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Geshizarfollowshare
12-11-2007 8:06 PM
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Geshizar says:
Welcome to the new Christianity. Or is it The new BS. Maybe those of you who would condone torture during the week and attend your temples and cathedrals on Sunday truly don't believe in your God. Why else would you make an argument for rather then against. Now it shouldn't bother me I,m a heathen, fortunately I still maintain a since of moral decency, you know, like what is written in some of those dumb ass documents like the CONSTITUTION and THE BILL OF RIGHTS. If all you so called people of faith would get together there would be more then enough voices to effect a change, right? After all yours is the moral outraged, just and family oriented party is it not? Just like to say Thank you for living up to my worst suspicions. The entire lot are self-righteous, blathering hypocrites.
125 Comments   | Add a Comment
12-11-2007 9:41 PM
debbyski
I think Jesus would torture me babies, but then it's Chrismas
12-11-2007 10:07 PM
ratilfar
Jesus was/is the most famous victim of torture. Once can not call one self a Christian and condone such a thing. Unless one is Torquemada of course.
12-11-2007 10:14 PM
BartendingBear
You're asking the simple-minded knee-jerks around here who support such actions to arrive at an answer of 4 from the addition of 2 to 2. This escapes their collective mental potential, let alone each individual's.
12-12-2007 12:53 AM
AcesLucky
Who would Jesus torture?

Everyone who doesn't believe in him as their personal lord and savior. And he'll do so for the rest of eternity.

It doesn't matter how much good you've done or how good you've been. If you don't believe he is your eternal master, he will see to it that you'll burn in hell forever.

Such is the god of love.
12-12-2007 1:30 AM
davboz
The torture would have been maybe YOUR family getting blown apart in the attack plans they were able to get from any one of the THREE high level terrorist individuals that,unfortunately, had to undergo less than a minute of the water treatment in order to give up the information which then was used to avert several attacks.
Had the information not been gotten and the attacks been carried out, you'd make the complaint that we were unable to stop them, finding a clip with which to revel in your grandiose delusion of superiority. Not to mention if your mother had been blown to bits in one of them. (Then you'd actually have a valid complaint.)

Undoubtedly the new 3.0 interface, and this Faceb...
12-12-2007 1:35 AM
davboz
You're asking the simple-minded knee-jerks around here who support such
actions to arrive at an answer of 4 from the addition of 2 to 2. This
escapes their collective mental potential, let alone each individual's.
THAT was well stated.
12-12-2007 1:36 AM
davboz
Oh ! I though you meant who supports such a clip as this. OOpps! My bad.
12-12-2007 2:29 AM
ratilfar
Spoken like a true coward!
12-12-2007 5:17 AM
tabsey
Would he turn them into gnats eyes to be sold at the roman circus?
12-12-2007 5:22 AM
tabsey
And won't we be able to let the people from Facebook understand the world as we see it. Oh and maybe we will learn how they see the world and gain from that.
12-12-2007 6:36 AM
AcesLucky
@davboz

Sooooo. You're saying "yes" Jesus would torture people, or "no" he would not?

Which one.
12-12-2007 6:58 AM
ljsdesign
Let's see, jumping into the moral and ethical abyss , , considering ourselves above international law, and completely disregarding the Geneva code ,to use a tactic that we have for decades called other governments monsters for and that our own military will not condone, and that does nothing but make the PERSON say what you want to hear, not necessarily the truth, just to make it stop. Hmmmmm
Nope, Just can't see Jesus treating a Human Being like that.
12-12-2007 11:59 AM
Socratoad
Ah davboz , apparently you would stand up straight and salute as your nation devolved into the worlds largest banana republic.

Oh surely not
12-12-2007 1:37 PM
ratilfar
Oh he sure does, as he doing it right now. All for the glory of Empire!
12-12-2007 2:21 PM
NonStatQuo
Jesus was the nice one. Apparently it is God who likes to torture. Let's see, plagues of locusts, flooding by water etc. etc. etc.
12-12-2007 3:21 PM
Geshizar
The old testament God was into suffering, pain and the whole kill your son if you love me thing. Then he commited adultrey with joes wife and had a kid. It seams fatherhood mellowed him out slightly in the new testament.
12-12-2007 4:26 PM
Geshizar

"Waterboarding will give you a confession, but it won't always get you
the truth," McCain said Tuesday as he campaigned for the Republican
presidential nomination in South Carolina. "I'm not going to condone a
practice that we used as the rationale for prosecuting the Japanese for
war crimes in World War II.

"I maintain my belief that it is harmful to America's national
security because it damages our image so badly and we lose the
ideological struggle, which is based on the moral high ground," said
McCain, an ex-Navy pilot who suffered permanent injuries from the
torture he suffered after being shot down over Hanoi in the 1960s.
"We're going to win this struggle aga...
12-12-2007 5:36 PM
dl211
Self-preservation, I'm ok with that, As Christians go it seems to be the driving force behide your and most other religions anyway
I respect John McCain, however his opinion is simply that, funny a far-left guru quoting a Republican to win an argument, guess wonders will never cease.

If Christianity is your best argument over waterboarding let me say its weak as hell. You're naive to say the least, oh you beleive you'd never allow waterboarding, how high and mighty of you. Let's hope you never are faced with a life and death issue, but if so, you would see just how much morals fit into the situation.

