The over all picture of the fundamentalist Muslims is that of a violent people, but the main-stream Muslims are the ones who this survey is discussing. Fundamentalists of all faiths, in some way or other always veer towards the violent or dark behaviours. The right-wing Christian fundamentalist spread hate for gays and attack abortion clinics. The right-wing fundamentalist Jews in Israel foment hatred towards the Palestinians and perpetrate violent attacks against Palestinian civilians who are simply living peacefully and trying to eek out a living, in some cases working for them. These same so-called religious people are also guilty of throwing rocks at women who have the audacity to pra...

The over all picture of the fundamentalist Muslims is that of a violent people, but the main-stream Muslims are the ones who this survey is discussing. Fundamentalists of all faiths, in some way or other always veer towards the violent or dark behaviours. The right-wing Christian fundamentalist spread hate for gays and attack abortion clinics. The right-wing fundamentalist Jews in Israel foment hatred towards the Palestinians and perpetrate violent attacks against Palestinian civilians who are simply living peacefully and trying to eek out a living, in some cases working for them. These same so-called religious people are also guilty of throwing rocks at women who have the audacity to pray at the Wailing Wall.

Now of course the fundamentalist Muslims who have been perpetrating these violent terrorist attacks must be dealt with severely. But, whether you choose to believe this or not, the vast majority of those practicing the Muslim faith do not believe in violence and do not support the actions of the fundamentalist terrorists.

@zasel, your comment about violent Jews and peaceful palestinians is about as absurd as it gets. No question that the fundamentalists of any faith could be called extremists, but how many Jews have you seen that send their children into the palestinian midst with bomb belts strapped to them? Do you know of ANY Jews that did/do that? There's a difference between having a major disagreement and bitching about it and making an IED and sending your kid into the crowd somewhere with it knowing he won't be coming back. You've never seen footage of thousands on the streets burning Israeli & US flags and chanting whatever the hell they chant over there? You haven't seen the footage of a healt...

@zasel, your comment about violent Jews and peaceful palestinians is about as absurd as it gets. No question that the fundamentalists of any faith could be called extremists, but how many Jews have you seen that send their children into the palestinian midst with bomb belts strapped to them? Do you know of ANY Jews that did/do that? There's a difference between having a major disagreement and bitching about it and making an IED and sending your kid into the crowd somewhere with it knowing he won't be coming back. You've never seen footage of thousands on the streets burning Israeli & US flags and chanting whatever the hell they chant over there? You haven't seen the footage of a healthy number of people dancing on the streets right after 9/11? Or is that their way of eeking out some food? Or you'd claim that all of these people are fundamentalists? Have you seen many, shoot, let's just say ANY, muslims here on CM come out with vehement opposition to terrorism? We've seen some, seen all of the excuses and US/Israel bashing etc., but no condemnation of terrorism. So you and yours keep defending these people for very strange reasons... If you think most of those folks are peaceful and friendly - try living in one of their countries... see if you, as a self-proclaimed Jew & gay would do somewhere in Gaza? Do you think you'd last a day? I hardly think so.

Nobody says all muslims are terrorists or murderers, but the overall view is unmistakably anti-West. I quoted a poll a while back from a well known and respected organization where in some muslim countries the dislike for the Jews was at 99%! Get it? 99%!!! Are you trying to tell me that all of those 99% are fundamentalists? Stop with the ideology and look at the reality and the facts.

PIPA polls are easy to verify at www.pipa.org and they are famously transparent and objective. The author of the original article, Kenneth Ballen, has cherry picked one data point that appears to support his position when juxtiposed against his own data. Supposedly, Terror Free Tomorrow explains their polls at their website www.terrorfreetomorrow.org but I couldn't find the one Ballen cited. TFT polls seem to be aimed at identifying supporters more than finding facts, anyway. Bear in mind that PIPA is politiclly neutral but TFT is an activist organization with an agenda which boils down to increasing foreign aid to muslim countries.

For me, the bottom line is this. Ballen and his gro...

PIPA polls are easy to verify at www.pipa.org and they are famously transparent and objective. The author of the original article, Kenneth Ballen, has cherry picked one data point that appears to support his position when juxtiposed against his own data. Supposedly, Terror Free Tomorrow explains their polls at their website www.terrorfreetomorrow.org but I couldn't find the one Ballen cited. TFT polls seem to be aimed at identifying supporters more than finding facts, anyway. Bear in mind that PIPA is politiclly neutral but TFT is an activist organization with an agenda which boils down to increasing foreign aid to muslim countries.

