Be careful. One thing I've learned lately is that the "Christians" we see on TV saying stupid things are not the everyday average Christians that make up the majority. There are even a few Christians that lean to the left (who knew).
Some Christians are dedicated to curing the sick and
injured, feeding the hungry, and helping people find fulfillment
compatible with their nature and the well-being of others.
However, there is a second type of “Christian” – a Christian of the
Second Order. This type of Christian stands in defense of death and
sickness by blocking the medical research that could find a cure for
these ailments. Their “beliefs without evidence” condemn hundreds of
millions of pe...

Be careful. One thing I've learned lately is that the "Christians" we see on TV saying stupid things are not the everyday average Christians that make up the majority. There are even a few Christians that lean to the left (who knew).
Some Christians are dedicated to curing the sick and
injured, feeding the hungry, and helping people find fulfillment
compatible with their nature and the well-being of others.
However, there is a second type of “Christian” – a Christian of the
Second Order. This type of Christian stands in defense of death and
sickness by blocking the medical research that could find a cure for
these ailments. Their “beliefs without evidence” condemn hundreds of
millions of people to suffering and death because they have decided to
claim that a 150-cell blastocyst has a soul. They use this same
superstition to claim the right to empower the state to take control of
the bodies of women and treat them as government property. The teach
hatred of science and reason when science and reason provide the
necessary tools for curing the sick and injured, feeding the hungry,
and helping people to live more fulfilling lives.

These Second Order Christians subject young homosexuals to emotional
abuse severe enough to drive many of them to suicide – which these
Christians have no reason to be concerned about since their Bible says
that homosexuals should be put to death anyway. It is, at least, legal to drive them to suicide.

These Second Order Christians promote conflict in various parts of
the world in order to fulfill biblical prophecy, and neglect the
long-term well-being of Earth and humanity because they believe we have
no long-term interests. The Rapture will happen any day now.
When Christianity turns into a tool for doing harm to others, then any
caring person has no obligation but to take stand up for those who
would be harmed.


I wish I could claim this as my own, but I stole it from here.

laceym, as usual, I absolutely have to agree. "Goodness," can wear an amazing mask, can it not? "Goodness" by whose standards? Gods? I think not.

Callous lack of compassion does not have to show itself in outright obvious murderous gestures or murder itself, nor in supporting things that are so blatantly and obviously evil, as to be objected to by most all that would see. Sometimes is it disguised as other seemingly more innocuous things (not that harming others could ever be considered "innocuous"), but those things when looked at more carefully, though appearing a bit less vile outwardly, still have the ultimate goal of inflicting hurt, sorrow, injury, and control on others.

It is ...

laceym, as usual, I absolutely have to agree. "Goodness," can wear an amazing mask, can it not? "Goodness" by whose standards? Gods? I think not.

Callous lack of compassion does not have to show itself in outright obvious murderous gestures or murder itself, nor in supporting things that are so blatantly and obviously evil, as to be objected to by most all that would see. Sometimes is it disguised as other seemingly more innocuous things (not that harming others could ever be considered "innocuous"), but those things when looked at more carefully, though appearing a bit less vile outwardly, still have the ultimate goal of inflicting hurt, sorrow, injury, and control on others.

It is "another gospel" that has little or nothing to do with the teachings of Christ, Himself.

Christians are *NO* different. But their GOD is different. Well, He's the only God, but well that's beside the point.

Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Hindus, whatever... they are all *sinners.* They behave badly on a regular basis.

Not all Muslims want to chop off your head unless you convert. Not all Christians want to humiliate you.

It does seem though that TRUE Muslims do want to chop off your head, but TRUE Christians would rather pray for you and show you the love of Christ.

This is why "generally speaking" if you offend the Muslims, there will be riots, where if you offend the Christians there wont be. Because, in the end, the entire pervasive "being" of the two gro...

Christians are *NO* different. But their GOD is different. Well, He's the only God, but well that's beside the point.

Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, Hindus, whatever... they are all *sinners.* They behave badly on a regular basis.

Not all Muslims want to chop off your head unless you convert. Not all Christians want to humiliate you.

