Materialism under Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Slavery etc....dwarfs whatever case you make that religion causes the most destruction. The fact is that Materialism is the greatest source of destruction.

So if god orders people to do evil, is it Spiritualism? I hear he's got quite the record for destruction himself, don't you know?


(The Materialism thing is logically impoverished. You simply lump some evil people together, call them materialist, and then say materialism is evil.

Hitler was evil, he was brunette, therefore brunettes are evil. Interesting logic you've got there.

Materialism is the vaccine that cures when mothers don't get their prayers answered. Mate...

Materialism under Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Slavery etc....dwarfs whatever case you make that religion causes the most destruction. The fact is that Materialism is the greatest source of destruction.

So if god orders people to do evil, is it Spiritualism? I hear he's got quite the record for destruction himself, don't you know?


(The Materialism thing is logically impoverished. You simply lump some evil people together, call them materialist, and then say materialism is evil.

Hitler was evil, he was brunette, therefore brunettes are evil. Interesting logic you've got there.

Materialism is the vaccine that cures when mothers don't get their prayers answered. Materialism is what gives you a computer and your children the ability to call home, even if they're 2,000 miles away.

Materialism contains more truth about the world around us and has done more good than every holy book ever written, combined.

I know that it's true because I have faith that it is, and faith is a higher form of knowledge than materialism science, isn't that so?)

@E

Your materialist world view says nothing about good and evil. Objects can not sway one to become good or evil and are for our use only.

Go back to the subject matter as described in the title of the clip.

You have these so-called "spiritual" people claiming "spiritual" guidance (all the while collecting "material" money for the service) housed in a "spiritual" house of god, motivated by "spiritual" words in a so-called "spiritual" book, led and protected by a so-called "spiritual" Pope,...

...and the implication is that raping and molesting little children (even in wheelchairs) is somehow less of an offense than not being convinced of a god?

You see my friend "Materia...

@E

Your materialist world view says nothing about good and evil. Objects can not sway one to become good or evil and are for our use only.

Go back to the subject matter as described in the title of the clip.

You have these so-called "spiritual" people claiming "spiritual" guidance (all the while collecting "material" money for the service) housed in a "spiritual" house of god, motivated by "spiritual" words in a so-called "spiritual" book, led and protected by a so-called "spiritual" Pope,...

...and the implication is that raping and molesting little children (even in wheelchairs) is somehow less of an offense than not being convinced of a god?

You see my friend "Materialism" is nothing more than a change of subject. It is not the issue.

It is the false spiritual values under which these men have been indoctrinated. The false value that says the rape of children is not as bad as being an atheist. And they are saying, 'we're not that bad!'

By now this may very well be a part of your own indoctrinated value system, and you may label it "spiritual" if you like; but it is clear that these priests cannot tell the difference between good from evil.

I loath to discover that this could possibly be a Christian value. But the facts (over 5,000 molesting priests now?) suggests that it might be a Catholic one.

You have these so-called "spiritual" people claiming "spiritual" guidance

So-called is right. It is evident you are able to recognize the hypocrisy by the actions of these priests and religious. For it to be hypocritical, it must then be understood that there is an expectation for Catholics to act in a manner that is in opposition to this evil. As an "insider", I can acknowledge that these abuses absolutely oppose any and all Catholic teachings.

As a father, I can relate to the anger and injustice brought about by people who should have been trusted. It would be my greatest fear for any one of my children to undergo such torment.

I loath to discover that this could...

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You have these so-called "spiritual" people claiming "spiritual" guidance

So-called is right. It is evident you are able to recognize the hypocrisy by the actions of these priests and religious. For it to be hypocritical, it must then be understood that there is an expectation for Catholics to act in a manner that is in opposition to this evil. As an "insider", I can acknowledge that these abuses absolutely oppose any and all Catholic teachings.

As a father, I can relate to the anger and injustice brought about by people who should have been trusted. It would be my greatest fear for any one of my children to undergo such torment.

I loath to discover that this could possibly be a Christian value. But the facts (over 5,000 molesting priests now?) suggests that it might be a Catholic one.

I am also able to recognize that the perpetrators acted out by their own inordinate, sick desires who are "Catholic" and not because of. To assume and to claim that they became molesters because they were Catholic is ignorant. If we are to follow this logic, then why isn't the focus on the public school system as well?

The rate of child abuse is about the same, if not higher in comparison to the priest scandal. If we are so quick to condemn the Church, then why is the public school system any different?