I doubt before this became a political issue many would ha...
12-12-2007 5:37 PM
NonStatQuo
your whole reply just tickled me pink. I bellowed out loud when I got to this part!
It seams fatherhood mellowed him out slightly in the new testament.
12-12-2007 6:08 PM
Socratoad
Ah yes good ole boy situational ethics. When will the self-appointed "patriots" ( or are they sadists in disguise?) ever learn the the means do not ensure the ends, but rather the means become the ends.

Such dangerous misfits would have us rapidly march back into the dark ages.
12-12-2007 6:13 PM
Geshizar
McCain is not merely stating an opinion, it's experience. And political affiliation has nothing to do with it, maybe it does in your case. I can give you other arguments if you want, however since this is one Nation Under God I thought I would go with the Christian option. A lot of people can make a difference if they are not indifferent.
You really need to give me something to go on your argument just isn't there. actually it not an argument at all. More like an opinion.

Hear is a link for you
http://www.ehow.com/how_2141133_make-an-argument.html

You know the internet has a wealth of knowledge if you just apply yourself.
Does anyone know how old you have to be to be a Guru. I think I'm to young.
12-12-2007 8:11 PM
dl211
McCain is not merely stating an opinion, it's experience
Wow, I'm impressed, you actually remember he was a POW.

However, the waterboarding issue is still just his opionion it carries no more weight than that of Bill Clinton expressing his views, even if he relies on his experience, on BJs. Or for that matter, your view on Christianity.

I need no help from you in locating items of interest, especially after your initial post at the begining. And you were correct, mine was not an arguement, just an observation but I see that's about all you deal in, poping off to everyone.
12-12-2007 10:15 PM
Geshizar
waterboarding issue is still just his opionion it carries no more weight than that of Bill Clinton expressing his views
Typical Necon response. If they have nothing intelligent to say they find it necessary mention Clinton in some totally unrelated context. And finally resort to commenting on the clipper rather then the clip itself.
12-12-2007 10:36 PM
meancookie89
Hey republican like torture because of sexual frustration over why the can't be gay or anything other then pure, strait and crispy white!
12-12-2007 10:37 PM
meancookie89
They just gotta hate!
12-12-2007 10:41 PM
Geshizar
Amen to that MC
12-13-2007 12:55 AM
BartendingBear
Typical Necon response. If they have nothing intelligent to say they
find it necessary mention Clinton in some totally unrelated context.
Amen to that, Gesh!
12-13-2007 9:21 AM
dl211
Typical Necon response
The entire lot are self-righteous, blathering hypocrites
those dumb ass documents like the CONSTITUTION and THE BILL OF RIGHTS.
Welcome to the new Christianity. Or is it The new BS
Typical response of a two-faced hypocrite who dares oppose anything Lord Geshizar has to say, I'd say you are an idiot on top of being a hypocrite, people either beleive your views or you label them right wing hypocrites, right. Real nice coming from a hypocrite pal.

You dismiss anyone's comments who dare disagree and say it's just "Typical Necon respones" and declare them blathering hypocrites. You refer to the Constitution and Bill of Rights as "d...
12-13-2007 9:30 AM
dl211
Geshizar - your future posts should be labeled - For The Far Left Only all other responses will be trashed.
12-13-2007 9:40 AM
dl211

Typical Necon response. If they have nothing intelligent to say they
find it necessary mention Clinton in some totally unrelated context.
Well Bear - how is Clinton unrelated to my analogy, McCain was offered as an expert on torture due to his being a POW, I countered by saying it makes about as much sense as saying Clinton is an expert on BJs. No, it's just another jab you and your far left nuts jab at anyone who dare say anything that does not fit your nutty positons.
12-13-2007 9:48 AM
dl211
They just gotta hate!
I think you're talking about yourselves, no more hatred and vile statements come from anyone more than the far-left.
12-13-2007 9:51 AM
dl211
Ah yes good ole boy situational ethics. When will the self-appointed "patriots" ( or are they sadists in disguise?) ever learn the the means do not ensure the ends, but rather the means become the ends.

Such dangerous misfits would have us rapidly march back into the dark ages.
More proof reference the far-left hatred!
12-13-2007 2:16 PM
debbyski
You sound eerily similar to someone else I know on CM.
12-13-2007 2:37 PM
ratilfar
The answer is that Jesus would not torture anyone. After all he is the most famous victim of torture. If you want to learn how evil torture is just read the Gospels for God sake! One can not be a Christian and condone such behavior. Those that do are cowards, pure and simple.
12-14-2007 10:06 AM
Geshizar
One thing we can all agree on. For the time being we still live in counries where, for or against, left or right we are allowed to trash talk each other and our government as much as we want.
12-14-2007 7:28 PM
righthand
You sound eerily similar to someone else I know on CM.

You too? I thought I was being over imaginative. Who can beat a ladies intuition? I was waiting for the trade mark mistakes but they were not as obvious.

Are you sure? Don't they all sound the same, singing from the one swiftboat hymn sheet? Like switching from McCain, who did, to Clinton, who didn't, as diversion but ignoring AWOL Bush, the coward. Then repeated comments to confuse with a stream of meaningless guff. Logic is as useful to these headless chickens as balls on a virgin maid.

