 AcesLucky says: 4. Regarding atheism, Hitler specifically opposed it in a 1933 speech in Berlin: “We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” prussian 5. By order of the Führer (Hitler), Nazi Germany’s soldiers (Wehrmacht) wore belt buckles inscribed “Gott mit uns” (”God is with us”). An atheist would never demand this. With just these five facts out of many others, why would they still insist that Adolf Hitler was an atheist? Only total ignorance would support such misguided statements Hitler used Christianity as a vehicle to further his purposes for evil in the world. It's quite ironic since the world would be a better place if we lived according to Jesus' principals, but focusing only on that loses sight of the fact that Jesus' teachings were edgier than that. After all, it got him killed. Why? Demonization. It's a weird (and illogical) tien in between science (especially the science of Evolution), atheism and eugenics. Somehow in their minds it is neatly tied together and leads them to believe that Hitler was an atheist and therefore atheism is evil. It helps with the Anti-Christ myth. So much murder and mayhem could not be caused by a Christian. We know better! "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people." - Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant I think they do it to distance themselves from the fact, that "believers" are just as capable of incredible evil, as non-believers. To them, believers equal "good" and secularism equals "evil". Anything that challenges that assumption just screws with their heads too much. I think they do it to distance themselves from the fact, that "believers" are just as capable of incredible evil, as non-believers.Christianity teaches that everyone is a sinner. Everyone. Every. One. Downer religion... sucks dude! Everyone's a sinner, perhaps That depends on one's belief system. But not everyone is evil. Sin is relative. Evil is not always absolute, but it is less relative than sin. If I remember correctly from my readings, Hitler said and did many things in the public eye that he did not necessarily believe whole-heartedly. Such exclamations about religion won his people over. He absolutely needed the support of these people at the start of his endeavor, and continued to appeal to them throughout his time in power. I think Debby is right on. Hitler used religion as a vehicle to accomplish his evil goals. Stalin was an atheist and killed a whole lot more people than Hitler. I would like to say one thing about "sin" without appearing to attack you or your belief system BNM. (if, indeed, that is your belief system) because it is so important to me. I ask myself why did Jesus end up on the cross? One of the most widespread beliefs is that Jesus died for our sins and that is the price he had to pay; necessary blood. For most conservative Christians this is the essence of Christianity. This is part of a larger, familiar theological package in which all of us are sinners. I think this theology limits God by saying God can only forgive sins if adequate payment is made. Instead I feel the execution of Jesus was inevitable for someone who challenged the domination sy... Historians estimate that the then Pope, Pius XII, saved somewhere between 700,000 and 850,000 Jews from the Nazi persecution: http://tinyurl.com/ntbzlx Furthermore, a practicing Catholic would not even consider killing the Pope: http://tinyurl.com/l6tkyp Hitler may or may not have been an ateist, but he certainly was anti-Christian: http://tinyurl.com/3avgo4 & http://tinyurl.com/mkqdqr Oh, by the way, how many Jewish lives did atheists rescue from the Nazis? Oh, by the way, how many Jewish lives did atheists rescue from the Nazis?"...rescuers [of Jews from the Nazis] did not differ significantly from bystanders or all non-rescuers with respect to their religious identification, religious education, and their own religiosity or thhat of their parents." Samuel P. Oliner & Pearl M. Oliner, The Altruistic Personality: Rescuers of Jews in Nazi Europe (New York: Free Press, 1988, p156). http://lccn.loc.gov/87033223 D810.J4 O418 1988 / 940.54/7794/019 19. E.A., you are just an automatic apologist for anything done in the name of Christianity and the Catholics in particular. Oh, by the way, how many Jewish lives did atheists rescue from the Nazis?Probably far more than any believer would ever want to admit. Not every military person is a deluded believer, even during WWII Stalin was an atheist and killed a whole lot more people than Hitler.Hitler used religion as a tool to further his ends taking advantage of the sheeple mentality that is inherant in all belief systems. There is ample evidence that Hitler was a believing Catholic himself proven by his very own quotes. Stalin did not do his murdering in the name of atheism. He attacked ANY group that showed any attempt to challenge or subvert his control over the people. The church inherently controls people by telling them what is right and wrong and often dictates to them who they should listen to. Stalin was only interested in his own personal power and control over his nation and cared not if people believed in god. So much murder and mayhem could not be caused by a Christian. We know better!Crusades Salem Inquisition The many peoples/nations/tribes/societies