The One True Church must eventually emerge as the source by which we discover what is actually true.

Since "church" is simply the place (or body) where people worship and uphold doctrine purported to be "revealed" and thus not verifiable, the One "True" Church would be a misnomer.

It would be like saying the one "true" color, or the one "true" holiday. Such things are purely subjective and have nothing to do with what is true, but what is socially preferable or taught to a person or group.

"Catholic and non-Catholic alike should have as their one concern the question of what Christ intended.."

The presupposition of what "Christ" intended, automatically excludes the othe...

The One True Church must eventually emerge as the source by which we discover what is actually true.

Since "church" is simply the place (or body) where people worship and uphold doctrine purported to be "revealed" and thus not verifiable, the One "True" Church would be a misnomer.

It would be like saying the one "true" color, or the one "true" holiday. Such things are purely subjective and have nothing to do with what is true, but what is socially preferable or taught to a person or group.

"Catholic and non-Catholic alike should have as their one concern the question of what Christ intended.."

The presupposition of what "Christ" intended, automatically excludes the other "clubs" the first sentence says it's NOT about! To wit:

"..we are not engaged in a rivalry between our side and some other side.."

Such a blatant contradiction hardly before leaving the same paragraph! I'm afraid it IS a rivalry between our side and some other side, as some other "sides" couldn't care less about what Christ intended.

And NONE of the sides have any real knowledge, but pretend knowledge, because "revealed" knowledge is not known!

How thus can there possibly be a "True" church?

ok, but believing this truth...

Believing this what...?

does no harm to anyone in and of itself.

Are you referring to religious killing? Honor killing? Letting children die from lack of medical treatment? Crusades and jihads? Which type of harm are you ignoring specifically?

All men must die and the religious battle will continue as long as we walk the earth.

And that's the good news?

The existence of Jesus doesn't claim to need a verification

Surely you jest!

but anything that you claim to be true does. The burden is on you.

I think the burden of proof should be on ANYONE who makes a claim, especially an ex...

ok, but believing this truth...

Believing this what...?

does no harm to anyone in and of itself.

Are you referring to religious killing? Honor killing? Letting children die from lack of medical treatment? Crusades and jihads? Which type of harm are you ignoring specifically?

All men must die and the religious battle will continue as long as we walk the earth.

And that's the good news?

The existence of Jesus doesn't claim to need a verification

Surely you jest!

but anything that you claim to be true does. The burden is on you.

I think the burden of proof should be on ANYONE who makes a claim, especially an extraordinary one!

In that sense, we come to discover the truth. Pretending something is true doesn't make it so. And I honestly believe that you know that.

A church can never represent a truth as long as it relies on made-up non-verifiable stories. That's why they all require faith -- a subjective agreement to 'pretend that it's true'.

One True Church therefore is a misnomer.

The Pope just told millions of people that condoms add to the proliferation of HIV/AIDS and you want me to give it a rest?

Girls are being hanged from the neck until dead because they committed the crime of getting raped and you want me to give it a rest?

A simple visit to a doctor to save a suffering child's life but the faithful parents thought that prayer would cure them, and you want me to give it a rest?

Imagine a Muslim country with an atomic bomb... and you want me to give it a rest?

How incredibly callous that you would think for one second that I would sacrifice humanity for bronze age religion based on superstition and credulity.

No, Kat, too many people are getting hurt by t...

The Pope just told millions of people that condoms add to the proliferation of HIV/AIDS and you want me to give it a rest?

Girls are being hanged from the neck until dead because they committed the crime of getting raped and you want me to give it a rest?

A simple visit to a doctor to save a suffering child's life but the faithful parents thought that prayer would cure them, and you want me to give it a rest?

Imagine a Muslim country with an atomic bomb... and you want me to give it a rest?

How incredibly callous that you would think for one second that I would sacrifice humanity for bronze age religion based on superstition and credulity.

No, Kat, too many people are getting hurt by these beliefs and someone needs to stand up for the truth. The books are frauds, and you know it.

but I do know that Catholics do not read and are not encouraged to read
the bible if they are not part of the clergy. Nor do they hear more
than a passage or two from the priest on Sundays. The Word is rarely
spoken, read or heard by most Catholics.

What you think you 'know' about millions of 'Catholics' is a bit sad really. Although in the past this statement was partially true, today many millions of Catholics read the Bible daily, and do so joyfully it seems.......maybe you can take a tour of a few Catholic blogs and see for yourself.