12-14-2007 7:48 PM
BitDrifter
Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-14-2007 7:53 PM
ratilfar
False comparisons, especially in light of what the Romans did to Christ.
12-14-2007 7:53 PM
BitDrifter
Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-14-2007 7:54 PM
ratilfar
Repeating them won't make them true. I am not a dittohead.
12-14-2007 7:54 PM
BitDrifter
Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-14-2007 7:55 PM
ratilfar
BD meet Wall, Wall meet BD, enjoy!
12-14-2007 7:56 PM
BitDrifter
Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-14-2007 8:27 PM
willhelm
False comparisons,
It is amazing the mental gymanastics required to subjectively frame (or ignore) a philosophical argument. A matter of degrees fits your subjective framework when desireable. However, it is disregarded when you cannot answer the question.

especially in light of what the Romans did to Christ.
Forgive them for they know not what they do.
Do you interpret the forgiveness on the grounds of action or application? If application, then I think you take quite a leap. That is just my opinion.
12-14-2007 8:36 PM
willhelm
Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-14-2007 8:46 PM
ratilfar
I will answer any actual questions posed. Until then...
12-14-2007 8:47 PM
BitDrifter
Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-14-2007 8:55 PM
ratilfar
Ok, I see what your doing here, your trying to excuse torture by equating it with imprisonment or death, which you know are not the same. Talk about playing rhetorical games. The fact that you merely repeat the same thing over, and over and over is designed to obfuscate, knowing full well torture is wrong, only serves to intimidate the innocent and extract false confessions and generally doesn't work. In fact, it is revealing that you use the framework of "punishment" as if somehow anyone would be deserving of torture and that if we merely rationalize that only the "bad guys" are getting tortured then its ok.

Very well then....

Is it right to kill an innocent man?

Or is it right to inc...
12-15-2007 3:45 AM
BitDrifter
You have yet to answer the questions, so I will post them yet again.

Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-15-2007 3:47 AM
ratilfar
But you did mine....
12-15-2007 3:58 AM
ratilfar
And to quoth myself:

Jesus was/is the most famous victim of torture. Once can not call one self a Christian and condone such a thing. Unless one is Torquemada of course.
12-15-2007 4:30 AM
BitDrifter
Jesus was imprisoned and killed also.

So...

Seeing as you have yet to answer the questions:

Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-15-2007 1:37 PM
debbyski
You sound eerily similar to someone else I know on CM.
You too?
I thought I was being over imaginative. Who can beat a ladies
intuition? I was waiting for the trade mark mistakes but they were not
as obvious.
Are you sure? Don't they all sound the same, singing
from the one swiftboat hymn sheet? Like switching from McCain, who did,
to Clinton, who didn't, as diversion but ignoring AWOL Bush, the
coward. Then repeated comments to confuse with a stream of meaningless
guff. Logic is as useful to these headless chickens as balls on a
virgin maid.

Why aren't the Clip Father's looking into this Righty? I mean, come on. Just like the time someone...
12-15-2007 2:12 PM
willhelm
DEBBYSKI - OMG, imagine a ice cold lesbo nazi bitch in a position of power--wait a sec isn't that Condi???

Debbyski - And thank you so much GW ; I hate you and others like you who let people suffer

The voice of vile hatred and utter ignorance. Pontificating on the personal life of others seems to be self-serving sport for the intellectually feeble.
12-15-2007 3:08 PM
ratilfar
Again with quoting:

The answer is that Jesus would not torture anyone. After all he is the
most famous victim of torture. If you want to learn how evil torture is
just read the Gospels for God sake! One can not be a Christian and
condone such behavior. Those that do are cowards, pure and simple.
12-15-2007 3:21 PM
debbyski
This is so interesting. Righty, do you have another opinon?
12-16-2007 4:07 PM
BitDrifter
The answer is that Jesus would not torture anyone.
Interesting, so, I'm curious:

Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-16-2007 4:25 PM
willhelm
Ratilfar:

I see what your doing here, your trying to excuse torture by equating it with imprisonment or death
Wow! Really? I don't think that is what he is doing at all. Perhaps you should really start to question your perceptive abilities. This does not speak well of them.


12-17-2007 11:11 AM
graphictruth
Just a general observation:

"You don't have a right to an opinion. You have the right to an INFORMED opinion." - Harlan Ellison.

Arguing with either Jesus or John McCain on the issue of torture is just plain freaking hiliarious. It's not just stupid, it's magificantly stupid, gloriously, conspiciously and transparently stupid. It's the sort of stupid that makes both real christians and real conservatives try and tip-toe away from you so that they won't be accidentally associated with such stupidity.

That's a really serious issue in this current climate of debate, by the by.

Just say you like the idea of torturing people. It's a perfectly reasonable kink. It's called "sadism," and if y...
12-17-2007 11:21 AM
Socratoad
Very timely and pertinent comment graphictruth.
12-17-2007 12:37 PM
BitDrifter
"You don't have a right to an opinion. You have the right to an INFORMED opinion." - Harlan Ellison.
Arguing
with either Jesus or John McCain on the issue of torture is just plain
freaking hiliarious. It's not just stupid, it's magificantly stupid,
gloriously, conspiciously and transparently stupid. It's the sort of
stupid that makes both real christians and real conservatives try and
tip-toe away from you so that they won't be accidentally associated
with such stupidity.
That's a really serious issue in this current climate of debate, by the by.
Just
say you like the idea of torturing people. It's a perfectly reasonable
kink. It's called "sadism," and if you are ethical about it and ...
12-17-2007 1:27 PM
willhelm
"You don't have a right to an opinion. You have the right to an INFORMED opinion." - Harlan Ellison.