butchered in the bible Ireland The Wars of Religion "...rescuers [of Jews from the Nazis] did not differ significantly from bystanders or all non-rescuers with respect to their religious identification, religious education, and their own religiosity or thhat of their parents."Ok. But I'm asking about non-believers, non-religious ie. atheists. debbyski - Well said. Unfortunately, people will take out something that was once written, but neglect all the other comments that were written in the course of that particular individuals life. It's absurd, to say the least. "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two gre... I could give quote after quote after quote to prove my point.I think you grossly exaggerate. Ok. But I'm asking about non-believers, non-religious ie. atheists.I gave you the reference, so do some reading for yourself. Or is it that you can't read anything that isn't church-approved? You're being intellectually lazy. I checked the links you posted earlier, it's time for you to do some work. If a man says "I am Catholic, and always shall be" and then does evil things, do the evil things serve as proof that he is in fact 'not' Catholic? If so, what does one call the many Catholic Popes that have done evil things and have abetted and ordered evil things be done on the authority of that church? If Hitler was an atheist based on his actions (and not his words), then what must be the Pope and his offending priests? The evil actions of the church go back far further than Hitler. The fact is, evil people will do evil things regardless of their affiliated beliefs. The good thing (and the common ground) is that we ALL recognize the evil when we see it! We need to prosecute the evi... We need to prosecute the evil REGARDLESS of the uniform it wears. And Why do Christians Insist that Hitler was an Atheist?Back to the topic... I would suggest because Hitler's views were greatly influenced by Darwin's evolution theory. Eugenics used to create a master race in order to administer "survival of the fittest," is absolutely non-Christian. I would suggestThat's an opinion, not a fact. The "social Darwinism" and "survival of the fittest" thinking was from Herbert Spencer, not Darwin, and was making the rounds before Origin of the Species was even published. You demand facts from others but don't supply them yoursell. I would suggest because Hitler's views were greatly influenced by Darwin's evolution theory. Eugenics used to create a master race in order to administer "survival of the fittest," is absolutely non-Christian.So how does that make him an atheist? Note: I'm pretending your strawman presuppositions are true (which they're not) to bring light to your illogical conclusion AS IF your claims were true. It still doesn't follow that he was an atheist. Once again, you're equating an evil action with atheism. If your association of evil actions to atheism were true, then historically the Catholic church is atheist even into modern times. Your reasoning fails in spite of your false... Eugenics used to create a master race in order to administer "survival of the fittest," is absolutely non-Christian.Uh... isn't the bible filled with people being butchered because they were the wrong type of people? Jorjor, not to mention that "Social Darwinism" is a favorite philosophy of the far-right. The same part of the political spectrum that proclaims itself the most religious. Curious ain't it? Quite true, ratilfar. I did some reading on economic history a short while back - Galbreath's book on the 1929 crash, another on the rise of the Republican conservatives leading up to Reagan, and so on. Herbert Spencer was the darling of the 19th century robber barons, and those were the people who were the philosophical forebears of the anti-New Deal conservatives. Don't forget, too that most organized/institutionalized religions are bodies based on exclusion rather than inclusion. @ Jorjor That's an opinion, not a fact. The "social Darwinism" and "survival of the fittest" thinking was from Herbert Spencer, not Darwin, and was making the rounds before Origin of the Species was even published.Spencer did coin the phrase, "survival of the fittest" after he was influenced by Darwin. “This survival of the fittest, which I have here sought to express in mechanical terms, is that which Mr. Darwin has called ‘natural selection’, or the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life.” - Herbert Spencer 1864. "On the Origin of Species" was published 1859. You demand facts from others but don't supply them yoursell. @ Aces So how does that make him an atheist?Because folks like this give you guys a bad name! “if you can breed cattle for milk yield, horses for running speed, and dogs for herding skill, why on Earth should it be impossible to breed humans for mathematical, musical or athletic ability?” - Richard Dawkins @ rat "Social Darwinism" is a favorite philosophy of the far-right.Nazism =Nationalsozialismus = National Socialism = Left Wing. The phrase, but not the concept: The first clear articulation of Spencer’s evolutionary perspective occurred in his essay 'Progress: Its Law and Cause' published in Chapman's Westminster Review in 1857... This attempt to explain the evolution of complexity was radically different to that to be found in Darwin’s Origin of