For me, the bottom line is this. Ballen and his group are basically dishonest, and his opinion is to be discarded.

Reality, tpq62 isn't as complex as you may paint it. The enemy is the same, regardless what it's called... it's the enemy who hates your guts and wants to kill your family. That definition fits most of the described groups and they all have something in common, which is what's typically reported. You concept of fighting the 'wrong' enemy is bogus... there are some muslims who are normal and who aren't killing our soldiers - those would be the Kurds up North. Somehow you ran out of room and didn't mention this particular group of muslims. Have you heard of many incidents there? Any IED's put together by the Kurds? I certainly haven't. The enemy is blatantly in our faces, regardless wh...

Reality, tpq62 isn't as complex as you may paint it. The enemy is the same, regardless what it's called... it's the enemy who hates your guts and wants to kill your family. That definition fits most of the described groups and they all have something in common, which is what's typically reported. You concept of fighting the 'wrong' enemy is bogus... there are some muslims who are normal and who aren't killing our soldiers - those would be the Kurds up North. Somehow you ran out of room and didn't mention this particular group of muslims. Have you heard of many incidents there? Any IED's put together by the Kurds? I certainly haven't. The enemy is blatantly in our faces, regardless what they call themselves, and they're not difficult to spot. We're only fighting the 'wrong' enemy in your Bush-hate-filled eyes.

well. i've been trying to keep my comments reasonable but over here it seems impossible. how many of you gentlemen have met muslims? do you know any? have you ever studied islamic culture or islamic society? studying it does not mean watching a news channel that necessarily covers limited and sensational sides of the picture. the only thing that people as ignorant of the ground reality of muslims (or with as distant a knowledge as media sources) as you are are allowed is a healthy scepticism, a degree of doubt.

i live in india which incidentally has the second-highest number of muslims in the world. i am a hindu myself but have interacted closely with muslims and their families. i have al...

well. i've been trying to keep my comments reasonable but over here it seems impossible. how many of you gentlemen have met muslims? do you know any? have you ever studied islamic culture or islamic society? studying it does not mean watching a news channel that necessarily covers limited and sensational sides of the picture. the only thing that people as ignorant of the ground reality of muslims (or with as distant a knowledge as media sources) as you are are allowed is a healthy scepticism, a degree of doubt.

i live in india which incidentally has the second-highest number of muslims in the world. i am a hindu myself but have interacted closely with muslims and their families. i have also studied islam, islamic culture and poetry and the religion itself. on the basis of this i am going to make a few more statements.

do you really think the average man on the street muslim is concerned about america? they don't even know you exist. they are busy leading their own lives. most of them are leading a hand-to-mouth existence. to think that international politics intrudes on their world in terms of considered opinions and "hatred" is presumptuous.

i would like to know who constituted the "healthy number of people" who celebrated 9/11. remember the obligation of news channels is to sensationalize. they will always pick the most vocal protesters, the ones likeliest to elicit an extreme response from a viewing audience.

and lastly, if there is so much hatred, there must be some cause for it. most of these countries, and the people inside them, are just asking the united states to LEAVE THEM ALONE. i am not condoning their actions. i am not saying they are right. i am saying you must not allow this extremist minority to colour your perception of a community and members of it. please give each member a separate judgement, they deserve it. and do not be so naive as to think of your nation as an angellic state that has done right by everyone it has interfered with.

tpq62, why don't you watch that documentary 'Obsession'... forgetting the left/right arguments... just look in these people's eyes and listen to what they say and you tell me what your sentiments are based on that. Watch some of their rhetoric on TV, listen to their 'leaders', religious and otherwise. They deplore the West (you and I included) because of few legit and mostly many illegit reasons.

What I believe they want to do isn't relevant for the mass public... what is relevant is what they do (which is where my beliefs are spawned from).

Too many people have been killed to simply put it aside as an intellectual debate to pass the time. And I watch much less TV than you might think. ...

tpq62, why don't you watch that documentary 'Obsession'... forgetting the left/right arguments... just look in these people's eyes and listen to what they say and you tell me what your sentiments are based on that. Watch some of their rhetoric on TV, listen to their 'leaders', religious and otherwise. They deplore the West (you and I included) because of few legit and mostly many illegit reasons.

What I believe they want to do isn't relevant for the mass public... what is relevant is what they do (which is where my beliefs are spawned from).