Do you attend Mass Kat? Do you know that 'all they hear is a passage or two' on a Sunday? lol....and you somehow magically know what 'most...

but I do know that Catholics do not read and are not encouraged to read
the bible if they are not part of the clergy. Nor do they hear more
than a passage or two from the priest on Sundays. The Word is rarely
spoken, read or heard by most Catholics.

What you think you 'know' about millions of 'Catholics' is a bit sad really. Although in the past this statement was partially true, today many millions of Catholics read the Bible daily, and do so joyfully it seems.......maybe you can take a tour of a few Catholic blogs and see for yourself.

Do you attend Mass Kat? Do you know that 'all they hear is a passage or two' on a Sunday? lol....and you somehow magically know what 'most' Catholics hear, do you?

'The Word is rarely spoken'

That is simply a lie.


And to Aces:

Have you read any of Helen Epstein's research? Have you really sat with what the Pope has written on this horrific subject (in it's entirety, not just the inflammatory one-liner soundbites) and grappled with what he REALLY said about the role of condoms in fighting this scourge? Are condoms really and truly providing the kind of solution you apparently think they are?
I think you may be surprised at what some people have to say in support of the Pope's comments on this.
I know I was.

@antara

Are condoms really and truly providing the kind of solution you apparently think they are?

Do I "apparently" think the use of condoms is a solution to AIDS? Is that what you thought I said?

Look:
sex with condoms
sex without condoms

which is MOST likely to spread venereal disease? I think you know the answer to that question, and so does the pope.
---

@Kat

It is not the beliefs that are hurting people, it's the twisting of those beliefs by organized religion. What did I just get done saying?

Oh, I see... its the "twisting" of those beliefs... ! Oh, okay, then. Your interpretation of what's correct is right and all those others (organized!) is wrong. I see now.

...

@antara

Are condoms really and truly providing the kind of solution you apparently think they are?

Do I "apparently" think the use of condoms is a solution to AIDS? Is that what you thought I said?

Look:
sex with condoms
sex without condoms

which is MOST likely to spread venereal disease? I think you know the answer to that question, and so does the pope.
---

@Kat

It is not the beliefs that are hurting people, it's the twisting of those beliefs by organized religion. What did I just get done saying?

Oh, I see... its the "twisting" of those beliefs... ! Oh, okay, then. Your interpretation of what's correct is right and all those others (organized!) is wrong. I see now.

Interesting... why hasn't the "holy spirit" come to all these wanna bees and set them straight like it has you? Where was this holy spirit during the inquisitions, during the hangings, during the torture, to the mothers praying for divine help to save their child, to the Pope when his priests were raping and molesting children, where is this holy spirit that speaks to YOU but apparently to no one else?

You say its not the beliefs that are hurting people? ITS THE ACTIONS PEOPLE COMMIT B A S E D ON THOSE BELIEFS!

Kat? Your "answer"- answered nothing.

Well, with 1.5 million being
church personnel, 64 million Catholics in the US and supposedly 1
billion world wide, I rest my case. I was a member of that church in
the US long enough to know what makes it tick, in this country at
least. And I guarantee you, the Holy Spirit is definitely not the one
calling the shots.

1. What does the first sentence (personnel and numbers of catholics) have to do with what I actually asked you? I seriously have no clue what you are attempting to say here. Rest your case? Hardly. I truly have no idea what you are talking about.

2. You are a former Catholic---yes?
Well, no offense but, so what? This gives...

Kat? Your "answer"- answered nothing.

Well, with 1.5 million being
church personnel, 64 million Catholics in the US and supposedly 1
billion world wide, I rest my case. I was a member of that church in
the US long enough to know what makes it tick, in this country at
least. And I guarantee you, the Holy Spirit is definitely not the one
calling the shots.

1. What does the first sentence (personnel and numbers of catholics) have to do with what I actually asked you? I seriously have no clue what you are attempting to say here. Rest your case? Hardly. I truly have no idea what you are talking about.

2. You are a former Catholic---yes?
Well, no offense but, so what? This gives you the authority to answer for the billions you just mentioned?

3. You are now an authority on where and upon whom The Holy Spirit rests? Would you mind sharing how you know this?

Thanks.