That's interesting, Graphictruth. I believe you have a right to your opinion anyway.
12-18-2007 4:34 AM
dirish
I can't believe that such a load of dingo's kidney's can arise from so true a statement? Of course we would torture if it saved American lives in the war. I'm saying this as a veteran myself and as the father of an Iraqi war veteran. But do we support torture as a rule of thumb?
Of course not- The idea that we can conduct ourselves as civilized humans in a war where the enemy targets civilians with bomb toting women and children who are happy to blow themselves up for Allah and the Screaming Sheik of the week? It's not possible to be civilized in such an environment. It's the saddest part of the war, and it's not PC to say it,but there it is. Jesus has nothing to do with it-
I'll be brief, ...
12-18-2007 4:43 AM
dirish
Geshizar, you are so right in principle that it pains me to make the comment I made- People like you, are why people like me put our lives on the line to defend you from tyranny. I don't believe for a second that this war is a matter of "Iraqi's are gunna get us" That's just what George tells us. But we're in it now- and this is how it goes in war. Truly my heart breaks at the truth of it, but to deny it, to "play fair" like the noble Knights of Camelot will only get our soldiers killed. From the bottom of my heart I'm sorry that you and others like you have to belong to such a terrible double standard, that you call it home, but the truth is as I have laid out- ugly and wrong and full of ha...
12-18-2007 11:02 AM
AcesLucky
"If working a guy over can save my boy's life and the lives of other young men and women then screw the guy- he's as boned as a guy can be in a war of terror- but to continue treating this individual as though he has more to offer even a week after his capture is wrong all over the place- Get what you need out of the guy, then put him in a camp and let him sit out the war."
Perfectly stated.
12-18-2007 12:58 PM
BitDrifter
dirish, thanks for your sensible comments. While I may disagree with a line or two, they were sensible realistic comments.

Truly a good addition to this clip.
12-18-2007 2:07 PM
ratilfar
Thats a big "if" and thats the problem isn't it. To many "ifs"....
12-18-2007 2:09 PM
BitDrifter
Thats a big "if" and thats the problem isn't it. To many "ifs"....
Interesting "if" comment, I'm curious:

Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-19-2007 1:48 AM
Geshizar
If torture is all about saving lives then it is safe to assume it should be applied to saving all lives, not just soldiers. An example would be drugs. 15000-17000 drug related deaths in the just in the US every year from overdose. This doesn't include violet deaths of people related to drug activity. We could easily stop the flow by first grabbing all the dealers, a little water boarding and they give up the next guy in the chain and so on and so forth. In the end we have stopped the drug flow, gotten rid of all the bad guys and saved lives. We could apply this policy to any situation that may save lives why only in wartime? after all a life is a life.
Questions what happens when...
12-19-2007 1:50 AM
Geshizar
Lets not listen to any of these people. For example what would Powell know about war, how dare he speak out against torture, he must be terribly misguided. What, you don't think Powell gives a damn, about our troops in Iraq? Or maybe you don't believe he knows enough about war to make an intelligent comment. Yea its only an opinion, but then everyone of Bushes advisor's is merely giving an opinion so who's opinion do we follow.
Heres my opinion, how about we follow the opinion which conforms with everything this country is suppose to stand for, everything that our soldiers have died for throughout our history. Lets not soil the constitution and remove the honorable standards that mak...
12-19-2007 1:52 AM
BitDrifter
Interesting comments Geshizar, so:

Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-19-2007 2:17 AM
Geshizar
Your repeated comment is getting old,
Jesus would not object to a just imprisonment.
Jesus would not kill. period.
What the hell are you tiring to accomplish here anyway. Fairly simple questions from a simple mind. Are you actually having trouble figuring out these for yourself? Try going to church or consult the bible (the black thing you thump on) for further info. You seam to be the only on on this thread having trouble contributing anything of substance.
12-19-2007 2:19 AM
ljsdesign
Jesus was brought before Pontias Pilate under blasphemy and the false accusation that he was inciting the people to riot against the Romans. Pontias Brought Jesus before the tribunal, they pronounced him innocent.

Upon finding him innocent Pontias Pilate tried to reason with the Jewish religious leaders to let him go. They refused.

It was customary at that time during the passover for the Romans to pardon a Jewish prisoner as a token of goodwill. Pontias gave the people a choice between Barabas, a murderer, and Jesus. The religious leaders convinced the people to choose Barabas.

Pontias again pleaded with the religious leaders that Jesus had done no wrong and did not deserve death. The r...
12-19-2007 2:28 AM
Geshizar
Politics.
12-19-2007 2:35 AM
Geshizar
Sorry I can't remember the source.

Imagine that a known terrorist has planted a large bomb in the heart of a nearby city. The man now sits in your custody. As to the bombs location, he will say nothing except that the site was chosen to produce the maximum loss of life. [...] If a ticking bomb doesn't move you, picture your seven-year-old daughter being slowly asphyxiated in a warehouse five minutes away, while the man in your custody holds the keys to her release. If your daughter won't tip the scales, then add the daughters of every couple for a thousand miles [...] Clearly, the consequences of one man's uncooperativeness can be made so grave, and his malevolence and culpability so tran...
12-19-2007 2:36 AM
Geshizar
It appears that such restraint in the use of torture cannot be reconciled with the willingness to wage war in the first place. What, after all, is "collateral damage" but the inadvertent torture of innocent men, women, and children? Whenever we consent to drop bombs, we do so with the knowledge that some number of children will be blinded, disemboweled, paralyzed, orphaned, and killed by them. [...] It seems obvious that the misapplication of torture should be far less troubling to us than collateral damage; there are, after all, no infants interned at Guatanamo Bay, just rather scrofulous young men, many of whom were caught in the very act of trying to kill our soldiers. [...] The ethical d...
12-19-2007 2:52 AM
BitDrifter
Jesus would not kill. period.
Are there circumstances a chirstian can justify killing another, or support the killing of another and still be a christian?
12-19-2007 3:44 AM
BitDrifter
the bible (the black thing you thump on)
Further, please provide the source comment or clip that leads you to conlcude that, one I'm a christian, and that two I thump on my bible, implying I assume that I use Christianity and God as a reason for many things.
12-19-2007 7:30 AM
AcesLucky
@Geshizar

Your repeated comment is getting old,
Jesus would not object to a just imprisonment.
Jesus would not kill. period.
---

Who would Jesus torture?