Species which was published two years later/. Spencer is often, quite erroneously/, believed to have merely appropriated and generalized Darwin’s work on natural selection/. But although after reading Darwin's work he coined the phrase 'survival of the fittest' as his own term for Darwin's concept, and [i]is often [b]... @Efrain I asked: So how does that make him an atheist? You said: Because folks like this give you guys a bad name! Please explain how an evil Catholic who believes in Eugenics gives atheists a bad name. Remember, I'm pretending like your suppositions are true, that it was all done because of "darwinism," so it should be easy. Please, an honest and logical answer this time. And just as an aside, are you saying that being EVIL makes him an Atheist? If so, does it make the Pope or the Catholic church atheist? These questions deserve an "honest" answer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism Nazism is often considered by scholars to be a form of fascism. While it incorporated elements from both left and right-wing politics, the Nazis formed most of their alliances on the right.[9] The Nazis were one of several historical groups that used the term National Socialism to describe themselves, and in the 1920s they became the largest such group. The Nazi Party presented its program in the 25 point National Socialist Program in 1920. Among the key elements of Nazism were anti-parliamentarism, Pan-Germanism, racism, collectivism,[10][11] eugenics, antisemitism, anti-communism, totalitarianism and opposition to economic liberalism and political lib... Antara said: I would suggest because Hitler's views were greatly influenced by Darwin's evolution theory. Eugenics used to create a master race in order to administer "survival of the fittest," is absolutely non-Christian.Hmm. Non-Christian? The Vatican has admitted that Charles Darwin was on the right track when he claimed that man descended from apes.[/b] http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,25041499-26040,00.html Maybe the Pope is an evil atheist, too. .  Antara said:Correction. It was, of course, Efrain.  Please explain how an evil Catholic who believes in Eugenics gives atheists a bad name. Let me be more specific. Although Darwin was not as extreme as his followers, he did pave the way for the eugenics movement: "We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one... "This is precisely the aim of Eugenics. Its first object is to check the birth-rate of the Unfit, instead of allowing them to come into being, though doomed in large numbers to perish prematurely. The second object is the improvement of the race by furthering the productivity of the Fit by early marriages and healthful rearing of their children. Natural Selection rests upon excessive production and wholesale destruction; Eugenics on bringing no more individuals into the world than can be properly cared for, and those only of the best stock." - Francis Galton. Religious views: non-theist, eugenics: "I take Eugenics very seriously, feeling that its principles ought to become one of the domin... @ thisname Here some points where the Church agrees and disagrees with evolution: 1.The question of the origin of man's body from pre-existing and living matter is a legitimate matter of inquiry for natural science. Catholics are free to form their own opinions, but they should do so cautiously; they should not confuse fact with conjecture, and they should respect the Church's right to define matters touching on Revelation. 2. Catholics must believe, however, that the human soul was created immediately by God. Since the soul is a spiritual substance it is not brought into being through transformation of matter, but directly by God, whence the special uniqueness of each person. 3. All me... they should respect the Church's right to define matters Catholics must believe, however, that... Catholics may not, therefore, believe in... Here some points where the Church agrees and disagreesSo you're forced to believe what you're told? No independent thinking allowed? The "church" doesn't know anymore than the rest of us. No one does. The Pope is no more "holy", than you or I. To put all your faith in an institution that claims to have all the answers, it the utmost display of sheeple-dom, IMO. And regarding eugenics. MANY so-called religious people have embraced it: "In her very interesting book, [i]Preaching Eugenics: Rel... Regarding Nazism: Here's another interesting tidbit: "Although eugenics may be most commonly associated with Nazi Germany, the truth is that the Nazis looked to America for inspiration for their own programs. Americans were way ahead of everyone else in their eugenics programs and Christians assumed a leading role in promoting its ideals." http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/PreachEugenics.htm Hitler was a baptized Catholic. His ideas and actions were anything but Christian. His views clearly were influenced by non-theismDebunked. The Pope is no more "holy", than you or I.I have never met a Catholic clergyman above the rank of Cardinal, but none of the Catholic priests (there was one in my family) I ever met could qualify as "holy". The only one I ever met in person who does qualify as "holy" is the Dalai Lama, with whom I had a personal encounter in 1993. He