Aces and Oort:

I would like to request that we all read the following text --the Pope's actual words on this particular subject-- THE CONTINUING AIDS EPIDEMIC IN AFRICA--.
Of course this will require reading actual papal encyclicals, Catholic Social Teaching, etc, and I am not sure you wish to invest that kind of time on something you deem crap to begin with?
Your choice
---but the fact remains that his comment to the journalist on the plane was meant to be read in the light of the teachings on sex and love within marriage, as taught by the Church.
I don't think it's possible to have a meaningful conversation about this topic until we know what it is we are talking about. Unless we are g...

Aces and Oort:

I would like to request that we all read the following text --the Pope's actual words on this particular subject-- THE CONTINUING AIDS EPIDEMIC IN AFRICA--.
Of course this will require reading actual papal encyclicals, Catholic Social Teaching, etc, and I am not sure you wish to invest that kind of time on something you deem crap to begin with?
Your choice
---but the fact remains that his comment to the journalist on the plane was meant to be read in the light of the teachings on sex and love within marriage, as taught by the Church.
I don't think it's possible to have a meaningful conversation about this topic until we know what it is we are talking about. Unless we are going to do that, I see no point in going any further with it here. This is not a copout of any kind, it is really how I see it. Studying theology, dim as I am, has shown me that much.

I also found this article by David Quinn to be pretty interesting:http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/you-cannot-blame-aids-epidemic-on-the-church-1679660.html

......and it was from this article that I got the name Helen Epstein, a scientist who has a lot of things to say about this topic. I asked you if you have looked at her work Aces? Have you? I never said condoms were the CAUSE of Aids, and I believe that is not what the Pope said either.

I am no expert and don't claim to be, but from what I am reading here and in looking at Epstein's work, what the Pope said has merit.

Perhaps you should read this Antara.

A few key notes from that link. There is an admission that condoms are not 100% successful in stopping all std's , but the one main factor that causes these failures is human mistakes in the use of a condom. Most of these mistakes can be corrected through simple sexual education - something else that the Catholic Church strongly opposes.

But here is the clencher :

Claims that latex condoms allow HIV to pass through are unfounded. The pores of latex condoms are too small to allow HIV to pass through. Condoms have been shown to be effective barriers not only to H...

Perhaps you should read this Antara.

A few key notes from that link. There is an admission that condoms are not 100% successful in stopping all std's , but the one main factor that causes these failures is human mistakes in the use of a condom. Most of these mistakes can be corrected through simple sexual education - something else that the Catholic Church strongly opposes.

But here is the clencher :

Claims that latex condoms allow HIV to pass through are unfounded. The pores of latex condoms are too small to allow HIV to pass through. Condoms have been shown to be effective barriers not only to HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, but also to herpes simplex, CMV, hepatitis B, chlamydia and gonorrhea.

So once again the church is making unfounded claims based on their ideology and when push comes to shove they spend their time trying to find excuses to continue their policies rather than using their resources to find the truth.

The Catholic Church likes to claim they are one of the major sources in helping out AIDS ridden Africa and being one of the major providers of help and aid. They have a major impact in the country. It's a little disingenuous to then try and weasel out of responsibility by trying to claim that their followers are only a portion of the population.

Reap what you sow and Catholicism sows a lot of ignorance and bad information when it comes to sex. Abstinence does not work. One may as well tell people to "never do wrong" and then expect that it will actually happen.

The site you have selected really has nothing to do with what we are discussing....which was supposed to be the Pope's recent comments on the continuing AIDS epidemic in Africa. I asked you to speak to his comment in context, and you have not. In fact, you haven't mentioned him at all.

And---again--- Helen Epstein's research has been ignored, and you have made no mention at all of the specific situation/challenges in Africa.
Here are a few bits from a review of her book:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/03/health/03book.html:

"Helen Epstein has for years generated some of the most sensible commentary around, posting dispatches from AIDS-afflicted countries in Africa to The New York ...

The site you have selected really has nothing to do with what we are discussing....which was supposed to be the Pope's recent comments on the continuing AIDS epidemic in Africa. I asked you to speak to his comment in context, and you have not. In fact, you haven't mentioned him at all.

