabric and ultimately removed it will continue to make its presence known.

Another aspect of bigoted thought is the pay back it gives to people and this is often difficult to overcome. Remember at the beginning of the Iraq fiasco the jokes made about the French? I'm certain a large number of people derived pleasure at putting down all things French. It allowed them to feel superior although there was no objective ground to base this feeling on. It was permitted bigotry. The French were reduced to cartoon people and their culture damned for the actions of a few.

There is a certain swing of prejudice that affects us. I grew up during the civil rights error. Luckily my parents, being immigrants, didn't pass along the prevailing racism that surrounded me during that time. They saw first hand what it could do to a people and made sure that their children fought long and hard against it. But that's no guarantee. Unfortunately my sister took another path. She hides her "thread" under her fundamentalism. "Hate the sin..." hypocrisy.

The conclusion that we're left with is people are not one dimensional. They are filled with contradictions, unresolved issues, and “facts” that are merely holdovers from unexamined perceptions and opinions. Ask enough questions and you might get lucky sometimes and find out what they really think. But never think that they don't benefit in some deep way by the way they think or the manner in which they act. It may seem self destructive, negative and life disaffirming yet it benefits the actor otherwise they wouldn't continue with it.

I have much respect for the mature way in which Obama addressed the issue of race in his speech after the Wright fiasco. Whether or not it will have the intend...

The conclusion that we're left with is people are not one dimensional. They are filled with contradictions, unresolved issues, and “facts” that are merely holdovers from unexamined perceptions and opinions. Ask enough questions and you might get lucky sometimes and find out what they really think. But never think that they don't benefit in some deep way by the way they think or the manner in which they act. It may seem self destructive, negative and life disaffirming yet it benefits the actor otherwise they wouldn't continue with it.

I have much respect for the mature way in which Obama addressed the issue of race in his speech after the Wright fiasco. Whether or not it will have the intended result to get people to begin to unravel the fabric of their own bigotry is yet to be seen.

But never think that they don't benefit in some deep way by the way
they think or the manner in which they act. It may seem self
destructive, negative and life disaffirming yet it benefits the actor
otherwise they wouldn't continue with it.

Yes Alt, they do. And that is the part that hurts me to the bottom of my soul. People seem to be very intolerant of differences and I will never know why. Here is a coming out story of a young bisexual girl who could have been me so many years ago:

http://www.rslevinson.com/gaylesissues/comingoutstories/blcomealeia.htm

I have decided in my adult year...

But never think that they don't benefit in some deep way by the way
they think or the manner in which they act. It may seem self
destructive, negative and life disaffirming yet it benefits the actor
otherwise they wouldn't continue with it.

Yes Alt, they do. And that is the part that hurts me to the bottom of my soul. People seem to be very intolerant of differences and I will never know why. Here is a coming out story of a young bisexual girl who could have been me so many years ago:

http://www.rslevinson.com/gaylesissues/comingoutstories/blcomealeia.htm

I have decided in my adult years that I can only change attitudes by being a positive example, by continuing to be honest, and by not hiding myself any longer in order to give encouragement to those who feel the pressure to continue to hide. Can I stop the ugliness of racism here or homophobia here? No. Can I be silent? No. Is it difficult at times? Yes. Social change is often a very slow and hard fought battle, but one that is always worth fighting for

You ain't kidding honey.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-campaign14-2008may14,0,5426999.story?track=ntothtml

West Virginia's demographics closely matched Clinton's political base.
Interviews with voters leaving polling places showed an electorate that
was 95% white, less educated and poorer than in most other states. Four
in 10 were over age 60, and a little more than half came from rural
areas.

Racial attitudes also boosted her performance. About 1 in 5 voters said
race influenced their decision, and about 8 in 10 of them backed
Cli...

read more»

You ain't kidding honey.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-campaign14-2008may14,0,5426999.story?track=ntothtml

West Virginia's demographics closely matched Clinton's political base.
Interviews with voters leaving polling places showed an electorate that
was 95% white, less educated and poorer than in most other states. Four
in 10 were over age 60, and a little more than half came from rural
areas.

Racial attitudes also boosted her performance. About 1 in 5 voters said
race influenced their decision, and about 8 in 10 of them backed
Clinton.