Everyone who doesn't believe in him as their personal lord and savior. And he'll do so for the rest of eternity.

It doesn't matter how much good you've done or how good you've been. If you don't believe he is your eternal master, he will see to it that you'll burn in hell forever.

Isn't hell a prison of eternal torment?

So, yes, Jesus WOULD kill AND torture. Now...
---

Back to reality:

dirish's comments were right on target. He's not trying to apply an absolute to a relative. It is not always practical.

W...
12-19-2007 7:40 AM
AcesLucky
'scuse me, "trials" (not trails).
12-19-2007 8:44 AM
BartendingBear
What I find so interesting in this question (not in this particular discussion, necessarily, but in general) is that those individuals who are so quick to decry "situational ethics" are so quick to accept and employ them when convenient.

Hypocrisy, the hallmark of the morally superior.
12-19-2007 9:28 AM
debbyski
@ Bit,
Who would Jesus torture? I think the best way to explain it would be to ask the question in a different way with three familiar phases:
What would Jesus Do?
It's such a good question. And our image of Jesus is how we would shape our answer.
I think he would teach the wrongness and futility of violence in human affairs.
12-19-2007 2:35 PM
BitDrifter
What would Jesus Do?
A valid question to ask one self when facing an ethical dilemma
assuming of course that you hold some ideology and/or religion that respects
him and his teachings.

However, the answer to the question does not necessarily mean it is the correct
answer for one's own particular situation. For example, even in self-defense
Jesus would not kill another (I assume based on my limited base of knowledge).

So, would Jesus kill? No. Does that answer in itself make it wrong to kill? Not
necessarily. Does it make you a hypocrite to kill or support it? Not necessarily.

Would Jesus "torture"? No (although I take your point Aces). Does
that answer in itself make...
12-19-2007 2:55 PM
debbyski
A valid question to ask one self when facing an ethical dilemma
Yes, we agree. I'll quote Borg now, who BTW is an excellent author and Christian theologist:
"It depends on what we think Jesus is like. Which Jesus? The Jesus who tells us about the importance of believing in him so that we can be with him forever? The Jesus who will soon come again ti judge the world? If so, then what Jesus would do is to try to convert people to believing in him. The Jesus who teaches a rigorous morality? If so, I supect the answer would be follwing a code of moral purity, much of it having to do with sex."
My point is, the more general one. Our image of Jesus shapes our answer to the question.
12-19-2007 2:56 PM
debbyski
sorry for the typo's.
12-19-2007 3:06 PM
graphictruth
Thank you, BD, for clarifying your rhetorical question. I like answering rhetorical questions, I'm perverse that way.

However, a repeated "Who would Jesus Kill, Who would Jesus Imprison" was really too telegraphic to provide much of a lead in.

I'm going to point you to something I just wrote as an explanation of my own basis for making ethical judgements - with this one assertion you may find of interest:

All of these various ethical philosophies state that it is the outcome of an action that matters, rather than the choice of a particular action, or the inherent virtue or lack in the person....
12-19-2007 4:37 PM
AcesLucky
Our image of Jesus shapes our answer to the question.
A good observation, and the answer is completely subjective. Either way, it assumes the person answering the question knows the difference between right and wrong, and opts for right (doing what Jesus would do).

So what is right? Hurting the one, to save the many? Is that not what Jesus did?

graphictruth alludes to it, but moral correctness is not absolute! In fact there's no such thing an absolute moral (though there are things we absolutely would not do because of our own sense of morality).

I just popped a clip on the Saudi (king?) that "pardoned" [get that] PARDONED a rape victim from getting 90 lashes...
12-19-2007 4:43 PM
debbyski
Excellent comment Aces!
I think Jesus was centered in the God he knew that was compassionate about compassion and justice as the primary virtues in life.
12-19-2007 4:44 PM
graphictruth
So what is right? Hurting the one, to save the many? Is that not what Jesus did?
In the words of Wikipedia, [citation needed]. If that underline was intended to be a link (and it should be,) it ain't workin'.
12-19-2007 4:47 PM
graphictruth
http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/6ED3A41D-0051-4A06-A9DC-84F4554DB2A1/
speaking of links: the FBI asserts (as it long has) that torture produces "crap" results.
12-19-2007 4:49 PM
AcesLucky
If that underline was intended to be a link (and it should be,) it ain't workin'.

It was intended for emphasis (not as a link). Can't cite right now; the wife an I are off to the casino.

12-19-2007 5:48 PM
graphictruth
Actually, Jesus reputedly sacrificed himself to save the many, which is altruism. It's not quite the same as "hurting the one to save the many" - which is pretty much the plot-line of 24.
12-19-2007 6:19 PM
Socratoad
graphictruth, I would go so far as to say altruism is not at all similar to "hurting the one to save the many".