Efrain,

I think your comment "certain leaders" knew but not.....
severely understates the level of knowing that existed. And once again you only acknowledge that certain members of the highest spiritual guiders of the Irish Catholic Church knew instead of expressing your disdain for them.

Here's what the Irish Prime Minister had to say:

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen, on Tuesday, apologized to victims for the state's failure to intervene in what the report described as endemic sexual abuse and severe beatings in schools for much of the 20th century and he urged religious orders to pay additional compensation.

"It is deeply shameful for all Irish people that this ha...

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Efrain,

I think your comment "certain leaders" knew but not.....
severely understates the level of knowing that existed. And once again you only acknowledge that certain members of the highest spiritual guiders of the Irish Catholic Church knew instead of expressing your disdain for them.

Here's what the Irish Prime Minister had to say:

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen, on Tuesday, apologized to victims for the state's failure to intervene in what the report described as endemic sexual abuse and severe beatings in schools for much of the 20th century and he urged religious orders to pay additional compensation.

"It is deeply shameful for all Irish people that this happened in our country and that for so long it was not confronted," he told a news conference.

Revelations of abuse, including a string of scandals involving priests molesting young boys, have eroded the Catholic Church's moral authority in Ireland, once one of the most devout countries in the world.

Then you have Irish Bishop Buckley making these remarks:

One in ten of the 5000 Catholic priests in Ireland are involved in clandestine affairs with women, says a rebel Bishop whose organization supports priests in forbidden relationships

According to Bishop Pat Buckley, at least 500 priests enjoyed regular sex with women and some even referred to their clerical collar as the "bird catcher". Studies had shown that 80 per cent of priests had broken their vows of celibacy, he added.

Touted as Ireland's rebel bishop, Buckley runs the Bethany organization, which he set up to support those in love affairs with the clergy.

Bishop Buckley was si...

read more»

Then you have Irish Bishop Buckley making these remarks:

One in ten of the 5000 Catholic priests in Ireland are involved in clandestine affairs with women, says a rebel Bishop whose organization supports priests in forbidden relationships

According to Bishop Pat Buckley, at least 500 priests enjoyed regular sex with women and some even referred to their clerical collar as the "bird catcher". Studies had shown that 80 per cent of priests had broken their vows of celibacy, he added.

Touted as Ireland's rebel bishop, Buckley runs the Bethany organization, which he set up to support those in love affairs with the clergy.

Bishop Buckley was sidelined by the Catholic Church in the mid-1980s when he pursued his own ministry for those who felt alienated by the traditional church.

Bishop Buckley said up to 40 per cent of the Catholic clergy in Ireland were sexually active, including practicing homosexuals.

Ssssshhhh.... only a few knew........

http://www.medindia.net/news/One-in-Ten-Irish-Catholic-Priest-Involved-in-Sexual-Relationship-51821-1.htm

Oh ouch, what I find disdainful are those incapable of admitting that wherever there are priests that are asked to repress natural human desire there is a history of using the power of their position to abuse those who trusted them.

I have no doubt what Bishop Buckley says is true, the only thing in question is the numbers. Most people exaggerate so 30% is probably more like it.

How about the comments of another priest then:

Four times as many priests involve themselves sexually with adult women than with children, says A.W. Richard Sipe. Sipe, a former Benedictine monk and author of Sex, Priests, and Power: Anatomy of a Crisis, has studied celibacy and sexuality within the priesthood for...

Oh ouch, what I find disdainful are those incapable of admitting that wherever there are priests that are asked to repress natural human desire there is a history of using the power of their position to abuse those who trusted them.

I have no doubt what Bishop Buckley says is true, the only thing in question is the numbers. Most people exaggerate so 30% is probably more like it.

How about the comments of another priest then:

Four times as many priests involve themselves sexually with adult women than with children, says A.W. Richard Sipe. Sipe, a former Benedictine monk and author of Sex, Priests, and Power: Anatomy of a Crisis, has studied celibacy and sexuality within the priesthood for more than 30 years. At any time, he says, 20 percent of priests in good standing are involved in sexual relationships with women. Moreover, he estimates only 2 percent of those vowed to celibacy achieve it.

Take some place like California, where you live Efrain.