is holy through his words and deeds; the pope is "holy" by appointment. He is holy through his words and deeds @Efrain but excepting in the case of man itself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed." - Darwin. Religious views: agnosticSupposing it was a religious view and not a scientific one, so what? Supposing it was a scientific view and not a religious one, so what? Even if Hitler BELIEVED it to be true... so what! How does that make him an Atheist? An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in a god or gods, not someone who doesn't believe in eugenics! Besides, eugenics is constantly practiced by your god (if you believe the bible stories are true events). Does that make your god atheist? (It doesn't make Hitler one, either.) Fact: Evil does ... The only one I ever met in person who does qualify as "holy" is the Dalai Lama, with whom I had a personal encounter in 1993. He is holy through his words and deeds; the pope is "holy" by appointment.Wise words. And definitive! @ thisname So you're forced to believe what you're told?Not at all. At any given time I can freely and willfully choose to stop believing what is taught by the Church. I can easily pick and choose which doctrines I'd like to believe in. But would I truly be Catholic? Tomorrow I can join a strict creationist church where evolution is altogether condemned. I can stop believing in the existence of God if I chose to. Or better yet I can make eugenics my religion, although I would be considered an imbecile by the great evolutionist teachers I have quoted from. See I have choices. Even though I freely and willfully choose what the Magisterium of the Catholic Church teaches, it d... @ Aces Even though Hitler was baptized Catholic, he wasn't influenced by Catholicism no where near as he was with evolutionist atheistic ideals. I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. Would a practicing Catholic attempt to plot a murder on the Pope? Would one send Catholic priests and nuns to the concentration camps? Would one alter the writings in the Bible to suit his needs? Would he permit the SS newsletter to defame the Church? Oh, nevermind I get it , because Hitler said he's Catholic, then he must be! That makes sense. Efrain, are you just cracked and delusional or trying to troll? What does idea of Hitler ordering the Pope to be killed have to do with his religion? Hitler himself escaped an assassination plot and believed that God had spared him to seek revenge on the world. (The Plot to Assassinate HItler) Would one send Catholic priests and nuns to the concentration camps?Oh? Were they the only ones? Would one alter the writings in the Bible to suit his needs?Like the bible hasn't changed through time by various religious groups seeking to edit it more to their flavor. [url=http://www.thelostbooks.com/intro.h... @E I can assure you there are simple minded saints who know much more of life than any of the "scientists" mentioned above put together.I doubt you can cite a single superstition that has more value than the truth. Your "assurance" is empty. Sorry Aces, but the bible does sell much more than common science books. In that regard, superstition has more value ... His ideas and actions were anything but Christian. His views clearly were influenced by non-theism, similar to ones above.Efraain must have hitler's brain in a jar, where he quizzes it about motives and intentions. Personally, I would be very suspicious of someone who claims to know that mind so well. @E His ideas and actions were anything but Christian.Is torturing people on the rack Christian? Is burning people at the stake Christian? Is genocide Christian? Is taking far more money from the poor than you ever give back Christian? Is allowing children to die instead of taking them to a doctor Christian? Is child rape and molestation Christian? Is hiding & defending child sex offenders Christian? Is condoning slavery Christian? Is bigotry towards gays and lesbians Christian? Is the Catholic church Christian? Sounds to me like Hitler's ideas and actions were perfectly Christian, if not perfectly Catholic. Oh, wait! The frenzy in which believers try and wash themselves clean of Hitler is awesome. There is nothing more disturbing than to see the culmination of their beliefs put into practice. Is torturing people on the rack Christian? Is burning people at the stake Christian? Is genocide Christian? Is taking far more money from the poor than you ever give back Christian? Is allowing children to die instead of taking them to a doctor Christian? Is child rape and molestation Christian? Is hiding & defending child sex offenders Christian? Is condoning slavery Christian? Is bigotry towards gays and lesbians Christian? Is the Catholic church Christian?Absolutely not, except for the last question. Even an atheist can comprehend these acts are anti-Christian. For that there must be a standard for what IS Christian. Does atheism have a standard for morality? Atheism is the absence of theism. Nothing more, nothing less. There are no club rules, no club slogans, no club guidlines. In fact, its not even a club. Its an absence of membership to the theism club. It doesn't judge people based on morality, it doesn't require tribute, it doesn't have rules, laws, or guidelines. Being an atheist is like being