It does seem though that TRUE Muslims do want to chop off your head, but TRUE Christians would rather pray for you and show you the love of Christ.

This is why "generally speaking" if you offend the Muslims, there will be riots, where if you offend the Christians there wont be. Because, in the end, the entire pervasive "being" of the two groups is very, very different.

And if you can't see that. I say you're full of *&t.

There are even a few Christians that lean to the left (who knew).

Kcgirl,
You are speaking about the religious right. I've been Catholic my whole life yet it was suggested to me in our last election that I couldn't step into my own church anymore--without first taking a loyalty oath to the Republican Party. Apparently, according to our local bishop my "grevious sin" would have willingly voting for John Kerry. Lord help me, I'd do it again.

In the end, for a person of faith, we don't lose sight of the big picture, which is -- God loves all of his creation. You can't please God by refusing to love some of His children, just becaue they're different than yo...

There are even a few Christians that lean to the left (who knew).

Kcgirl,
You are speaking about the religious right. I've been Catholic my whole life yet it was suggested to me in our last election that I couldn't step into my own church anymore--without first taking a loyalty oath to the Republican Party. Apparently, according to our local bishop my "grevious sin" would have willingly voting for John Kerry. Lord help me, I'd do it again.

In the end, for a person of faith, we don't lose sight of the big picture, which is -- God loves all of his creation. You can't please God by refusing to love some of His children, just becaue they're different than you, and any person of faith who does so is just kidding him or herself. And any church that does so is doomed to fail.

One more time let me return to the wisdom of Bishop John Shelby Sprong:

A church that calls itself the body of Christ cannot reject or oppress or define pejoratively one who is the recipient of the overwhelming love of God. To do so is to so is to deny Christ. It is to play church. When that occurs, the marks of death are seen in that institution. Those marks are present when the refusal to upset the religious folk becomes a higher priority for the church than the search for truth or the demand for justice. Those marks are present when the church bends to accommodate the racists without hearing the cries of the rejected victims of racism. They are present when the church...

One more time let me return to the wisdom of Bishop John Shelby Sprong:

A church that calls itself the body of Christ cannot reject or oppress or define pejoratively one who is the recipient of the overwhelming love of God. To do so is to so is to deny Christ. It is to play church. When that occurs, the marks of death are seen in that institution. Those marks are present when the refusal to upset the religious folk becomes a higher priority for the church than the search for truth or the demand for justice. Those marks are present when the church bends to accommodate the racists without hearing the cries of the rejected victims of racism. They are present when the church compromises its truth in order to accommodate those whose sexism refuses to allow women access to ecclesiastical positions of power without hearing the pain in the generations of women who have been defined as auxilliary to the church. The marks of death are present when the church rejects lesbian and gay persons because they do not fit the narrow homophobic definition of "normal" humanity and do not hear the pain of the oppressed and rejected homosexual community . These are the signs that death awaits the Christ experience.

Well Debby, that all sounds great, but I'd rather simply say that a Christian church should follow the Christian Bible, and leave it at that.

And what does the Bishop mean when he speaks of "rejecting gay and lesbian persons" anyway? Rejecting them as in "you can't come to our church?" I'd agree - that is completely the opposite of what our Lord has told us to do.

But many people speak that way to describe something else completely. Telling a gay person they are a sinner - is that rejecting them? I say no. Just like telling a liar he is a sinner isn't rejecting him.

You come to church to learn about God. In God's mind, there is the concept of "sin." Once you love the Lord, you fin...

Well Debby, that all sounds great, but I'd rather simply say that a Christian church should follow the Christian Bible, and leave it at that.

And what does the Bishop mean when he speaks of "rejecting gay and lesbian persons" anyway? Rejecting them as in "you can't come to our church?" I'd agree - that is completely the opposite of what our Lord has told us to do.

But many people speak that way to describe something else completely. Telling a gay person they are a sinner - is that rejecting them? I say no. Just like telling a liar he is a sinner isn't rejecting him.

You come to church to learn about God. In God's mind, there is the concept of "sin." Once you love the Lord, you find yourself trying to get rid of sin in your life.

