Maybe this is why so few people participate on the web and why that such a relatively large percent that do insult and attack other participants. It is a stress reaction that kicks up a fight-or-flight response. I try to remember most of those doing the insulting are expressing their own background of verbal abuse and fear. Try to let it slide off your back like water on a duck. That's good karma.

Can't agree more.

I read this article myself this morning and found it to be interesting. Glad to see that you clipped it.

Unless we're talking about the way we speak to children, or the mentally retarded, this is absolute rubbish. Whatever happened to one of the most primary and important lessons taught by parents at early age of their children? namely, Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me.

Wussification is rampant.

I fully expect my preceding comment to be taken as an endorsement and promotion of being intentionally insulting.

GD, tongue is the worst of all ammunition when it comes to hurting someone, I think it is written in all the scriptures. I don't know what you're talking about above, but we have to have a strong mechanism to guard ourselves from the hurt, but a little compassion goes further for those on the receptive end who are unable to guard themselves, after all we are all humans.

In an emotionally healthy and mature person, the only hurt that should ever result from words, is revelatory truth--in my experience, a wonderful pain.

In an emotionally healthy and mature person, the only hurt that should ever result from words, is revelatory truth--in my experience, a wonderful pain.{/quote]
I absolutely agree and maybe your comment can be a revelatory truth catalyst for someone out there GD (and maybe this is a good time for me to stop and think about myself). But 1) Not everyone has achieved that state of personal being 2) of those who have most likely cannot/do not maintain that state at all times, and 3) an emotionally healthy and mature person has a responsibility to realize and understand points 1 & 2 and act accordingly.

Too bad we cant edit comments...

In an emotionally healthy and mature person, the only hurt that should ever result from words, is revelatory truth--in my experience, a wonderful pain.

I absolutely agree and maybe your comment can be a revelatory truth catalyst for someone out there GD (and maybe this is a good time for me to stop and think about myself). But 1) Not everyone has achieved that state of personal being 2) of those who have most likely cannot/do not maintain that state at all times, and 3) an emotionally healthy and mature person has a responsibility to realize and understand points 1 & 2 and act accordingly.

GD, while I agree with you with regard to occasional insults, the harm inflicted by ongoing verbal abuse (which is what this article is really about) can be quite devastating. A perfectly healthy person can indeed be beaten down and harmed by continued disparagement.

An emotionally healthy and mature person is one who has understanding and empathy for others and, therefore, should know better than to resort to insults and the tearing down of others.

1) Not everyone has achieved that state of personal being

Of course, but catering to weakness only furthers weakness and lessens the likelihood of the achievement of that desired state.

An emotionally healthy and mature person is one who has understanding and empathy for others and, therefore, should know better than to resort to insults and the tearing down of others.

I agree completely.

Guess what, the world is not perfect so have some compassion for those who have not been able to make it, while you go on with your perfect life.

This is a very common fallacy. Conservative views are not dependent on, nor do they derive from, success. They are, however, very helpful in achieving it, be it financial or otherwise.

Another common fallacy is that talk radio is some kind of progenitor of conservatism. On the contrary, its success is a reflection of the inherent commonsense in large numbers of the American people.

GD, how would you suggest we treat those who are already weak? What do you think would really help them to improve?

I try to remember most of those doing the insulting are expressing their own background of verbal abuse and fear. Try to let it slide off our back like water on a duck. That's good karma.

Good advice kmcolo.

By getting them to notice that they have all the power. That they are the creators of their weakness through their allowing others to control them through their emotional reactions, and that they therefore equally have the ability to create, or discover, their strength.

1) Not everyone has achieved that state of personal being

Of course, but catering to weakness only furthers weakness and lessens the likelihood of the achievement of that desired state.

There is a "sweet spot" or a tipping point to be found here. Sure you don't want to enable but at the same time with the wrong person and wrong time you can also prevent growth. So whether you are "catering to weakness" (overtones of social Darwinism) or preventing further harm is dependent on the situation.

By getting them to notice that they have all the power. That they are the creators of their weakness through their allowing others to control them through their emotional reactions, and that they therefore equally have the ability to create, or discover, their strength.

Beautifully put GD.

Thank you.

So whether you are "catering to weakness" (overtones of social Darwinism) or preventing further harm is dependent on the situation.

Yes, and a bit of wisdom.