The first is exactly what the historical Jesus did. While the second sounds, to me, what a sociopath or sadist would use as an excuse for their actions.

Odd is it not, and sad, how many one meets who are seemingly incapable of grasping the concept of altruism?
12-19-2007 7:16 PM
debbyski
I haven't seen such a thoughful theological discussion in a long time.
So what is right? Hurting the one, to save the many? Is that not what Jesus did?
Which, IMO, also asks the question was the death of Jesus foreordained? Did it have to happen because of divine necessity? Was it the will of God?
I say this: The execution of Jesus was virtually a human inevitability. This is what happens to people who challenge domination systems. Jesus's passion got him killed. But to restrict his passion to his death is to ignore his passion!
12-20-2007 7:41 AM
AcesLucky
@graphictruth

So what is right? Hurting the one, to save the many? Is that not what Jesus did?

In the words of Wikipedia, [citation needed]. If that underline was intended to be a link (and it should be,) it ain't workin'.
The theory behind the sacrifice, is to PAY for something else. Value for value.

Jesus supposedly "sacrificed" his life (hurting the one) to "save" the many.

It's in that sense that I meant "Isn't that what Jesus did?" Would you sacrifice yourself to save many others? (It depends greatly on your moral character and personal bravery, wouldn't it?)

Such moral character and personal bravery is the belief believers hold as Jesus.
...
12-20-2007 12:34 PM
graphictruth
Aces, I believe that you have just come up with a topper for the "Repugnant Conclusion" of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repugnant_conclusion">Mere Addition Paradox.</a> (Been doing my homework)

Who's invention was hell? Likely it comes from oral tradition, predating even the oldest books - every precursor religion I know of mentions an afterlife. Only when religion gets organized do we find conditions being placed on getting there, and/or where you go based on priestly intervention. Nice racket, that.

WASP Christian Hell is a form of psychological intimidation intended to terrify and subdue a tithe-paying population.

I am not yet arguing the point you raised - in case you we...
12-20-2007 1:12 PM
graphictruth
dl211 said:
I doubt before this became a political issue many would have minded the waterboarding of terrorists, some of your people in Congress didn't until it became politically correct to do so, it simply goes against the far lefts agenda at this time.
You know, I have met very few people in my life that I would say to be genuinely evil. And I'm not going to go that far based on one paragraph.

But I'd say that in being able to even formulate that idea, much say it out loud in public with every apperarance of feeling that it's a perfectly reasonable and truthful thing to say, you have revealied that, if not completely dead, your soul must be suffering from the equivalant ...
12-20-2007 1:38 PM
Socratoad
I second that graphictruth. And I salute you for taking the time, and having the patience to address that hateful simmering sack of bile.
12-20-2007 2:29 PM
BitDrifter
And sadly, you probably equate "power" with "the ability to f**k with people and get away with it."
So true, this is why all forms of torture should be banned. It is an evil, soul destroying thing.

We must march in the street to shut down immediately the torture centers aka prisons. They serve no purpose but to punish, humiliate, and destroy the soul of those put in them, hell in these places NO QUESTIONS are even asked. You are just put in one to SUFFER! IT IS SICK! People go in one person and come out someone else, HOW CAN ANYONE support such treatment of human beings. They are HUMAN, even if they did rape a 5 year old girl then killed her, not Trash, HUMAN!

They are just...
12-20-2007 2:45 PM
davboz
Hell, you'd be a liberal yourself if you thougth that would put you on
the "winning" side, the side to suck up to and become a parasite upon.
In this community that IS the winning side. By about 9 to 1. The extreme type which ammounts to less than 10% in the real world. The complete polar reversal of these elements is pretty typical in web communities. Even those that started out somewhat balanced like this one. Most are just chat-rooms of mostly liberal-to extreme leftists ranging from the dangerous to the harmless.You know it's too late when the cliques are firmly entrenched and you see a lot of things like,"heh,heh".
It's time to stifle the gag reflex cause ...
12-20-2007 3:00 PM
debbyski
@Bit,
I agree. There have been some movements for some time now that are gaining momentum if anyone is interested.
http://www.witnesstorture.org/node?from=120
12-20-2007 3:05 PM
AcesLucky
@graphictruth

I am not yet arguing the point you raised - in case you were about to object. What I am arguing is that the formulation of the point is dependent on cultural Christian assumptions.
Absolutely. I have to use certain assumptions (like Jesus actually existed, the existence of a hell, and so forth) in order for the flow of the conversation to make sense for those who use the Jesus meme as a point of reference.

This is why every so often I insert the caveat "if you believe any of this", and so forth.

The actual hell (Gehenna), as best I can tell, was a dumping pit where they burned their garbage outside of Jerusalem. The bodies of dead criminals were often ...
12-20-2007 3:07 PM
BitDrifter
@Bit,I agree. There have been some movements for some time now that are gaining momentum if anyone is interested.http://www.witnesstorture.org/node?from=120
I agree, that one needs to be shut down to, but considering they have a gormet menu and only hold a few prisoners, I think instead we should start with something more along the lines of rikers island, they torture up to 15,000 human beings at a time.
12-20-2007 3:16 PM
davboz
Great satirical take on "graphicuntruth"'s laughable tirade, there. The shallowness of these minds is such that they cannot fathom what may be counter-intuitive at the outsest, anything that has any unfortunate element of negativity towards any human life for whatever reason.
Unfortunately there are "bad" things that have to happen to "bad" (behaving) people in order to insure goodness, a better life for the rest of us. This can be a deeply complicated concept for those who only perceive what affects them emotionally. So in their view, people who support the need for tolerating such treatment - interrogation,prison,etc.,etc. - are "evil, their intentions are evil", and the original criminal ...
12-20-2007 3:18 PM
davboz
the Jesus meme
oh my god,........This place is pure comedy.
12-20-2007 3:20 PM
AcesLucky
I agree. There have been some movements for some time now that are gaining momentum if anyone is interested.
http://www.witnesstorture.org/node?from=120
Or something much more direct...