If my pastor preaches the Word of God, and it says that there is sin in my life, he isn't rejecting me, or kicking me out of the church. He's doing his job.

Homosexuals want to come into churches and disrupt church
service and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit
in the face of ministers.
Reverend Pat Robertson

It means not saying or believing things like above quote Travis. It means understanding that the sin of your sister Sodom was that she and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; and they did not help the needy and the poor. It means understanding that in all his public denunciations Jesus Christ never once mentioned homosexuality. It means that "faith" is an openness to goodness in the world. It means as...

Homosexuals want to come into churches and disrupt church
service and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit
in the face of ministers.
Reverend Pat Robertson

It means not saying or believing things like above quote Travis. It means understanding that the sin of your sister Sodom was that she and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; and they did not help the needy and the poor. It means understanding that in all his public denunciations Jesus Christ never once mentioned homosexuality. It means that "faith" is an openness to goodness in the world. It means asking yourself whether you really believe that God is the kind of God that Jesus suggests, a God who is willing to forgive anyone who gives the slightest hint of signing on for the Kingdom of heaven, a God who by the standards of human rulers is an easygoing buffoon, a God who expects you to model his forgiveness by forgiving others. A God who, for some god-forsaken reason, is crazy in love with you, and me, and kcgirlgeek and all of us. Make no mistake about it Travis, those who are not willing to trust people with the good news often seem to have the decisive advantage. We must for force people to behave properly or there will be a complete moral collaspe, right? One must simply say to them that they are wrong. Fear of the Lord is not the beginning of wisdom for them; it is also the end.

TRUE Muslims do want to chop off your head... (travis)
Travis, what is your resource for saying THIS?! I mean, have you studied the Qur'an? I doubt that TRUE Muslims really care at all about your head, but I could be wrong, I'm not qualified to say, as I've not studied the Muslim holy book.

The bottom line is, bad people use religion as their excuse to continue bad behavior. (wiccan) I couldn't agree more. It's kind of like the argument about violent video games. If the kid doesn't have issues already, the games aren't going to make him pull a "Columbine."

I couldn't step into my own church anymore--without first taking a loyalty oath to the Republican Party. (debby) OMG....can yo...

TRUE Muslims do want to chop off your head... (travis)
Travis, what is your resource for saying THIS?! I mean, have you studied the Qur'an? I doubt that TRUE Muslims really care at all about your head, but I could be wrong, I'm not qualified to say, as I've not studied the Muslim holy book.

The bottom line is, bad people use religion as their excuse to continue bad behavior. (wiccan) I couldn't agree more. It's kind of like the argument about violent video games. If the kid doesn't have issues already, the games aren't going to make him pull a "Columbine."

I couldn't step into my own church anymore--without first taking a loyalty oath to the Republican Party. (debby) OMG....can you say messed up?! I would say the same thing if you'd have said Democratic Party there.

Well Debby, that all sounds great, but I'd rather simply say that a Christian church should follow the Christian Bible, and leave it at that. (travis) The "Christian Bible?" I think those that are Jewish would argue with you about calling it that, but okay. Christian implies following the teachings of CHRIST. I think a lot of "Christians" are actually "Paulites," often putting WAY more emphasis on the letters by Paul or other disciples written to specific churches of the day and in response to specific issues within THOSE churches.

Telling a gay person they are a sinner - is that rejecting them? I say no. Just like telling a liar he is a sinner isn't rejecting him. (travis) While it may (or may not) be rejecting them (depends on how you treat them apart from your proclamation that they are a "sinner")

I think it is pretty judgemental and self-righteous to go about labeling others as "sinners" and presuming oneself BETTER than others since THEY are sinners. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (I think you know the address of that scripture.)

All of mankind needs enlightenment on our shortcomings (or "sins," if you'd rather). Christians do not fall outside of

Bare with me, those that do not share faith in the man, Christ Jesus. You will likely disagree with some of what I say here, but I still love you!

"Jesus said He came for the sinner, the sick, the weak, the broken and the rejects of society..."