Too many people have been killed to simply put it aside as an intellectual debate to pass the time. And I watch much less TV than you might think. And even if I do, I don't think me watching some Seinfeld here and there does much in my guidance on the islamofascist issues... then there are DVDs... but those mostly have stars like Thomas the Train, Wiggles, and Warner Bros. classics (which is probably where I got my violence streak from).

@dropdedman - if they want to be 'left alone', why are they moving to the West in droves? There are many questions one can ask, which have been before... and I agree with your notion that TV generally shows events that are scandalous or negative in nature... but that doesn't mean there weren't people dancing and praising on 9/11. They were and quite a few of them from what I've seen. You think it's a normal behavior after a tragedy of that extent? Who cares about their accomplishments 500 years ago, about their art and culture when you read a story about a Western journalist going for an interview with them and gets his head cut off. Is their art somehow suppose to excuse or ignore such...

@dropdedman - if they want to be 'left alone', why are they moving to the West in droves? There are many questions one can ask, which have been before... and I agree with your notion that TV generally shows events that are scandalous or negative in nature... but that doesn't mean there weren't people dancing and praising on 9/11. They were and quite a few of them from what I've seen. You think it's a normal behavior after a tragedy of that extent? Who cares about their accomplishments 500 years ago, about their art and culture when you read a story about a Western journalist going for an interview with them and gets his head cut off. Is their art somehow suppose to excuse or ignore such behavior?

I haven't met a single German until we immigrated from the USSR and yet I wasn't a big fan of theirs after knowing what they did in WW2 and more specifically how they kill my Grandpa without any reason. I'm still not a fan of those Germans, but I do have friends who are Germans of this era and they fully comprehend what their prior generations did etc. I have lots of respect for the Germans of these generations because of their achievements, their conduct and behavior. I'd make the same analogy with your comments about the muslims of yesteryear. Sure they had many things that are worth being admired and they ARE... but not this generation that sends their kids to die and makes IEDs for lunch. When they (in masses) do what the Germans did and what the Japanese did - then they'll deserve to get respect and admiration. If they're truly against the evil of terrorism, and what you say is true about the radicals making up 10-20%, then they certainly should have an upper hand in crushing this useless movement within their midst and mischaracterizing their religion. As long as they're sitting at home and watching their neighbors build IEDs - they don't deserve any better.

For the record, I'm not frightened of anyone... so let's keep things as they are here. But can you explain to me why you take a documentary and say 'put it away'? You want to knock "path to 9/11" as a political movie - fine, since it's not a true documentary (although personally I think they did show what transpired)... but what I don't get is why are you so opposed to seeing some real world footage?

I realize al qaeda doesn't represent all muslims, I've heard you loud and clear on this many times. What I want to see is the muslims, NOT you, telling me this. That's the whole point I'm trying to make - they don't. You're louder than they are. As for whether me playing into the enemy's ...

For the record, I'm not frightened of anyone... so let's keep things as they are here. But can you explain to me why you take a documentary and say 'put it away'? You want to knock "path to 9/11" as a political movie - fine, since it's not a true documentary (although personally I think they did show what transpired)... but what I don't get is why are you so opposed to seeing some real world footage?

I realize al qaeda doesn't represent all muslims, I've heard you loud and clear on this many times. What I want to see is the muslims, NOT you, telling me this. That's the whole point I'm trying to make - they don't. You're louder than they are. As for whether me playing into the enemy's hands, I think a very strong argument can be made that your side is doing so.

willhelm said:

They 95% of jihidi Muslims make the other 5% look bad.

Then my argument was not with you at all. This article happens to talk about the 80-90% of moderate muslims that you don't have a problem with. I was taking up the issue with the gentlemen who, in refuting this article (which they may have been right in doing), have gone on to take positions such as these

RecordSage said:

The proof is in the pudding. They're the ones who are into terrorism, regardless of what these polls show. and this

RecordSage said:

there are some muslims who are normal and who aren't killing our soldiers - those would be the Kurds up North. [/unquote]

Given the context of ...

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willhelm said:

They 95% of jihidi Muslims make the other 5% look bad.

Then my argument was not with you at all. This article happens to talk about the 80-90% of moderate muslims that you don't have a problem with. I was taking up the issue with the gentlemen who, in refuting this article (which they may have been right in doing), have gone on to take positions such as these

RecordSage said:

The proof is in the pudding. They're the ones who are into terrorism, regardless of what these polls show. and this

RecordSage said:

there are some muslims who are normal and who aren't killing our soldiers - those would be the Kurds up North. [/unquote]

Given the context of the quoted article, these comments seem to imply that apart from a few minor exceptions, most muslims are out to kill people.