And---again--- Helen Epstein's research has been ignored, and you have made no mention at all of the specific situation/challenges in Africa.
Here are a few bits from a review of her book:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/03/health/03book.html:

"Helen Epstein has for years generated some of the most sensible commentary around, posting dispatches from AIDS-afflicted countries in Africa to The New York Review of Books and other publications. As a scientist morphed into a journalist, Dr. Epstein combines an understanding of the biology of AIDS with a coolly impartial view of the political and social landscape of Africa. She has now assembled more than a decade’s worth of reporting into an enlightening and troubling book."

"Dr. Epstein’s basic point is quite true: the drugs alone will never save Africa. Prevalence and transmission rates are too high, the health care infrastructure is too weak, there are too many other threatening diseases, and the costs are impossible. Instead, experts agree that hope lies in a still-distant vaccine, and in the “invisible cure” of Epstein’s title: dramatic behavioral changes to prevent new infections.

But the problem lies in achieving those changes in cities where almost half the adult population is infected, where rampant poverty turns sex into a form of currency, and children orphaned by AIDS grow up in a chaos that may render them particularly vulnerable to becoming infected as adults.

This 'invisible cure' is I believe, what the Pope is ultimately speaking to in this particular case--changed hearts, changed views on life and Love, resulting in changed behaviour.

Although in the past this statement was partially true, today many millions of Catholics read the Bible daily,

Antara

Well, I pointed out that I am only aware of what is going on in the US Catholic churches. Your "millions" doesn't really give a clear indication of the percentage. So, it could be 2 million for all I know, and spread among 1 billion is a small number.

Personnel means: religious sisters, brothers, permanent deacons, graduate-level seminarians, priestly ordinations, religious priests and diocesan priests, etc.

#3 That all depends on the individuals criteria for what makes someone an authority. If you believe the Catholic church is the authority on the HS, ...

Although in the past this statement was partially true, today many millions of Catholics read the Bible daily,

Antara

Well, I pointed out that I am only aware of what is going on in the US Catholic churches. Your "millions" doesn't really give a clear indication of the percentage. So, it could be 2 million for all I know, and spread among 1 billion is a small number.

Personnel means: religious sisters, brothers, permanent deacons, graduate-level seminarians, priestly ordinations, religious priests and diocesan priests, etc.

#3 That all depends on the individuals criteria for what makes someone an authority. If you believe the Catholic church is the authority on the HS, then you have already made your final choice. But being born and raised within a religion(not that you were), is not exactly what I would call someone making a choice in the religion they choose( and most Catholics are born into it).

Obviously I couldn't read the book, so I listened to her presentation on the subject. http://www.calvin.edu/january/2009/epstein.htm

I don't disagree with anything she says.

A behavioral change? Obviously!! Notice, she clearly states that universal abstinence until marriage is not likely or realistic, because of social and cultural networks in their [African] society. She also admits that "monogamy is a tough sell anywhere in the world."

She said condoms aren't the answer either because its hard to get people to use condoms consistently in long term relationships.

(But she then went on to show that in long term relationships it wasn't necessary unless "new" people were being introduce...

Obviously I couldn't read the book, so I listened to her presentation on the subject. http://www.calvin.edu/january/2009/epstein.htm

I don't disagree with anything she says.

A behavioral change? Obviously!! Notice, she clearly states that universal abstinence until marriage is not likely or realistic, because of social and cultural networks in their [African] society. She also admits that "monogamy is a tough sell anywhere in the world."

She said condoms aren't the answer either because its hard to get people to use condoms consistently in long term relationships.

(But she then went on to show that in long term relationships it wasn't necessary unless "new" people were being introduced into the (sexual) network without the other partner knowing.)

Where HIV rates have fallen, there is use of condoms in casual relationships, and taking on "fewer partners". THAT is the focus of her solution.

She showed with conclusive evidence in Uganda that abstinence could not have played a role in reduction of HIV infections!

When it DID fall, though the teen pregnancy rate stayed the same (which was very high)!! [25:40 in the video] it was because they stuck to the same partners (adhering to the govt. campaign)!

No, condoms is not the solution to curing AIDS or HIV, but it is certainly one of the tools that help prevent the SPREAD of HIV / AIDS when a "new" partner is introduced into a "concurrent" social sexual network.

So she is right, behavior has the greater impact at reducing the spread of V.D. And I agree!

But this in no way suggests that using condoms does NOT help in preventing the "spread" of sexual disease. (Note earlier in the vid she showed the proliferation of aids didn't come from the brothels via casual partners because they DID wear condoms!)