Yes, and He had/has great compassion for the broken. If only the majority of those sitting in churches (of all denominations) reflected the same amount of compassion toward society, as broken, sick, and weak as it is....I believe it would elicit the same passion for Jesus that Mary of Magdalene had. I'm not talking having fund raisers and donating to charities. I'm talking about face to face compassion for your next door neighbor...you know, t...

Bare with me, those that do not share faith in the man, Christ Jesus. You will likely disagree with some of what I say here, but I still love you!

"Jesus said He came for the sinner, the sick, the weak, the broken and the rejects of society..."

Yes, and He had/has great compassion for the broken. If only the majority of those sitting in churches (of all denominations) reflected the same amount of compassion toward society, as broken, sick, and weak as it is....I believe it would elicit the same passion for Jesus that Mary of Magdalene had. I'm not talking having fund raisers and donating to charities. I'm talking about face to face compassion for your next door neighbor...you know, the one that lives so in opposition to YOUR beliefs.

Do we not have to extend grace with the same measure to which it has been extended to us?

There is a Christian singer named, Rita Springer, that sings a song that is such a beautiful display of having passion for Christ Jesus, it's called Fragrant Offering. There is also a song called Magnificent Obsession by JoAnn McFatter, that reflects the same sort of passion for Jesus. THIS is what I think the Church of today has lost....the HEART of the Father.

People do not come to Christ because of believers preaching doctrine and exalting themselves to some place of superiority over them...and they do not continue to walk with Him because of doctrine...NOT for long, anyway, I know this from experience, I'm not talking smack here. They are drawn when they know in the deepest part of their being, His amazing and great LOVE, His passion for them.

"Our collective mistake as Christians is in not reminding ourselves from which gutter we've crawled ..."

Yes. And although I know that a lot of my posts seem very harsh to the fundamental believers way of thinking and more their "behaving"....that sums up perfectly one point I am trying to make. The fundamentalist that is shaking his finger at the rest of us and saying how they "hate th

they "hate the sin but 'love' the sinner," is so quick to point out another's sin, and state of brokeness, yet you rarely hear them speak of their OWN. We are saved by grace, which means UNMERITED favor and mercy. Unmerited. We didn't earn it. So we have no room for self-righteousness.

If you would read my blog, you would have more understanding of where I'm coming from. The Spirit of God continues to work on us ALL. I am not Junior Holy Spirit. I have no right to run about trying to change people. That's not my job as a Christian. Instead of reveling in our imagined superiority, perhaps we would affect real change for GOOD in society if we humbled ourselves and admitted our OWN la...

they "hate the sin but 'love' the sinner," is so quick to point out another's sin, and state of brokeness, yet you rarely hear them speak of their OWN. We are saved by grace, which means UNMERITED favor and mercy. Unmerited. We didn't earn it. So we have no room for self-righteousness.

If you would read my blog, you would have more understanding of where I'm coming from. The Spirit of God continues to work on us ALL. I am not Junior Holy Spirit. I have no right to run about trying to change people. That's not my job as a Christian. Instead of reveling in our imagined superiority, perhaps we would affect real change for GOOD in society if we humbled ourselves and admitted our OWN lack.

Most fundamentalists have NO idea how quickly they can destroy someone with their words and actions. They are often the very thing that drives people AWAY from the God they profess, becoming a tool of the very evil they stand against.

michellezm - nicely put!

as for the whole "rejection" thing... let me try to be absolutely clear here, without any of my normal sarcasm or attempts at humor....

A true Christian church does not reject people. It may reject practices. It may reject behavior while in/at the church location. But a Christian church's whole mission is to REACH OUT to the rest of the world. And to be glad when they come in, as it probably means that God is working in their hearts or lives.

Just yesterday, on Easter Sunday, at our family dinner, I had to punish my older son, sending him to his room for a few minutes. No one who has any clue about us would say that I rejected him. I rejected his behavior. ...

michellezm - nicely put!

as for the whole "rejection" thing... let me try to be absolutely clear here, without any of my normal sarcasm or attempts at humor....