ITMFA
12-20-2007 3:26 PM
davboz
But all morals are subjective
Yup. This is truly becoming a more dangerous world what with ideas such as this dominating the culture.
The instant this one crests the critical mass point, is when we are finished.
12-20-2007 3:32 PM
davboz
Just say you like the idea of torturing people. It's a perfectly reasonable kink.
That is just plain dysfunctional thinking.
12-20-2007 4:04 PM
AcesLucky
@davboz

Sooooo. You're saying "yes" Jesus would torture people, or "no" he would not?

Which one?

I asked you that way up top. What's your answer?
12-20-2007 4:11 PM
ljsdesign
These are not convicts.They are not prisoners they are detainees. They have not had a trail, they haven't been proven guilty.
They are suspects, under suspicion, not proven.

We don't let cops beat confessions out of suspects.
12-20-2007 4:16 PM
BitDrifter
These are not convicts.They are not prisoners they are detainees. They have not had a trail, they haven't been proven guilty. They are suspects, under suspicion, not proven.
We don't let cops beat confessions out of suspects.
I see, so if guilt is proven without a reasonable doubt, torturing them in prison or waterboarding them is ok?
12-20-2007 4:17 PM
debbyski
I was actually being satirical when I said I agreed with Bit's satirical remark.
But I was serious about the link, and on second thought I like the ITMFA idea better.
*LMAO*
12-20-2007 4:20 PM
BitDrifter
I was actually being satirical when I said I agreed with Bit's satirical remark.
Always nice when two people can come together and satirically agree.
12-20-2007 4:25 PM
ljsdesign
No. People do not get tortured in prison. But people are in prison as a punishment after being proved guilty.

these people haven't even had a trail, haven't been proven guilty, and their being tortured, which is worse than a prison sentence.

If we use torture on these suspects, then why don't we let cops use the same methods ?
12-20-2007 4:31 PM
BitDrifter
Sorry Prison IS Torture. It destroys people, it humiliates people, it debases people, it makes people live in fear, it destroys their souls. They go in as one person and come out another, it is pure evil to do such to human beings.

All they are are places built to satisfy the sick lust for control of a human being. The weakest in society are the ones who do this. It gives them a sense of power.
12-21-2007 12:38 AM
dirish
I want to get back to the original point that Geshizar made-
You believe that a thing must apply all across the board-
torture for example is something that if we condone in one light, must be condoned for (drug addicts or dealers? ) all-
It's not that easy, I wish it were-
My opinion in this matter is that of a parent, and as a veteran, I know the real deal about the ugliness of war- albeit I'm a Grenada era veteran, I knew some of the folks that we're talking about. They are not like other people- they are trained weapons. It's a deeply disturbing fact of war-and I'm right in what I said- But you are too. What we have here is a different set of priorities. I served not only because it's tr...
12-21-2007 12:47 AM
dirish
have to eliminate the low and ignorant first. Is that part of the peaceful tryst that you subscribe to?
The one unifying truth is this- men will never agree- and if as you say all men are equal, then all idea's are valid, and as you can see here, that kind of peace just isn't possible.
There can be no unifying truth- without the elimination of all thoughts that are different or opposed. The peace bringer, by this truth, would have to be the worlds greatest mass murder and then only a few would survive to live in this Utopia. I'm truly sorry that the world is as it is, because peace world peace can only come at the price of many tens of millions of lives. That would and could never be good-
12-21-2007 2:23 AM
BitDrifter
dirish, I will say it again, thanks for your sensible, realistic comments.
12-21-2007 9:56 AM
graphictruth
It is ironic to see that, when called out on the basis of essential morals, those here who are most moralistic become apologists for the most amoral, expedient and downright evil behavior there is. They are, in the name of protecting "their way of life," perfectly willing to take as much life as it takes.

Well, ok, let's play by those rules, shall we? What happens then? I'll tell you what. torture and terror aimed at our soldiers and civilians there - and if not over here, the only reason for it not happening will be due to logistics.

@BD: Yes, I do object to our current prison system. And I am unembarrassed to agree with your attempt at satire.

Prisons and correction facilities are need...
12-21-2007 10:24 AM
graphictruth
@daveboz

In this community that IS the winning side. By about 9 to 1.
The extreme type which ammounts to less than 10% in the real world. The
complete polar reversal of these elements is pretty typical in web
communities. Even those that started out somewhat balanced like this
one. Most are just chat-rooms of mostly liberal-to extreme leftists
ranging from the dangerous to the harmless.You know it's too late when
the cliques are firmly entrenched and you see a lot of things like,"heh,heh".
Well, Dave, that's concequential of the medium. You see, in order to function successfully within this medium - whatever one's natural political beliefs and feelings about hum...
12-21-2007 3:29 PM
graphictruth
...continued

Now, the people in this position are, sometimes subtly, sometimes
overtly advised that it's best to leave the Unwashed Masses unconfused
with the facts. That sounds elietist, and it is - but it also points ot
the fact that those who are not trained to manipulate facts to derive
accurate conclusions will indeed be confused and disturbed by them.

