for all others who still choose to enlist and who still choose to pick up arms against innocent people and to knowingly aid in the occupation and devastation of an innocent sovereign nation ...then no. They get no sympathy from me.

I hear you, TN, but there's more to the story than that.

My cousin's husband is a felon (multiple moving violations - seriously). He had trouble finding a job. He can't afford to back to school (he was studying engineering). He can't get a driver's license. He joined the military about 2 years ago because he saw it as his only chance to "normalize" his status, get a license again, and get his degree. He's done one tour in Afghanistan.

Dmegi...

for all others who still choose to enlist and who still choose to pick up arms against innocent people and to knowingly aid in the occupation and devastation of an innocent sovereign nation ...then no. They get no sympathy from me.

I hear you, TN, but there's more to the story than that.

My cousin's husband is a felon (multiple moving violations - seriously). He had trouble finding a job. He can't afford to back to school (he was studying engineering). He can't get a driver's license. He joined the military about 2 years ago because he saw it as his only chance to "normalize" his status, get a license again, and get his degree. He's done one tour in Afghanistan.

Dmegivern's youngest brother (who she raised from the age of 13), just enlisted last month because he can't afford health insurance for his 2 small children; he has a job, but the pay is too low, and the benefits too expensive for him to support his young family. He and his wife are hoping to use his signing bonus to pay down their hospital debt from the birth of their son. He leaves for Fort Knox next week.

Unlike the social democracies of Europe, in the US we don't have a social safety net. Health care is expensive. Education is expensive. I'm not arguing it's a good thing, but it is a real thing in the United States that kids from the working class, and people with "difficult" histories, join the military because they can - it's a way, they hope, out of poverty, a way to get an education, a way to get health insurance for their families.

I understand dulios. I've been thinking a lot about this since I clipped it. I realize, and it's so heartbreaking, that poverty can force people to have to make the choice to join, simply to survive themselves! It's grotesque! In such a rich country! Anyway, I think the keyword is forced. They're just as much victims themselves. (Of politics or injustice.) I cannot even imagine, what it must be like to be forced to go to war or how they must feel or what it does to them.

I sometimes get so frustrated for the wars to end, and to get the soldiers to not participate at all, is one of the few options I see left these days. The people don't seem to want to end the wars. Neither do the politic...

I understand dulios. I've been thinking a lot about this since I clipped it. I realize, and it's so heartbreaking, that poverty can force people to have to make the choice to join, simply to survive themselves! It's grotesque! In such a rich country! Anyway, I think the keyword is forced. They're just as much victims themselves. (Of politics or injustice.) I cannot even imagine, what it must be like to be forced to go to war or how they must feel or what it does to them.

I sometimes get so frustrated for the wars to end, and to get the soldiers to not participate at all, is one of the few options I see left these days. The people don't seem to want to end the wars. Neither do the politicians. Only thing left is to plead the military. If they would just not go along with kill innocent people.

The military need to be de-glorified. For people to not buy into the whole "hero" myth and to quit perpetuating it. It's not heroic, it's tragic. Or to at least not go to war for some ill-defined "patriotic" reasons or for "my country, right or wrong." especially when they're wrong. There are lots people who join for those reasons. To serve their country or to be or feel "patriotic" If we could get people to question those motivations, and to let it be honorable for conscience to override "patriotism" ... without being labelled that "they hate they're country".

It should be more honorable to not go to war, than to do so.

I understand and share your frustration, TN. I feel the same way you do - what if they threw a war and no one showed up?, as the saying goes. There are people I love, both family and friends, who have broken by war, both as combatants or civilians. I hate war. I Hate Hate Hate it.

What most infuriates me is good people brainwashed into fighting for god and country, when what the fight is really about is making the rich richer and solidifying power for the ruling classes. Marx was right when he said that all wars are about controlling land and resources. The Crusades weren't a damn holy war! The Crusades were about controlling the trade routes from Asia to Europe. Period. That's w...

I understand and share your frustration, TN. I feel the same way you do - what if they threw a war and no one showed up?, as the saying goes. There are people I love, both family and friends, who have broken by war, both as combatants or civilians. I hate war. I Hate Hate Hate it.

What most infuriates me is good people brainwashed into fighting for god and country, when what the fight is really about is making the rich richer and solidifying power for the ruling classes. Marx was right when he said that all wars are about controlling land and resources. The Crusades weren't a damn holy war! The Crusades were about controlling the trade routes from Asia to Europe. Period. That's what they were about. But the common man isn't going to go to war to control trade passages. So he has to be convinced there's a different reason - we must liberate the Holy Land from the infidel!