According to Terrie Light, priests in California are not held to any professional or legal standards--nor are they defrocked--for sexual misconduct with an adult. Adds A.W. Richard Sipe: "Even when [the sexual misbehavior] is known, as long as it doesn't cause a scandal it doesn't merit a great deal of attention from superiors or bishops. It's tolerated."

For me there seems to be abundant proof that the church turns it's head the other way first and then only when brought out into the sunlight admit that they have a problem. So if you want to call "the church" all the ignorant members in the pews so be it. I choose to call "the church" the administrators, and I am confident that a large percentage of the administrators knew what was going on.

@Efrain

it must then be understood that there is an expectation for Catholics to act in a manner that is in opposition to this evil.

It must be understood that there is an expectation for *any decent person* to act in a manner that is in "opposition" to this evil. Therefore...

I would bring to your attention that previous Popes AT LEAST as far back as the 1950's knew, and actively hid these molesters by moving them from parish to parish as they committed these crimes INSTEAD of notifying the police and having them prosecuted for child molestation.

In wha...

@Efrain

it must then be understood that there is an expectation for Catholics to act in a manner that is in opposition to this evil.

It must be understood that there is an expectation for *any decent person* to act in a manner that is in "opposition" to this evil. Therefore...

I would bring to your attention that previous Popes AT LEAST as far back as the 1950's knew, and actively hid these molesters by moving them from parish to parish as they committed these crimes INSTEAD of notifying the police and having them prosecuted for child molestation.

In what way is hiding these criminals acting in "opposition" to this evil?

Your highest leaders actually aided and abetted this activity by harboring criminals and then putting them in positions whereby they could continue their crimes against "the least of us".

Note in the article titled, Catholic bishops warned in 1950's on child molesting priests:

"The founder of a religious order that treats Roman Catholic priests who
molest children concluded in the 1950s that offenders were unlikely to
change and should not be returned to ministry..."

The rate of child abuse is about the same, if not higher in comparison
to the priest scandal. If we are so quick to condemn the Church, then
why is the public school system any different?

School Principals don't routinely do everything possible to aid and abet child molesters. The highest leadership of the Catholic church did.

You stated "there is an expectation for Catholics to act in a manner that is in opposition to this evil."

Clearly your highest leaders don't meet these standards.

Again, how could a decent god possibly be the guide of this church? It is clear this god is missing, or has nothing to do with this church.

"The founder of a religious order that treats Roman Catholic priests who
molest children concluded in the 1950s that offenders were unlikely to
change and should not be returned to ministry..."

"By the 1960s, Fitzgerald was losing control over the direction of the religious order, and medical and psychological professionals began working at the center — a change he had resisted. Those experts said some abusers could return to ministry."

And in this case, the biggest mistake was to listen to the secular "professionals."

Your highest leaders actually aided and abetted this activity by harboring criminals and then putting them in positions whereby they could continue their crimes agai...

"The founder of a religious order that treats Roman Catholic priests who
molest children concluded in the 1950s that offenders were unlikely to
change and should not be returned to ministry..."

"By the 1960s, Fitzgerald was losing control over the direction of the religious order, and medical and psychological professionals began working at the center — a change he had resisted. Those experts said some abusers could return to ministry."

And in this case, the biggest mistake was to listen to the secular "professionals."

Your highest leaders actually aided and abetted this activity by harboring criminals and then putting them in positions whereby they could continue their crimes against "the least of us".

75% of of allegations were reported after 10 years of the occurrence. 50% between 10 to 30 years and 25% after 30 years. It is impossible to aid and harbor child molesters if one is not aware of their intentions. Between 1950 and 2002, about 4% of priests were accused abusing minors. That would mean that only in about 1% of cases, the Catholic leadership would be able to respond in a timely manner.

As you pointed out with your reference to the article, the Church at least actively sought "treatment" for the perpetrators, in the early 50's, only to be diagnosed as "cured" by those outside of the Church.

Again, how could a decent god possibly be the guide of this church? It is clear this god is missing, or has nothing to do with this church.

And how could He allow such quacks and shrinks to exist?!

I'm not at all trying to down play the severity of this evil. But what is conveniently not recognized, is that the Church has certainly set in effect certain precaution measures in order to prevent such tragedies. It is so easy to blame what is not understood and hated, but at least it should be recognize that the leadership was only aware of 1% of cases to take immediate action.

@E

at least it should be recognize that the leadership was only aware of 1% of cases to take immediate action.

Your extrapolations are false. That "75% of allegations" reported after 10 years of the occurrence, and the "50% between 10 to 30 years and 25% after 30 years" you are citing? That's not to the clergy; that's to the POLICE!