To handle those folks, training in Rhetoric - the art of emotional
persuasion - is taught. You might be more familiar with the term
"propaganda." The concepts are not quite interchangable, but the aim
of both is to influence you based on your emotional reactions to
certain symbols and ideas you have been strongly conditioned to acce...
12-23-2007 6:02 PM
righthand
Are you sure? Don't they all sound the same, singing from the one swiftboat hymn sheet? Like switching from McCain, who did, to Clinton, who didn't, as diversion but ignoring AWOL Bush, the coward. Then repeated comments to confuse with a stream of meaningless guff. Logic is as useful to these headless chickens as balls on a virgin maid.
Some trick. I'm quoting myself, with a purpose. Bush-hugger#1 says in the next comment...
Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
HE REPEATS THESE SAME PHRASES 10 TIMES.
YES, 10 TIMES

This is Swiftboating at its very worst!

I've detailed recently how to deal with these attention seeking retrogr[b]...
12-23-2007 10:49 PM
BitDrifter
HE REPEATS THESE SAME PHRASES 10 TIMES. YES, 10 TIMES This is Swiftboating at its very worst!
LMAO ! I see you got to use your favorite word *claps for righthand* Shall I count how many times you have used some variation of "switftboating." Everyone you disagree with is a swift boater, it truly is pathetic but I would expect nothing less from you, considering the "swiftboat" tactics that you employ.

And further, I do not waste my time rephrasing and rephreasing and rephrasing as others do when a question is avoided, I will simply repeat myself until I have obtained an answer.

Oh and by the way righthand, I'm curious:

Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-24-2007 10:55 AM
righthand
When a fool asks a foolish question, only a fool would consider answering the fool. particularly a bush-hugging fool.
12-24-2007 3:43 PM
BitDrifter
When a fool asks a foolish question, only a fool would consider answering the fool. particularly a bush-hugging fool.
*imitates the whiny righthand*
Stop swiftboating me, you, you, you SWIFTBOATER! *snivvle snivvle, whine whine*

12-26-2007 9:37 AM
righthand
HE REPEATS THESE SAME PHRASES 10 TIMES. YES, 10 TIMES This is Swiftboating at its very worst!
and
When a fool asks a foolish question, only a fool would consider answering the fool. particularly a bush-hugging fool.
When a fool asks a foolish question where he repeatedly misuses the name of Jesus, now for the ELEVENTH time, then it passes from foolish stupidity to total DISRESPECT. Could a genuine Christian continue this DISRESPECT no matter how badly the fool required attention?

12-26-2007 1:00 PM
BitDrifter
When a fool asks a foolish question where he repeatedly misuses the name of Jesus, now for the ELEVENTH time, then it passes from foolish stupidity to total DISRESPECT. Could a genuine Christian continue this DISRESPECT no matter how badly the fool required attention?
*imitates the whiny righthand*
Stop swiftboating me, you, you, you SWIFTBOATER! *snivvle snivvle, whine whine*
*stop imitating the whiny righthand*

----

Also, you are not one to talk about disrespect:

"Yes, Christian Zionist are the lowest form of life." - righthand

"[i]As for 'POPPED', do we have to know when he's about in this fashion.
Popping doesn't require a comment from the number one [b]...
12-26-2007 1:12 PM
BitDrifter
genuine Christian continue this DISRESPECT
Please provide the source comment that details my religous beliefs (if any).

Oh and I almost forgot:

Who would Jesus Imprison?
Who would Jesus Kill?
12-28-2007 9:32 AM
righthand
When a fool asks a foolish question where he repeatedly misuses the name of Jesus, now for the ELEVENTH time, then it passes from foolish stupidity to total DISRESPECT. Could a genuine Christian continue this DISRESPECT no matter how badly the fool required attention?
This is the FULL quote and not a part of it. Your popping the WW1 photos had earned you a New Year's dispensation. And now? Well, if you are a Christian Zionist then I'm truly sorry for you as riding two horses simultaneously is impossible - unless you think a practising Christian Muslim is also possible.

May I wish you a happy and peaceful New Year? Peace may not be high on the agenda of your leader but it's v...
12-28-2007 10:54 AM
BartendingBear
I found this wonderful quote in the January '08 Esquire:

"Term limits should apply to religious leaders."
Bill from Cleveland
'bout sums it up, particularly in the case of Pat Robertson.
12-28-2007 1:10 PM
BitDrifter
May I wish you a happy and peaceful New Year? Peace may not be high on the agenda of your leader but it's very high on mine, so my wish is genuine. As for happy, well you may need to do a little work on that yourself. Again, I wish you a happy and peaceful New Year.
To end this silly back and forth, I am just going to say:

Yes you can wish me a happy and peaceful New Year, and hopefully you will allow me to wish you the same. This year has been a good one for me on many levels, and I am quite happy. I hope the same of you.

Happy New Year, and I really enjoyed the WW1 clips.
12-29-2007 4:01 PM
righthand
I found the WW1 site by accident. It seems to have struck a chord with clippers. There is much more interesting data on the site that is certainly new to me. You should go there yourself and see what interests you.

I certainly wish you a happy and peaceful New Year. I intend in the new year to be less strident in my comments. Beating someone over the head seldom if ever achieves a change of mind.
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