@RecordSage, when these moderate muslims insist on a poll that they do not support terror, you want to discredit that poll. You didn't even raise questions of its authenticity, you brushed it aside.

and you know how it is with the man on the street. these terrorists have guns. they intimidate people. and moderate voices are never going to be as loud in world media because what they say is just not racy enough. in the same vein, one can say that there were no clear, outward signs of defiance against the saddam regime. are we to take then that the people of iraq were happy under his rule? or that there was significant complicity in their silence...

the truth is, most moderate muslims disre...

@RecordSage, when these moderate muslims insist on a poll that they do not support terror, you want to discredit that poll. You didn't even raise questions of its authenticity, you brushed it aside.

and you know how it is with the man on the street. these terrorists have guns. they intimidate people. and moderate voices are never going to be as loud in world media because what they say is just not racy enough. in the same vein, one can say that there were no clear, outward signs of defiance against the saddam regime. are we to take then that the people of iraq were happy under his rule? or that there was significant complicity in their silence...

the truth is, most moderate muslims disregard this equation of terrorist = muslim to such an extent that they take no notice of it. i could get some of my muslim friends to comment on this site.

i mentioned art and culture to indicate that being a muslim (with its specific codes of upbringing, which is based on historical customs and traditions) does not make one a terrorist.

as for muslims coming to your country, they are moving over to the West for purely economic reasons. And at least some of them play by your rules. what i meant by "leave us alone" was not to suggest zero international activity. i meant no exploitation, no cultural pressures, no armies in the backyard. no support for a nascent saddam hussein, no thumbs up to an infant taliban. I am not suggesting that the US stop intervening- that would be stupid, because the US has its own interests that it needs to protect. I am just saying that they probably have a good reason to cry out like they're doing. that the morality of it is complex, and not a "we are right and they are wrong" or a "us versus them" proposition.

Oklahoma city bombers, cross burnings, Unibomber, lynchings, "Army of God" shooting ob/gyns.....

In these cases, Christians spoke out against them and took action against them. In none of these cases did Christians stand idly by and allow murder to be committed in their name.

This is what I would ask of Muslims and what I do not see. There is something about Islam that, even if it doesn't cause terrorism, at least enables it to occur.

When the American Islamic Forum for Democracy organized "A Rally against Terror" in Phoenix in 2004, where there are about 50,000 Muslims, between 30 and 100 actually showed up. They were vastly outnumbered by the media.


If terroris...

Oklahoma city bombers, cross burnings, Unibomber, lynchings, "Army of God" shooting ob/gyns.....

In these cases, Christians spoke out against them and took action against them. In none of these cases did Christians stand idly by and allow murder to be committed in their name.

This is what I would ask of Muslims and what I do not see. There is something about Islam that, even if it doesn't cause terrorism, at least enables it to occur.

When the American Islamic Forum for Democracy organized "A Rally against Terror" in Phoenix in 2004, where there are about 50,000 Muslims, between 30 and 100 actually showed up. They were vastly outnumbered by the media.


If terrorists are operating in their name, Muslims must condemn it completely and openly and they must take the lead in stopping it. So far, they haven't.

@sonobob: its interesting how you and RecordSage raised the same point. I tried refuting it earlier. i think gzuckier was silly in raising what he/she did. this is not a holier than thou or scorekeeping game. but you might be demanding too much of the muslims. there is a mix of apathy, fear and ignorance at work here, simple human attitudes that one is used to seeing around the world. to ascribe insidious intent to this silence is too much.

it takes an inordinate amount of courage to speak out. n2sooner, you put up that article which spoke of christians finding their voice now. why didn't they mention it earlier? moderate muslims are actually as much the victims of extremism as other natio...

@sonobob: its interesting how you and RecordSage raised the same point. I tried refuting it earlier. i think gzuckier was silly in raising what he/she did. this is not a holier than thou or scorekeeping game. but you might be demanding too much of the muslims. there is a mix of apathy, fear and ignorance at work here, simple human attitudes that one is used to seeing around the world. to ascribe insidious intent to this silence is too much.

it takes an inordinate amount of courage to speak out. n2sooner, you put up that article which spoke of christians finding their voice now. why didn't they mention it earlier? moderate muslims are actually as much the victims of extremism as other nations. even more so. it isn't that easy to speak out.

it takes an inordinate amount of courage to speak out. n2sooner, you put up that article which spoke of christians finding their voice now. why didn't they mention it earlier? moderate muslims are actually as much the victims of extremism as other nations. even more so. it isn't that easy to speak out.