The fact that they were already in treatment means the clergy already knew about it! So, nice try.

Notice..

"Fitzgerald set up the Paraclete treatment center in the late 1940s in Jemez Springs, New Mexico, mainly to help clergy struggling with alcoholism and emotional troubles. Soon, bishops began sending him priests who had molested young peo...

@E

at least it should be recognize that the leadership was only aware of 1% of cases to take immediate action.

Your extrapolations are false. That "75% of allegations" reported after 10 years of the occurrence, and the "50% between 10 to 30 years and 25% after 30 years" you are citing? That's not to the clergy; that's to the POLICE!

The fact that they were already in treatment means the clergy already knew about it! So, nice try.

Notice..

"Fitzgerald set up the Paraclete treatment center in the late 1940s in Jemez Springs, New Mexico, mainly to help clergy struggling with alcoholism and emotional troubles. Soon, bishops began sending him priests who had molested young people or could not keep their celibacy vows."

"In a 1957 letter to Bishop Matthew Brady of Manchester, New Hampshire, Fitzgerald wrote that abusive priests only pretended to repent and change "to be again in a position where they can continue their wonted activity."

That's 17 years so far of being put back into their positions BEFORE the seculars got involved.

But the secular folks didn't show up until the 60's! That's at least 20 years before the "secular" folks showed up!! Nice try again.

"He said eventually the church would have to establish "a uniform code of discipline and of penalties" to protect the priesthood."

"More than four decades later, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops did just that."

Get that? More than 4 decades later.

"It created a national discipline and child protection policy after news reports and court files unsealed in 2002 showed that many bishops had moved guilty priests from assignment to assignment without notifying parents or police."

Sorry dude. Pretending this is the fault of secular shrinks is about 20 years wrong.

That's not to the clergy; that's to the POLICE!

Where's your evidence to refute these stats?

The fact that they were already in treatment means the clergy already knew about it!

Obviously. Those in treatment were in treatment because their actions were made known. It doesn't change the fact that 75% of cases were reported after 10 years where it would be impossible to take immediate action.

"In a 1957 letter to Bishop Matthew Brady of Manchester, New Hampshire, Fitzgerald wrote that abusive priests only pretended to repent and change "to be again in a position where they can continue their wonted activity."

Doesn't sound like an ill scheme perpetrated by th...

That's not to the clergy; that's to the POLICE!

Where's your evidence to refute these stats?

The fact that they were already in treatment means the clergy already knew about it!

Obviously. Those in treatment were in treatment because their actions were made known. It doesn't change the fact that 75% of cases were reported after 10 years where it would be impossible to take immediate action.

"In a 1957 letter to Bishop Matthew Brady of Manchester, New Hampshire, Fitzgerald wrote that abusive priests only pretended to repent and change "to be again in a position where they can continue their wonted activity."

Doesn't sound like an ill scheme perpetrated by the Church to spread child abuse. It sounds more like a matter of ignorance and an optimism to have their "own" healed. Only to be fooled by the perpetrators.

@Efrain

Let's show the cards on the table shall we? Here, from a BBC article... Sex crimes and the Vatican


"A secret document which sets out a procedure for dealing with child sex abuse scandals within the Catholic Church is examined by Panorama.

Crimen Sollicitationis was enforced for 20 years by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger before he became the Pope.

It instructs bishops on how to deal with allegations of child abuse against priests and has been seen by few outsiders.

Critics say the document has been used to evade prosecution for sex crimes.

Crimen Sollicitationis was written in 1962 in Latin and given to Catholic ...

@Efrain

Let's show the cards on the table shall we? Here, from a BBC article... Sex crimes and the Vatican


"A secret document which sets out a procedure for dealing with child sex abuse scandals within the Catholic Church is examined by Panorama.

Crimen Sollicitationis was enforced for 20 years by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger before he became the Pope.

It instructs bishops on how to deal with allegations of child abuse against priests and has been seen by few outsiders.

Critics say the document has been used to evade prosecution for sex crimes.

Crimen Sollicitationis was written in 1962 in Latin and given to Catholic bishops worldwide who are ordered to keep it locked away in the church safe.

It instructs them how to deal with priests who solicit sex from the confessional. It also deals with "any obscene external act ... with youths of either sex."

It imposes an oath of secrecy on the child victim, the priest dealing with the allegation and any witnesses.