A true Christian church does not reject people. It may reject practices. It may reject behavior while in/at the church location. But a Christian church's whole mission is to REACH OUT to the rest of the world. And to be glad when they come in, as it probably means that God is working in their hearts or lives.

Just yesterday, on Easter Sunday, at our family dinner, I had to punish my older son, sending him to his room for a few minutes. No one who has any clue about us would say that I rejected him. I rejected his behavior. 5 minutes later he was back at the table stealing bread rolls from my plate.

God rejects sin. He cannot tolerate it. That doesn't mean He rejects us, the sinners. The Bible says He loves us even more than I love my sons. That is the hardest verse to believe in the whole Bible

Yes, Debby, you got it.

And while I agree with much that the fundamentalists say and believe, I certainly cannot say that I agree with ALL of what they say or believe.

My experience with God, like most everyone's, is unique to ME. Maybe I'm more mature in my faith, maybe I'm less mature in my faith....that I don't know. (And it really doesn't matter...I'm right where I should be right NOW.) All I know is my own experience of His love. And along with that, I've experienced some very NON-loving things from His kids, but you know what? I don't blame HIM for the behavior of His children. And I know that I am always growing, that there is always room for improvement within.

I also can st...

Yes, Debby, you got it.

And while I agree with much that the fundamentalists say and believe, I certainly cannot say that I agree with ALL of what they say or believe.

My experience with God, like most everyone's, is unique to ME. Maybe I'm more mature in my faith, maybe I'm less mature in my faith....that I don't know. (And it really doesn't matter...I'm right where I should be right NOW.) All I know is my own experience of His love. And along with that, I've experienced some very NON-loving things from His kids, but you know what? I don't blame HIM for the behavior of His children. And I know that I am always growing, that there is always room for improvement within.

I also can stand eye to eye with my atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Taoist, Islamic, brothers and sisters (and any other faith or non-faith I left out), and say with the utmost of confidence, that I believe God loves them and does not wish for me to be cruel to them. And I can, with true humility (I hope), listen to them and really try to HEAR them without feeling threatened and without being threatening.

I am open to examining their beliefs (or NON-beliefs) quietly on my own and not being closed to any revelation that comes from God. And I will examine the fruits of their lives and what they say. A good tree bears good fruit.

Discernment is a good thing to have. And all of the talking in the world cannot convince me of the "rightness" of something if my spirit does not bear witness with it. But that certainly doesn't mean I'm going to run around so utterly convinced of my own "rightness" that there is no room for God to incite changes in me. If I'm not changing, I'm probably not growing.

I apologize for sounding "preachy," it's pretty hard not to when you talk about ANYthing that you have strong feelings about. I sound preachy when I talk about my kids and my hobbies too. Sometimes passion for something just comes across "preachy," when it isn't the INTENTION to preach.

All I know is my own experience of His love

How wonderful! Again, the same refrain, that I believe God's justice is not our justice. God's mercy far exceeds our mercy, and if human judges were as lenient as God is, well, they probably would be considered criminally insane.
On my searches for understanding the stories of Jesus comes the realization that he is deliberately elusive, mysterious, enigmatic, and paradoxical. Hence, I will never finish my search. I will never understand him. When I think I can quote him in support of my own side in any argument, then I realize the Jesus I have shaped to fit my ideas, my needs, and my fears, is out of there. I like...

All I know is my own experience of His love

How wonderful! Again, the same refrain, that I believe God's justice is not our justice. God's mercy far exceeds our mercy, and if human judges were as lenient as God is, well, they probably would be considered criminally insane.
On my searches for understanding the stories of Jesus comes the realization that he is deliberately elusive, mysterious, enigmatic, and paradoxical. Hence, I will never finish my search. I will never understand him. When I think I can quote him in support of my own side in any argument, then I realize the Jesus I have shaped to fit my ideas, my needs, and my fears, is out of there. I like to grant Him permission to surprise me endlessly; not that he needs my permission. He surprises me without it.

Sometimes passion for something just comes across "preachy," when it isn't the INTENTION to preach.

I plead guilty, Kcgirl, 100 percent guilty.