That may be so, but its part of the history of America. Just because someone else does it first doesn't mean your off the hook if you do it yourself. The Romans did not invent crucifixion, but they sure embraced it.

From the article you site:

It is believed that contact with Europeans widened the practice of scalping among Native Americans, since some Euro-American governments encouraged the practice among their Native American allies during times of war. For example, in the American Revolutionary War, Henry Hamilton, the British Lieutenant-Governor of Canada, was known by American Patriots as the "hair-buyer general" because it was believed he encouraged and paid his Native Americ...

That may be so, but its part of the history of America. Just because someone else does it first doesn't mean your off the hook if you do it yourself. The Romans did not invent crucifixion, but they sure embraced it.

From the article you site:

It is believed that contact with Europeans widened the practice of scalping among Native Americans, since some Euro-American governments encouraged the practice among their Native American allies during times of war. For example, in the American Revolutionary War, Henry Hamilton, the British Lieutenant-Governor of Canada, was known by American Patriots as the "hair-buyer general" because it was believed he encouraged and paid his Native American allies to scalp American settlers. When Hamilton was captured in the war by the Americans, he was treated as a war criminal instead of a prisoner of war because of this.

Here is how the honorable English prosecuted warfare against the native inhabitants (from a link found in article sited above):

"And, we do hereby promise, by and with the advice and consent of His Majesty's Council, a reward of 30£ for every male Indian Prisoner, above the age of sixteen years, brought in alive; or for a scalp of such male Indian twenty-five pounds,and twenty-five pounds for every Indian woman or child brought in alive: Such rewards to be paid by the Officer commanding at any of His Majesty's Forts in this Province, immediately on receiving the Prisoners or Scalps above mentioned, according to the intent and meaning of this Proclamation."

Practices that...

Here is how the honorable English prosecuted warfare against the native inhabitants (from a link found in article sited above):

"And, we do hereby promise, by and with the advice and consent of His Majesty's Council, a reward of 30£ for every male Indian Prisoner, above the age of sixteen years, brought in alive; or for a scalp of such male Indian twenty-five pounds,and twenty-five pounds for every Indian woman or child brought in alive: Such rewards to be paid by the Officer commanding at any of His Majesty's Forts in this Province, immediately on receiving the Prisoners or Scalps above mentioned, according to the intent and meaning of this Proclamation."

Practices that continued well into the 19th century by both White settlers and American troops.

From "It's All Just a Little Bit of History Repeating"

The School of the Americas, wherein the United States Military trained allied armies in the techniques of state terror and torture, was founed in 1946.
The Vietnam Conflict, in which millions of Vietnamese were slaughtered in order to satisfy the theoretical fancies of American paranoids, began with the arrival of American "advisors" right around the time Tristero was born, and it was prosecuted alternately under Democratic and Republican leadership for twenty years.
The Iranian coup, "Operation Ajax," occured in 1953. T...

From "It's All Just a Little Bit of History Repeating"

The School of the Americas, wherein the United States Military trained allied armies in the techniques of state terror and torture, was founed in 1946.
The Vietnam Conflict, in which millions of Vietnamese were slaughtered in order to satisfy the theoretical fancies of American paranoids, began with the arrival of American "advisors" right around the time Tristero was born, and it was prosecuted alternately under Democratic and Republican leadership for twenty years.
The Iranian coup, "Operation Ajax," occured in 1953. The number of foreign dictators supported directly by the United States, not even in secret, despite their affections for torture, mass murder, sand all other manners of human savagery and indignity is too long to list.

The practice of "extraordinary rendition" began not under Bush, but as a presidential directive issued by Bill Clinton.
The use of black sites, CIA prisons, secret transfers, and torture date at least to the beginning of the cold war. Torture has long been the official policy of the United States.
...
...
They ignored the dispassionate critiques of people like Chomsky or else dismissed them as lunatics. They believed that people like Jim Bovard were hysterics and heretics. Somewhat more moderate critiques of empire--Vidal for instance--were more palatable to them because the writing was prettier. But they never accepted the heart of the critique.
If it were true that Bill Clinton sought to expand, and did expand, the powers of government to combat "terrorism," to kidnap and to torture, and to prosecute foreign military actions, then it would hardly do to spend hours a day and thousands of words figuring out which member of his identical political faction to bless with the keys to the kingdom.

The history of who and when, though interesting, doesn't seem relevant to the situation IMO, which is, is torture at all acceptable? Is it something we want to engage in NOW? That is has happened before and with zeal even, just makes it even more horrific to think, that nothing has been learned about it's ineffectiveness and the human devastation it causes, BOTH to the victim and the perpetrator.

Torture is an exercise in sadism and humiliation more than security or intelligence gathering. It's sick and depraved and should NOT be accepted, if we claim to be the "civilized" ones of the world. It has been shown, that gaining the captive's trust and confidence, gets you far better results, be...

The history of who and when, though interesting, doesn't seem relevant to the situation IMO, which is, is torture at all acceptable? Is it something we want to engage in NOW? That is has happened before and with zeal even, just makes it even more horrific to think, that nothing has been learned about it's ineffectiveness and the human devastation it causes, BOTH to the victim and the perpetrator.

Torture is an exercise in sadism and humiliation more than security or intelligence gathering. It's sick and depraved and should NOT be accepted, if we claim to be the "civilized" ones of the world. It has been shown, that gaining the captive's trust and confidence, gets you far better results, better intelligence and to the point, faster. Sitting down and having a chat and playing a game of chess with the prisoner will get you the info you want way faster than beating them to a pulp. THEN you can throw them in jail or whatever afterwards. Why history keeps repeating itself with these morbid *games of pain*, is beyond me.

IMO, anyone who can condone or engage in torture are just not normal. There has to be something socio- or psychopathically wrong with people to not see how depraved and beastly torture is. Something must be terribly wrong with them, it's just not human. Anyway... that's just my opinion.

Anyway... that's just my opinion.

Well said, and I agree with all you said. Why have you an understanding that not all other have?

The torturer is also scarred. Not everyone is up to deliberately hurting others. They need to hate. The worse get repicked while the good are dumped. The bad need to hurt more to get their kicks. Even on exercise with their own side, they go too far.

If Bush&Co are so sure that waterboarding is not torture well let us have a live demonstration in Congress with one of the goons taking the plunge. I'd love to see Cheney or Rumsfeld sing for their supper. Let's see what the president sees as legal.

[i][url=/clipmark/527847FF-A166-4477-[b]...

Anyway... that's just my opinion.

Well said, and I agree with all you said. Why have you an understanding that not all other have?

The torturer is also scarred. Not everyone is up to deliberately hurting others. They need to hate. The worse get repicked while the good are dumped. The bad need to hurt more to get their kicks. Even on exercise with their own side, they go too far.

If Bush&Co are so sure that waterboarding is not torture well let us have a live demonstration in Congress with one of the goons taking the plunge. I'd love to see Cheney or Rumsfeld sing for their supper. Let's see what the president sees as legal.

Rummy Runs Ragged, "like a fox on the run" from the EU