Nicely put, GD. How do you see the article as "catering to weakness" though?

So whether you are "catering to weakness" (overtones of social Darwinism) or preventing further harm is dependent on the situation.

Yes, and a bit of wisdom.

Ah yes, that part which is art. Agreed.

Darcy, in general, I find dismaying the current emphasis on victimhood sans focus and interest on empowering persons who identify as such. One of the hard truths that are avoided in PC culture is the nature of the cooperative participation--albeit often subconscious--of the so-called victim with the victimizer. Especially so when we are talking about non-physical negative interaction.

This is the kind of discussion I find fascinating, but I have flat run out of time. Got to go.

GD, I agree with you that the victimhood culture is a problem. How to empower people while not belittling what they feel is a difficult question to address. Any ideas out there?

Quick answer... one of the greatest things I've learned from my Uncle and deeply from meditation, is that, in terms of identity, I am not my emotions, and I am not my thoughts.
Once one understands this, it's pretty much all downhill (in the positive sense) from there.

later

Great thoughts and great to convey them here. How though to apply them in a larger context (society)? And how also to take into consideration the varying degrees of victimhood (say, someone who has been victimized which leads to psychic trouble) Telling them it is all in their head, although true (as is everything) wont break what I assume to be the subconscious cycle.

More meditation...

I'm afraid that I don't understand the idea that one's thoughts and emotions are not part of one's identity. How does one define "identity" then?

I'm not trying to argue. I'm trying to understand.

"A hurtful act is the transference to others of the degradation which they bear in themselves." - Simone Weil

Cogito ergo sum
"I think, therefore I am" - Descartes

To paraphrase both Eleanor Roosevelt and Gloria Steinem (GD, did you realize that you shared this philosophy with them?) ...

Between and action and a reaction, you have a choice.

"It is almost a definition of a gentleman to say, that he is one who never inflicts pain." - John Henry Newman.

Can anybody tell that I'm a total quote freak? They say the things I want to say, that otherwise would take me pages to express.

"It is almost a definition of a gentleman to say, that he is one who never inflicts pain." - John Henry Newman.

But that leaves out the benefits of "tough love" which I believe are true. As long as that, which might lead to emotional pain of a certain (non-destructive) type, is constructively implemented.

Hmm..I agree. But I define "tough love" differently. Not as being painful from the outside, something inficted by others so to speak, but something that the one receiving the tough love percieves as being self-inflicted. Bad conscience, guilt etc... A sense of uncomfort rather than pain or hurt, caused by self reflection, not anguish fear or abuse. That's about the best I can do to descibe what I mean. Pain shouldn't be a part of "tough love" Can't think of a quote that will fit to explain, but I hope you know what I mean.

Even tough love can and should be administered with compassion and love. The crushing of anothers self esteem or self worth serves no purpose.

Yes I think I know what you mean.

There was an interesting research finding. People tend to believe reports that substantiate their world view (the framework or template they use to make sense of the world). They discount (ignore) those pieces of information that conflict with that world view. People who are forced to accept (by circumstances etc) information that does not fit their world view have pain reactions. Like they are actually in pain. Thus I see the action of restructuring a persons world view (done so for their empowerment and growth) as having an aspect of pain. Not destructive and not physical but a form of pain none-the-less.

True!

The important part of your comment being "non-destructive". I still think insults and belittling serve no purpose other than destructive ones. That sort of pain is needless.

I still think insults and belittling serve no purpose other than destructive ones. That sort of pain is needless.

100% agree. You don't do any benefit for anyone with insults and belittling. None the less there are people who do that and the best action if it happens to you is remember that they are broadcasting their history and it has nothing to do with you.

I know...
But it's easier said than done sometimes. Self defense if a part of human nature I suppose, especially when the attacks seem neverending or totally unjustified. But you live, you learn and I'm learning a little more every day

Can I offer a little tough love? If you are experiencing a lot of this in your life, you are likely bringing it upon yourself.

No, not a lot. Hardly ever actually. I'm pretty much a happy person and so are the people around me. Nice and friendly and so on. It's mostly just I experience certain places I frequent online

Should read: It's mostly just something I experience

Rather presumptuous of me to direct that at you anyway. It really should have been directed to everyone generally (including myself).

No worries, I wasn't offended

...places I frequent online...