Dorsey Claypool, 62, who drives a garbage truck, intended to vote for
Clinton as soon as he finished work. "They always helped me every time
I needed something," Claypool said of Bill and Hillary Clinton. "They
are good people."

Asked about Obama, Claypool hesitated, then said he would not vote for him because he was black.

And to add to the political stew we have a dash of John Edwards Obama endorsement tonight.

Racial attitudes also boosted her performance.

Ah, you gotta love politics. Seems to me that they mis-spoke just a smidgeon. Change the "al" to "sm" and the characterization fits better.

About 1 in 5 voters said
race influenced their decision, and about 8 in 10 of them backed
Clinton.

I'd imagine that there's a bit of dishonesty embedded in that sample. I admit, I don't know much about WV. I've never been there. I love the outdoors and frequently go hiking, but to be honest, from what I've heard recently about your state, I've yet to develope a burning desire to visit. Ra...

And to add to the political stew we have a dash of John Edwards Obama endorsement tonight.

Racial attitudes also boosted her performance.

Ah, you gotta love politics. Seems to me that they mis-spoke just a smidgeon. Change the "al" to "sm" and the characterization fits better.

About 1 in 5 voters said
race influenced their decision, and about 8 in 10 of them backed
Clinton.

I'd imagine that there's a bit of dishonesty embedded in that sample. I admit, I don't know much about WV. I've never been there. I love the outdoors and frequently go hiking, but to be honest, from what I've heard recently about your state, I've yet to develope a burning desire to visit. Racism is endemic across this country to a certain degree. I'd alway thought that Georgia and her neighbors were the keepers of the sheet for the KKK (Stone Mountain was owned by the Veneble family before it became a State Park. James Veneble was the imperial wizard and burned crosses in front of Stone Mountain for over 50 years. In an ironic twist of fate, back in the 90s the mayor of the town of Stone Mountain was a black man who lived in the same house where Venable lived much of his life.

Then there's George Wallace, former governor of Alabama who became the symbol of segragation and bigotry. But this all happened 50 and 60 odd years ago. It seems like WV is stuck in the 50's. Please don't tell me Debby that you guys still wear poodle skirts!

Please don't tell me Debby that you guys still wear poodle skirts!

Hahahahahahaha,
It's not that bad Alt! You can visit me anytime and we'll sit off my deck on my second home in the country drinking beer and watching the grass grow
Attitudes are under the surface here. Like I said, ppl don't talk about their feelings or opinions much until they get to know you and are sure you are like-minded for the most part. I don't see much segration where I live which is a neighborhood that is racially mixed, but I can see it in the really rural areas where my second property is located. I've been known to frequent gay bars here and I've never had a problem, but then I [i...

Please don't tell me Debby that you guys still wear poodle skirts!

Hahahahahahaha,
It's not that bad Alt! You can visit me anytime and we'll sit off my deck on my second home in the country drinking beer and watching the grass grow
Attitudes are under the surface here. Like I said, ppl don't talk about their feelings or opinions much until they get to know you and are sure you are like-minded for the most part. I don't see much segration where I live which is a neighborhood that is racially mixed, but I can see it in the really rural areas where my second property is located. I've been known to frequent gay bars here and I've never had a problem, but then I fit in. I don't look different or act different and that makes me non-threatening in a sense.
Opinions around here can just get set in stone so easily, and I don't think that people even realize they are being bigoted or homophobic! To me, it's just a matter of time. Our state is very poor Alt. We are largely uneducated, and we have a large elderly population who are known to sometimes be resistant to change. We also are largely influenced by the newspapers which are owned by those with republican affliations. I found this out when I supported Charlotte Pritt as governor. It was horrible how the press crucified her.
But the positives are many. People can be ignorant at times, but we are a very kind and caring people for the most part. This state is one of the safest in the union, and is absolutely gorgeous.

It's difficult to explain WV culture and pride Alt. People here are tough and self sufficient. Life can be very slow paced. You might have a 15 minute conversation with the clerk in the store! People smile and say hello to strangers. I tease about being southern, but we aren't southern or northern, we are simply our own! It's so easy to generalize by stereotypes, but that's not who we are. We all love and help each other here, and we respect each others belongings. I remember being at a large sale for tillers once and they had an area rep there and I found his wallet on the ground. I held it up and said "Did anyone lose their wallet?" and he was simply amazed at my hon...