bald in a room of hairy people. It's like changing channels on a television that is turned off. Morality is something that is not determined by god. It is something that is developed and set by groups of people in a society or culture. Morality evolves as that group evolves and changes as that group changes. @E Is torturing people on the rack Christian? Is burning people at the stake Christian? Is genocide Christian? Is taking far more money from the poor than you ever give back Christian? Is allowing children to die instead of taking them to a doctor Christian? Is child rape and molestation Christian? Is hiding & defending child sex offenders Christian? Is condoning slavery Christian? Is bigotry towards gays and lesbians Christian? Is the Catholic church Christian? Absolutely not, except for the last question.You're in obvious denial. But let's pretend you are right. If these are not Christian, how then can Hitler's atrocities be atheist? See? In spite of your false presuppos... Would god qualify as a Christian?ZING!! And the quarter back is toast! So I'm the 62nd! What does it really matter what Hitler's religious beliefs were, AFTER THE FACT!!?? It's a matter of denial and embarrassment. You are right, it really doesn't matter, but believers simply hate to admit he was one of theirs. David, their logic works like this: Hitler was an atheist. Hitler was evil. Therefore, all atheists are evil. It lets them dehumanize and demonize atheists to make them easier to hate and discriminate against. However, if they have to accept that Hitler was a Christian (Catholic), then, by that same logic, it's Christians and/or Catholics that are evil. Hitler was also a vegetarian, a nonsmoker and a teetotaler. It's all weaving whole cloth out of vapors. @David Hughes What matters is that Christians try to paint atheists as evil by using Hitler as an example. The logic is faulty by itself, and the use of faulty so-called facts to do it, is particularly dishonest. Some people are making dishonesty a trademark of the religion, and it needs to be exposed as an immoral character flaw in those so-called Christians. Is lying Christian? (But the people doing the lying will claim they are! Just like Hitler.) @ Aces There are basic fundamentals of Christian morality that can be used as a standard. It can be summed up as such: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." Mt 22:37-40 When a Christian acts in opposition to this standard, it is considered a sin and un-Christian like. It is an undeniable fact that everyone, including Christians, have at some point violated these principles. Now, why do you consider evil actions portrayed by Christians, Christian? Even tho... @ Aces Would god qualify as a Christian?God IS the Christ! Those consider Him as God (and even some who don't) are called Christian. When an atheist commits the crime of rape at knife-point on a 77 yearHas this ever happened? Is there a case you can cite? You can't base an argument (in the debating sense) on a hypothetical. Would god qualify as a Christian? God IS the Christ! Those consider Him as God (and even some who don't) are called Christian.May I assume that means "yes"? If so, then all the atrocities attributed to the Christian god that are un-Christian-like means either morals are irrelevant OR immorality is patently Christian. (Which is perfectly consistent with Hitler.) Supposing the bible stories are true, god has committed the worst crimes imaginable, killing even the smallest babe and the yet to be born fetus by the millions. He has killed the old grandmothers, the teens in love, the criminal alike. He has shown no difference in compassion, justice or moral development. He eve... @E When an atheist commits the crime of rape at knife-point on a 77 year old woman and the victim cries out, "Don't you have any decency?" and he answers, "you stupid woman, there is no decency. There is no God." Can this be attributed to atheism?In your example the REASON he is committing the crime is because he has no decency. The fact that he adds "there is no God" is not relevant. Clearly he could lack decency whether he believed there was a god or not. Does the Catholic priest who sodomizes a little boy have decency? No. Does he believe in god? Irrelevant. (The answer could be yes OR no and it changes nothing. So it cannot be attributed to his belief in a god or his lack of belief in a god.) Wonderful explanation Aces. But I fear that perhaps you may have used too many words. I wonder if Efrain would mind counting how many times god killed someone in the bible and compare it too how many times the devil killed someone. God denied and forbade wisdom and knowledge from mankind and it was the devil that provided that gift to them. Without it mankind would have been relegated to the intelligence of sheep ... well ... I guess that did stick a little with some people ... I'm sure someone like Efrain will probably assume that we are trying to glorify the devil and completely miss the logical blunders prevalent throughout his religion. Just to point that out to Efrain, that is not i... There's a graph comparing "Who has killed more, Satan or God?" “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.” ~ Isaac Asimov Popped for that InfoWarrior. So true. |
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