My brother-in-law is a police officer and member of the National Guard. When he got called to Iraq, I begged him not to go - it's an illegal war, it's madness, go to jail, go to Canada, just don't go to Iraq! - but he said it was his duty, not to his country, but to his fellow soldiers. How could he stay home while his brother went? He served one tour. He says now that he'll never go back, no matter what. He'll go to jail, but he won't go back to Iraq. His unit has been recalled yet, so we'll see what the future holds.

[quote}he has a job, but the pay is too low, and the benefits too expensive for him to support his young family. Here's how I see it; (as a European)

Imagine a race. 8 folks lined up at the start. At the 100 yard mark, is a huge triple-layers chocolate cake, waiting for the winner. Off goes the race and in a mad dash, the folks run as fast as they can, elbowing each other and tripping their running mates, running themselves ragged, to be the first across the finish line. The winner takes it all. Spends his time guarding and hiding his cake, and so it won't be taken away from him. He won the race. It's HIS cake.

That's America and the cake is wealth.

Now imagine a race, where all ...

[quote}he has a job, but the pay is too low, and the benefits too expensive for him to support his young family. Here's how I see it; (as a European)

Imagine a race. 8 folks lined up at the start. At the 100 yard mark, is a huge triple-layers chocolate cake, waiting for the winner. Off goes the race and in a mad dash, the folks run as fast as they can, elbowing each other and tripping their running mates, running themselves ragged, to be the first across the finish line. The winner takes it all. Spends his time guarding and hiding his cake, and so it won't be taken away from him. He won the race. It's HIS cake.

That's America and the cake is wealth.

Now imagine a race, where all 8 folks figure out; "Hey, let's just take it easy, enjoy the view, whistle a tune and walk together across the finish line and we'll share." If someone trips along the way, we give him a hand till he's on his feet again and off we go. At the finish line, there's more than enough for everyone.

That's Europe.

Is America in general too proud to look to other nations and see how they deal with healthcare etc? I sometimes get that impression. Often, when I try to explain that things could be so much different if healthcare wasn't a for-profit enterprize, then people holler communism! Socialism! And heaven's know's what else. A fear driven response and it's so silly!! I mean com'on! If people would just look! Do we look like communists? Hahaha! We're more democratic and free and have more rights and privileges than America has, for heaven's sake. It's so frustrating!

When people work and still do not have enough money to keep themselves healthy and to support themselves, then something is fundamenta...

Is America in general too proud to look to other nations and see how they deal with healthcare etc? I sometimes get that impression. Often, when I try to explain that things could be so much different if healthcare wasn't a for-profit enterprize, then people holler communism! Socialism! And heaven's know's what else. A fear driven response and it's so silly!! I mean com'on! If people would just look! Do we look like communists? Hahaha! We're more democratic and free and have more rights and privileges than America has, for heaven's sake. It's so frustrating!

When people work and still do not have enough money to keep themselves healthy and to support themselves, then something is fundamentally wrong with the way things are being done. If only I could convince people that socialised medicine is not a bad thing. Just like libraries, the fire department and the police aren't for-profit (can you imagine?? *shudder*) then neither should healthcare be! How hard can it be for people to see that? Why does America accept greedy middlemen between them and their doctor? Would they accept if only the burning mansions of the rich got put out, while others people's houses were allowed to burn to the ground, because they aren't insured?? Would they?

I hear anti-UHC politicians try to scare people by posing the question, "do you want a government bureaucrat to come between you and your doctor?" That can't possibly be any worse than a corporate bureaucrat occupying the same position. At least the government man doesn't always have to bow to the pressure of cutting costs no matter what harm it does to patients.

It's not always easy to love your country, especially when so many are having a hard time when it's not necessary, and even harder to have any respect for your government when leaders make the same wrong choices over and over again. It's also hard to respect one's fellow citizens when they keep returning the same packs of jokers...

I hear anti-UHC politicians try to scare people by posing the question, "do you want a government bureaucrat to come between you and your doctor?" That can't possibly be any worse than a corporate bureaucrat occupying the same position. At least the government man doesn't always have to bow to the pressure of cutting costs no matter what harm it does to patients.

It's not always easy to love your country, especially when so many are having a hard time when it's not necessary, and even harder to have any respect for your government when leaders make the same wrong choices over and over again. It's also hard to respect one's fellow citizens when they keep returning the same packs of jokers to office. thisname, I love your analogy. Here's one of my favorite quotes on the topic:

“I don't believe in 'My country right or wrong'. My country wrong needs my help.”

— Peter Halsten Thorkelson