It's difficult to explain WV culture and pride Alt. People here are tough and self sufficient. Life can be very slow paced. You might have a 15 minute conversation with the clerk in the store! People smile and say hello to strangers. I tease about being southern, but we aren't southern or northern, we are simply our own! It's so easy to generalize by stereotypes, but that's not who we are. We all love and help each other here, and we respect each others belongings. I remember being at a large sale for tillers once and they had an area rep there and I found his wallet on the ground. I held it up and said "Did anyone lose their wallet?" and he was simply amazed at my honesty, but that is something most West Virginians would do. Lordy, everyone grows a garden and cans. So I'm proud of that geniune love even though we have a long way to go regarding racism, sexism, and homophobia.

Very nice comments, Debby. I guess I came across as somewhat harsh in some of my comments. Us elitist intellectuals tend to do that sometimes.

I suppose I've gotten used to a more "frantic" lifestyle living in Atlanta all my life. I recently had cause to meet with some ex-relatives in central Florida not long ago. Wonderful people to be sure. Very caring and supportive. I did make the faux pas of engaging one in a political conversation and I was quickly whisked off to fantasy land. I found it disconcerting having a conversation with someone who had totally bought into the propaganda concerning WMDs, mushroom clouds, etc. So realizing I was a guest and out of my element I let it slide. ...

Very nice comments, Debby. I guess I came across as somewhat harsh in some of my comments. Us elitist intellectuals tend to do that sometimes.

I suppose I've gotten used to a more "frantic" lifestyle living in Atlanta all my life. I recently had cause to meet with some ex-relatives in central Florida not long ago. Wonderful people to be sure. Very caring and supportive. I did make the faux pas of engaging one in a political conversation and I was quickly whisked off to fantasy land. I found it disconcerting having a conversation with someone who had totally bought into the propaganda concerning WMDs, mushroom clouds, etc. So realizing I was a guest and out of my element I let it slide. Aside from that encounter and a few sidelong glances when certain topics were brushed on (minorities, immigrants, economy) I found life in small town America to be at once "pleasant" and stifling.

I guess home is where we are. As you're no doubt aware, Atlanta is rife with crime and violence but along with that it is vibrant and alive. I guess what attracts me the most is the element of discovery. And the choices that are available. A veritable stew of cultures, people and ideas. I guess I prefer the uncertainty and unpredictability and yes, even the danger, of a large city. To each their own.

You've made some great points though about over generalizing. I admit to doing this probably more often than some. Sometimes to provoke a conversation, sometimes out of frustration, and sometimes just to piss someone off. I'd pledge to improve but frankly I just don't have the time. So much to do and time's running out...

You have a lot of good insights too Alt The downside is that is very disconcerting at times, especially for someone like me. Sometimes I crave diversity and like minded people. But the positives outweigh the negatives I think. And I'm very lucky in the fact that I am able to have stayed here my whole life. Most people can't.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/21/us/21west.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&oref=slogin

You can take the West Virginian out of WV but they will always want to come home. It's a very strange phenomena I've not noticed as much in other states.

"I've lived...

You have a lot of good insights too Alt The downside is that is very disconcerting at times, especially for someone like me. Sometimes I crave diversity and like minded people. But the positives outweigh the negatives I think. And I'm very lucky in the fact that I am able to have stayed here my whole life. Most people can't.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/21/us/21west.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&oref=slogin

You can take the West Virginian out of WV but they will always want to come home. It's a very strange phenomena I've not noticed as much in other states.

"I've lived a lot of places," Ms. Giardina said. "And I don't think
I've ever seen an obit page like the Gazette's with as many people who
have lived outside their state their entire life but in death have come
back home to be buried."

Even as stifling as it can sometimes be for me Alt, I still love and defend so many things about my little state. These quotes from the article say it best:

"these stereotypes lead many West Virginians to be defensive about
their state, which contributes to an us-against-the-world sense of
identity."

"We're like hound dogs," she said. "We want to roam, but we feel guilty and lost if we stray."

Ain't nothing like a houng dog baby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We8P_Ww27hY