Why were the Christians afraid to speak out? Because they were in a small minority that had been physically attacked. Does that same apply to moderate Muslims or not? I can see why they are afraid to speak out if they are in the minority. On the other hand, if a majority of Muslims are moderate who are truly against terrorism, then there is no reason for them not to speak out.
...

it takes an inordinate amount of courage to speak out. n2sooner, you put up that article which spoke of christians finding their voice now. why didn't they mention it earlier? moderate muslims are actually as much the victims of extremism as other nations. even more so. it isn't that easy to speak out.

Why were the Christians afraid to speak out? Because they were in a small minority that had been physically attacked. Does that same apply to moderate Muslims or not? I can see why they are afraid to speak out if they are in the minority. On the other hand, if a majority of Muslims are moderate who are truly against terrorism, then there is no reason for them not to speak out.

The fact that terrorists are being elected to government offices in a number of Muslim nations has me doubting that the moderates are in the majority.

No Wilhelm. One starts with an argument, and musters evidence to support or refute that argument. In fact, the last book I read on the topic was Mark Sageman's Understanding Terror Networks. Empirical data, analysis, background, all that good, albeit dull and reality-based, stuff. Give it a whirl. It's not even that heavy a book.

Unfortuantely unless I develop a deep research interest in the the media and mob hysteria, I doubt I will ever read While Europe Slept. No bibliography? I might as well get my info from youtube videos then.

His clash-of-civilizations outlook means real issues often get washed
away by sweeping statements designed to tar Europe's Muslims w...

No Wilhelm. One starts with an argument, and musters evidence to support or refute that argument. In fact, the last book I read on the topic was Mark Sageman's Understanding Terror Networks. Empirical data, analysis, background, all that good, albeit dull and reality-based, stuff. Give it a whirl. It's not even that heavy a book.

Unfortuantely unless I develop a deep research interest in the the media and mob hysteria, I doubt I will ever read While Europe Slept. No bibliography? I might as well get my info from youtube videos then.

His clash-of-civilizations outlook means real issues often get washed
away by sweeping statements designed to tar Europe's Muslims with one
irredeemably hostile, welfare-sponging brush, while trading in
well-worn stereotypes about virtuous American "realists" and corrupt
European "idealists." (Publisher's Weekly, Mar.)

Sounds like standard sheep-herding fare to me.

They Call me Infidel? Apparently about a moderate Muslim who rejects terrorism and Salafism. Mirabile dictu! I don't know if I will ever read it, but I am glad you have.

@tpq62,

Sorry, didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I do disagree with you on the value of watching something like the Obsession. No, it didn't teach me anything about islam... but it did show me what (some) muslims are all about... or more accurately, confirmed yet again what I thought they were all about, except this wasn't someone describing it - it was them doing their own describing. You see, the difference between the Moore stories and Gore stories is that they're carefully crafted and presented. Obsession is nothing more than a bunch of clips taken from various speeches of various 'leaders' and simply put together. It has no storyline, just a bunch of people speaking (although 'sp...

@tpq62,

Sorry, didn't mean to hurt your feelings. I do disagree with you on the value of watching something like the Obsession. No, it didn't teach me anything about islam... but it did show me what (some) muslims are all about... or more accurately, confirmed yet again what I thought they were all about, except this wasn't someone describing it - it was them doing their own describing. You see, the difference between the Moore stories and Gore stories is that they're carefully crafted and presented. Obsession is nothing more than a bunch of clips taken from various speeches of various 'leaders' and simply put together. It has no storyline, just a bunch of people speaking (although 'speaking' isn't exactly what I'd call it). I have zero interested in learning about islam for one (of many unfortunately) simple reasons - today a muslim drove a car onto a stadium full of kids playing soccer and blew it up, killing 18 of them in the process. They claim to do these deeds in the name of their religion. With that being the case - I have no interest in a religion that doesn't condemn vehemently, louder than loud, those kinds of acts. It's as simple as that.

That's the problem. Who starts with an argument, then looks for evidence?

Scholars and scientists mainly. Otherwise how would you know what evidence to look for? Evidence is only evidence if it is evidence for or against something. Otherwise it is just noise.