Breaking that oath means excommunication from the Catholic Church."
---

So there you have it my friend. Your spiritual leader told them all, from the victim to the bishops, they will NOT go to the police, but will keep their mouths shut or be excommunicated from the Catholic Church and it was done in the utmost secrecy.

If you were to define "cover up" could you give a better example? The Pope tried to cover up these crimes. Pure and simple.

Earlier you said

"it must then be understood that there is an expectation for Catholics to act in a manner that is in opposition to this evil."

Is the disillusionment coming into focus?

(retry)

It instructs bishops on how to deal with allegations of child abuse against priests and has been seen by few outsiders.

A smoking gun, huh?

In this document, there is no mention at all whatsoever, that one should not report abuse to the civil authorities. The secrecy mentioned only applies to canon law, especially within the Sacrament of Confession for various reasons. It only extends to canon law actions which deals with the status of accused priests and serves the purpose of protecting the integrity of the investigation.

What this document is not, is an instruction to cover up child abuse. It does not prohibit the victim, religious or any other to report child mo...

(retry)

It instructs bishops on how to deal with allegations of child abuse against priests and has been seen by few outsiders.

A smoking gun, huh?

In this document, there is no mention at all whatsoever, that one should not report abuse to the civil authorities. The secrecy mentioned only applies to canon law, especially within the Sacrament of Confession for various reasons. It only extends to canon law actions which deals with the status of accused priests and serves the purpose of protecting the integrity of the investigation.

What this document is not, is an instruction to cover up child abuse. It does not prohibit the victim, religious or any other to report child molestations to the civil authorities. The Church has no authority to prevent one from doing so.

From article cited by AcesLucky:

Reporting for Panorama, Colm O'Gorman finds seven priests with child abuse allegations made against them living in and around the Vatican City.

One of the priests, Father Joseph Henn, has been indicted on 13 molestation charges brought by a grand jury in the United States.

During filming for Sex Crimes and the Vatican, Colm finds Father Henn is fighting extradition orders from inside the headquarters of this religious order in the Vatican.

The Vatican has not compelled him to return to America to face the charges against him.

Colm O'Gorman was raped by a Catholic priest in the diocese of Fer...

read more»

From article cited by AcesLucky:

Reporting for Panorama, Colm O'Gorman finds seven priests with child abuse allegations made against them living in and around the Vatican City.

One of the priests, Father Joseph Henn, has been indicted on 13 molestation charges brought by a grand jury in the United States.

During filming for Sex Crimes and the Vatican, Colm finds Father Henn is fighting extradition orders from inside the headquarters of this religious order in the Vatican.

The Vatican has not compelled him to return to America to face the charges against him.

Colm O'Gorman was raped by a Catholic priest in the diocese of Ferns in County Wexford in Ireland when he was 14 years old.

Father Fortune was charged with 66 counts of sexual, indecent assault and another serious sexual offence relating to eight boys but he committed suicide on the eve of his trial.

Colm started an investigation with the BBC in March 2002 which led to the resignation of Dr Brendan Comiskey, the bishop leading the Ferns Diocese.

Colm then pushed for a government inquiry which led to the Ferns Report.

It was published in October 2005 and found: "A culture of secrecy and fear of scandal that led bishops to place the interests of the Catholic Church ahead of the safety of children."

what exactly are you defending?

The true teachings of the the Church. When followed faithfully, we see a complete contrast to what is being presented here as "Catholic." Those with an agenda and a hateful prejudice to what is the Catholic Church, will only focus on the actions of a small percentage of individuals who should represent the Church but rather serve their own individual perverted inclinations.

What is conveniently overlooked is the witness provided by those who are faithful to the actual teachings of the Church:

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/...

what exactly are you defending?

The true teachings of the the Church. When followed faithfully, we see a complete contrast to what is being presented here as "Catholic." Those with an agenda and a hateful prejudice to what is the Catholic Church, will only focus on the actions of a small percentage of individuals who should represent the Church but rather serve their own individual perverted inclinations.

What is conveniently overlooked is the witness provided by those who are faithful to the actual teachings of the Church:

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=8795

http://www.boystown.org/Pages/default3.aspx

http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/SaintOfDay/default.asp?id=1277

http://www.mercyhome.org/aboutus/

To name a few. To be against true Catholicism is to be in opposition to the service the Church has provided for two millennia to underprivileged children.