Gee, that makes it sound almost sorded somehow. Let's just say 'sites I visit'. That's better

And though we each of us have the power to overcome the insults and negative messages we get we must also remember that we are social animals. That the social envrionment within which we were brought up can have a profound impact on our subconscience and that such deep and early impacts are that much more difficult to overcome.

That was really interesting! I guess things like that run deeper than one might think. Good vs. bad etc...
Being afraid of the dark (neg) or seeing the light. (pos) We are indeed social creatures, I mean...would anyone ever bother clipping and commenting here, if they weren't? Hmm...
Thanks for directing me that clip kmcolo. MORE food for thought.

...each of us have the power to overcome the insults and negative messages

A point of difference, Mr Colo. This is an "after the fact" treatment of symptoms--resultant emotion. The key is in the moment of initial processing. When the thoughts and opinions of others are heard, considered, and are assessed clearly and unemotionally, there is nothing to overcome. The stupidity or brilliance of these processed thoughts is irrelevant to the sense and efficacy of this method.

Those whose sole purpose it is to cause an emotion in you, can still claim a small measure of success in that you have been made to "overcome" what they have created in you, even when you are "successful" in doing so.

If I understand you correctly your statement would be true if there were no contextual history for the person. But there is for everyone. Much like the little girl who sees the black doll as being bad there is context within which we place all interactions. Certainly it helps to realize that your persona, your ego, (online and in the world) are not "you" and this can be found with training. But is that not too a reaction? Can you say that you have not, through training and thought, "overcome" future interactions that hurt the ego? Then again maybe I didn't understand you at all.

When the thoughts and opinions of others are heard, considered, and are assessed clearly and unemotionally, there is nothing to overcome.

I'd rather have emotions, even negative ones and then "overcome" them, than not having emotions at all and see things so clinically, that I didn't feel anything at all. That's not directed at anybody out here, but mostly at myself, just meaning that I don't see having emotions or feelings as being a bad thing, quite the opposite! Emotions are what makes us, us, so to speak. I'm glad that I'm a sensitive person even if others may perceive that as being a weakness. I don't for sure! It's a strenght to be able to "dare" show emotions. That's what I think.

Emotions aren't "symptoms" to be overcome. They are experiences, good or bad, who make us who we are. Feeling, social creatures with great capacity for love...OR hurt.

It's this attitude or belief that it's an either/or choice between being an emotion directed being and an uncaring unfeeling being that causes those who hold this mistaken perception to cling to emotionalism as the "better, more human" choice.

Well being, and balance lies elswhere.

I don't agree. Since it's what I DO feel, it can never be a "mistaken perception" however you look at it. I guess we're just gonna have to agree on disagreeing in where true well being really lies. That's why people are so different in the first place.

Just out of curiousness and I suppose it's none of my business, but it would help me understand you, maybe if you would honour me with a reason or theory or answer to the question of:

Why don't you like having emotions? Because it leaves one prone to hurt or maipulation? Would that be bad even, or could even THAT be a part of learning and growing? I don't understand why it's necessary to keep an emotional disance to everything. That is meant as a polite question and not an attack or defence in any way. I'm just trying to understand why your way shoul be better tahn mine? Do you understand what I mean? It's hard to express what I mean properly maybe...

Sorry for the typos. I'm pretty tired right now.

This is the problem when one's emotions are one's identity. The simple discussion of the proper place for emotion is met with defensive protection of that identity.

That you would ask why I don't like having emotions illustrates how much you are missing what I'm getting at. Emotions are a natural, healthy, essential part of being human. I express emotion. I feel emotion. I enjoy emotion, and I guard against negative emotions.

There is protocol in all things. Emotion is transitory. You ar who notices and feels emotion, not emotion itself. Emotion as identity is a basic misordering of spiritual protocol.

I wish I had more time for your thoughtful questions, but I only have it in sporadic bits today.

I see do your point. Perhaps it IS me who's niave because I don't guard myself very much. But even though I think times have been rough for me here sometimes, I really think in a way, it's made me a better person. It has cemented my convictions even more and helped give me the strength to stand by them in the face of adversity. Something I wasn't very good at when I first joined clipmarks. (being the wimpy tree hugging softie that I am...chuckle chuckle) So all in all, it's all cool, I reckon.
Thank you back, for your just as thoughtful replies.

But I DO still value and prioritize emotions, kindness and politeness very much, regardless.