Actually, you should (1) start with a blank slate at best or at least an open mind (2) study objective and biased sources (3) form an opinion. After doing those things you should be able to support your opinion with an argument.

I don't know if you should or not, but you don't.There's a dialectic between, to put it crudely, hypotheses and data. Otherwise you wouldn't know where to begin. ...

That's the problem. Who starts with an argument, then looks for evidence?

Scholars and scientists mainly. Otherwise how would you know what evidence to look for? Evidence is only evidence if it is evidence for or against something. Otherwise it is just noise.

Actually, you should (1) start with a blank slate at best or at least an open mind (2) study objective and biased sources (3) form an opinion. After doing those things you should be able to support your opinion with an argument.

I don't know if you should or not, but you don't.There's a dialectic between, to put it crudely, hypotheses and data. Otherwise you wouldn't know where to begin. The idea that you can empty yourself of understanding and experience and somehow grok the universe in its fullness is very sweet, but not real.

The problem many on the left have is their intellectual starting point, recources, and opinion are all dependent on one another.

This is just a kneejerk defensive cringe in response to challenge. FYI, much of my understanding of the relationship between Islam and terror comes from authors like Mark Sageman and David Kilcullen. Kilcullen is now
Petraeus' senior counterinsurgency advisor in Iraq. And you really have to be out to lunch to call Sageman a "leftist resource".
Look, I brought up a scholarly empirical study of Islamic terrorism, by a conservative. You gave me a shrill piece of mass-market propaganda, and then you follow out with the standard accusations of leftist bias, accusations that make no sense in this context. Willhelm, "blank slates" are all very well, but maybe they shouldn't be too blank?

We are repeatedly returning to the same point: that of the Muslims coming out and speaking against terror. Firstly, I am pretty sure that that is an unreasonable expectation. Secondly, Mulims do not have the visibility and access to the media that more affluent countries have. In India, Muslim leaders have repeatedly denounced terrorism. Muslim religious authorities have spoken out against terrorism.

I don't have a problem with the condemnation of terrorists, but the association of religious identity with political position is insipid and utterly simplistic. You are assuming a homogeneity in belief that can not exist. Not even the most advanced civilization has the kind of consensus you ar...

We are repeatedly returning to the same point: that of the Muslims coming out and speaking against terror. Firstly, I am pretty sure that that is an unreasonable expectation. Secondly, Mulims do not have the visibility and access to the media that more affluent countries have. In India, Muslim leaders have repeatedly denounced terrorism. Muslim religious authorities have spoken out against terrorism.

I don't have a problem with the condemnation of terrorists, but the association of religious identity with political position is insipid and utterly simplistic. You are assuming a homogeneity in belief that can not exist. Not even the most advanced civilization has the kind of consensus you are suggesting, nor a machine so well-coordinated as to disseminate that position completely among the masses.

By now I am quite disgusted with the political debate. There are far more serious issues to consider: poverty, illiteracy, disease: problems that i am seeing around me every day. Those goddamn terrorists can wallow in their hatred, and you guys can wallow in yours. It's tragic how easy it is to hate not only individual people, but even entire communities today. I'm hopeful though- in fact, I can say that I know you guys will be decent with a Muslim when you meet one, will not let your judgment of the community as expressed here get in the way of your personal interactions. That is more than many people can say, and it is enough for me.

Only, as a last appeal- just try and think about what your views are doing, what they are encouraginging in people less responsible than yourselves. Someone has to break the cycle. In 1947, in Kolkata, tens of thousands died in partition violence. Their grievances were personal, and extremely intense. But under the influence of Gandhi, they gave up their vendettas. These were illiterate, poor people. It is unfortunate that we, the privileged, are using civilization's tools to encourage barbaric attitudes and responses.

@dropdedman - I disagree that the muslims can't be expected nor have access. Just look back to the days of mohammed cartoons in Denmark. Remember the demonstrations, all over the world - did you see those? If you didn't - you'd be the only person on the planet. So they definitely can be heard and seen when they want to.

The reason this is associated with religion is because the terrorists that do all these acts, supposedly go by their religion and do it for their god. That's why if their religion doesn't preach zero tolerance for anyone other than strictly their approach - they need to make that known. Right now only the terrorists make it known and clearly do it for the sake of allah...