This is from David Quinn's article: You seem to have interpreted things in a very different way than he did. That's fine, but I am presenting his view here as I found the claim he made about the UN suppressing the results their own commissioned research quite concerning......didn't you?

On the other hand, a Catholic who obeys the Church about condoms is
also very likely to obey it with regard to sexual morality in general.
If they and their spouse are doing that, there is no chance of them
contracting HIV/Aids, short of receiving an infected blood transfusion.
The more intelligent critics of the Church will concede this point, but
then dismiss Catholic sexual morality in any case o...

This is from David Quinn's article: You seem to have interpreted things in a very different way than he did. That's fine, but I am presenting his view here as I found the claim he made about the UN suppressing the results their own commissioned research quite concerning......didn't you?

On the other hand, a Catholic who obeys the Church about condoms is
also very likely to obey it with regard to sexual morality in general.
If they and their spouse are doing that, there is no chance of them
contracting HIV/Aids, short of receiving an infected blood transfusion.
The more intelligent critics of the Church will concede this point, but
then dismiss Catholic sexual morality in any case on the grounds that
it is unrealistic. This brings us to the final and most important
point, which is that condom promotion in Africa is a miserable failure.

It is this which fails the realism test. It has been tried for years and the rate of infection has kept rising

It
has only fallen in those countries which promote sexual fidelity. The
very best book on this subject is called 'The Invisible Cure' by Helen Epstein.
She has no axe to grind for the Catholic Church but she cites
irrefutable evidence which shows that fidelity programmes are the most
effective way of combating HIV/Aids.

Epstein shows that the UN
ignored reports, which it had itself commissioned, confirming the
effectiveness of fidelity programmes. This is an immense scandal
deserving of condemnation by governments which are instead directing
their ire at the Pope.

Then, in one very telling passage, Epstein quotes a pro-condom activist who confesses why people such as himself ignored the evidence about fidelity programmes.

He says: "There was a sense that promoting fidelity must be totally wrong if it was a message favoured by the Christian right. We've made an emotional set of decisions and people have suffered terribly because of that. Everything we learn about the epidemic goes in slowly and is resisted on the way."

This devastating admission means that Africans are dying not because of Church opposition to condom programmes, but because of Western aid agencies and Governments and their blinkered, dogmatic, anti-re...

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Then, in one very telling passage, Epstein quotes a pro-condom activist who confesses why people such as himself ignored the evidence about fidelity programmes.

He says: "There was a sense that promoting fidelity must be totally wrong if it was a message favoured by the Christian right. We've made an emotional set of decisions and people have suffered terribly because of that. Everything we learn about the epidemic goes in slowly and is resisted on the way."

This devastating admission means that Africans are dying not because of Church opposition to condom programmes, but because of Western aid agencies and Governments and their blinkered, dogmatic, anti-religious opposition to fidelity programmes.

This is the exact opposite of what we are led to believe and any development worker, journalist, or politician who continues to disregard the fact that fidelity programmes work is part of the problem, not the solution. So let them open their minds to what the evidence actually has to say instead of engaging in cheap, knee-jerk anti-Catholicism.

It is just an expression in response to your claim that millions of Catholics have picked up the bible and read it daily. Then I corrected myself and said I am only aware of what is going on here in the US Catholic churches.

Maybe the Word is spoken in the blogs you refer to, but it is not a part of everyday life here. A Christian would not separate his religious life from his political life or his social life.

Nor would a Christian condone the amassing of great wealth(Vatican City), so called 'just wars' or the killing of humans in any fashion what-so-ever. Christians cannot be called Christians if they are acting as Gentiles or supporting with their mouths and votes the unjust policie...

It is just an expression in response to your claim that millions of Catholics have picked up the bible and read it daily. Then I corrected myself and said I am only aware of what is going on here in the US Catholic churches.

Maybe the Word is spoken in the blogs you refer to, but it is not a part of everyday life here. A Christian would not separate his religious life from his political life or his social life.

Nor would a Christian condone the amassing of great wealth(Vatican City), so called 'just wars' or the killing of humans in any fashion what-so-ever. Christians cannot be called Christians if they are acting as Gentiles or supporting with their mouths and votes the unjust policies of Gentile leaders. 50 percent of Catholics voted for Bush AFTER they new he was a murderer. There is no provision in the bible for war, period. And if the church condones one with their 'just wars' doctrine, then they are adding to scripture which is a serious offense.