@dropdedman - I disagree that the muslims can't be expected nor have access. Just look back to the days of mohammed cartoons in Denmark. Remember the demonstrations, all over the world - did you see those? If you didn't - you'd be the only person on the planet. So they definitely can be heard and seen when they want to.

The reason this is associated with religion is because the terrorists that do all these acts, supposedly go by their religion and do it for their god. That's why if their religion doesn't preach zero tolerance for anyone other than strictly their approach - they need to make that known. Right now only the terrorists make it known and clearly do it for the sake of allah.

And it's not about hatred. It's about dealing with life, including poverty, illiteracy, disease, raising kids, being productive etc. without needing to worry about a bomb blowing up on the stadium where your kids are playing. It's not about wanting to see all muslims dead (nobody reasonable would even think that) - it's about not wanting to see a guy with a bomb vest walking into a market and pulling the cord. It's not 'hatred' as you call it.

There's no 'judgement of the community', just recital of some of the horrible deeds perpetrated daily by the members of their community. There's no denying or supporting that.

I think muslims can do themselves a huge favor by abandoning terrorism as a way to advance their agenda, or prevent Britney from poisoning their children's minds (something I totally support them in). Until they stop this useless, senseless & terrible approach - there's not going to be any sympathy for them.

@RecordSage: "I think muslims can do themselves a huge favor by abandoning terrorism as a way to advance their agenda,"

That's the only problem I have. You said:

"There's no 'judgement of the community', just recital of some of the horrible deeds perpetrated daily by the members of their community"

but from your first quote, the whole community seems to have a unified leadership that believes terrorism is the way to go. there is an implicit equation of muslims with terrorists. This is the judgement of the community.

And as for their not speaking out- i have to say i don't see why they should. they're being held accountable, or being asked to clarify their position with respect to a cri...

@RecordSage: "I think muslims can do themselves a huge favor by abandoning terrorism as a way to advance their agenda,"

That's the only problem I have. You said:

"There's no 'judgement of the community', just recital of some of the horrible deeds perpetrated daily by the members of their community"

but from your first quote, the whole community seems to have a unified leadership that believes terrorism is the way to go. there is an implicit equation of muslims with terrorists. This is the judgement of the community.

And as for their not speaking out- i have to say i don't see why they should. they're being held accountable, or being asked to clarify their position with respect to a crime they haven't committed, that they have had no role in. once again it is this equation of muslim with terror that is the problem. you are asking common muslims to prove themselves when they have nothing to do with the problem. it is an exaggerated expectation.

Scholars and scientists mainly.

First: they don't start with an opinion. They start with a hypothesis. These are 2 different things. But I can understand your confusion in this age of stupity. Then they TEST the hypothesis. They do not just look for evidence to support the hypothesis ( again, uless you are a global warming alamist).

Arguments are based on information, tests, and facts. Not the other way around..

For example, the absurdity of your defense of subjective faith over objective reality is amusing. But again, I am aware of the age we are in

This is just a kneejerk defensive cringe in response to challenge.

Actually this statement of yours...

Scholars and scientists mainly.

First: they don't start with an opinion. They start with a hypothesis. These are 2 different things. But I can understand your confusion in this age of stupity. Then they TEST the hypothesis. They do not just look for evidence to support the hypothesis ( again, uless you are a global warming alamist).

Arguments are based on information, tests, and facts. Not the other way around..

For example, the absurdity of your defense of subjective faith over objective reality is amusing. But again, I am aware of the age we are in

This is just a kneejerk defensive cringe in response to challenge.

Actually this statement of yours is the kneejerk response. My point about the left's intellectual starting point, opinion, and resource all being dependent on one another is supported by your very words and argument, as well as the words and argument almost every leftist makes because very few facts are ever used, just hyperbole, rhetoric, alarmism, attacks agains the politically incorrect and name-calling.

Actually, While Europe Slept was written be a leftist, tree-huggin, homosexual activist that hates America.

Tpq also says:

Look, I brought up a scholarly empirical study of Islamic terrorism. my understanding of the relationship between Islam and terror comes from empty understanding. In fact, the last book I read was a shrill piece of mass-market propaganda.

I'm not suprised.

@RecordSage: maybe i wasn't clear enough or you somehow missed my point. i'm talking about this muslim boy my mom teaches, he's preparing for his high school finals. i'm speaking of my friend who's pursuing his masters in political science. about his brother who just got a full scholarship (including health insurance) from Michigan U. I'm speaking of those shias and sunnis who're getting blown up for no reason. THESE PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE A ROLE IN TERRORISM. THESE PEOPLE ARE ALL MUSLIMS. HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR BOMBINGS AND ASKING THEM TO APOLOGIZE OR PROTEST TO MAKE THEIR STAND CLEAR IS AN UNFAIR EXPECTATION. (ok, sorry for raising my voice, fellas) they don't need to make their stand cl...

@RecordSage: maybe i wasn't clear enough or you somehow missed my point. i'm talking about this muslim boy my mom teaches, he's preparing for his high school finals. i'm speaking of my friend who's pursuing his masters in political science. about his brother who just got a full scholarship (including health insurance) from Michigan U. I'm speaking of those shias and sunnis who're getting blown up for no reason. THESE PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE A ROLE IN TERRORISM. THESE PEOPLE ARE ALL MUSLIMS. HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR BOMBINGS AND ASKING THEM TO APOLOGIZE OR PROTEST TO MAKE THEIR STAND CLEAR IS AN UNFAIR EXPECTATION. (ok, sorry for raising my voice, fellas) they don't need to make their stand clear any more than you need to appear on Fox every time a bombing happens to condemn it.

I think you're missing my point. I have zero problems with the muslims you're describing... if you've read some of my novels here - you'd see that I was praising the ladies that came to a Seattle area synagogue after the shooting of totally innocent women at the Seattle Jewish Federation. They didn't have to come, but they did and they stood outside and prayed when services were held for these senseless murders (by a muslim, btw). So, I only have praise for people who understand humanity and show it, regardless of their religion, politics etc.

My beef is with terrorists, unfortunately, mostly it's coming from the muslims world, regardless of the fact that a ton of muslims are decent peopl...

I think you're missing my point. I have zero problems with the muslims you're describing... if you've read some of my novels here - you'd see that I was praising the ladies that came to a Seattle area synagogue after the shooting of totally innocent women at the Seattle Jewish Federation. They didn't have to come, but they did and they stood outside and prayed when services were held for these senseless murders (by a muslim, btw). So, I only have praise for people who understand humanity and show it, regardless of their religion, politics etc.

My beef is with terrorists, unfortunately, mostly it's coming from the muslims world, regardless of the fact that a ton of muslims are decent people, simply living their lives.

And in terms of Fox showing bombings - if there aren't bombings - they won't have anything to show. Let's not take the blame from where it belongs. They simply show some of what's happening in Iraq. Don't forget that they also show good deeds our soldiers do there, in cooperation with the Iraqis.

You're absolutely correct that terrorists have caused a lot of grief... but unfortunately, when it comes to attacking US in the past 20 years - practically all of the attackers were muslims. So, even though I totally concur that not all muslims are terrorists, the terrorists that have attacked us have been muslims. You can't deny the facts.

It's not any different than it was during WWII - we know there were people like Mr. Shindler (if any don't know - what Shindler's List), not many but certainly some. That doesn't mean that it wasn't the Germans that came to the city that I was born, uninvited, killed my Grandpa in cold blood, wounded my uncle twice during the war, put my Grandma's...

You're absolutely correct that terrorists have caused a lot of grief... but unfortunately, when it comes to attacking US in the past 20 years - practically all of the attackers were muslims. So, even though I totally concur that not all muslims are terrorists, the terrorists that have attacked us have been muslims. You can't deny the facts.

It's not any different than it was during WWII - we know there were people like Mr. Shindler (if any don't know - what Shindler's List), not many but certainly some. That doesn't mean that it wasn't the Germans that came to the city that I was born, uninvited, killed my Grandpa in cold blood, wounded my uncle twice during the war, put my Grandma's brother in concentration camps 13 times, barely escaping several times from being executed etc.

I hope you see my point here.

There were a lot of discussion about the fact that muslims do oppose terrorism and terrorists etc. I beg to differ after watching a movie like the Obsession. The comments were made that just because they don't march on the streets en masse with Fox coverage of those marches being shown at least half as much as Anna Nicole non-sense - that doesn't mean they support terrorism. But look at it this way - where do these terrorists come from? When someone builds an IED at some house and then goes out and plants it on the road somewhere - how exactly does that occur? Do these people materialize out of thin air and within a microsecond disappear with the bomb in place? Or do they reside in the neighborhoods of Baghdad and originate from these muslim communities that so oppose these actions? My question is, provided that they do originate or reside in those communities - why are these people allowed to function and do their deeds by those neighbors? Again, I'm sure some aren't, but a lot are.