To anyone that doesn't believe in Biblical teaching, the message is lost. To someone who felt 'forced' into church as a child, or who feels 'outcast' because of a strongly held belief, a strong religious view is 'poisonous'. They don't hear the message of love, peace and unity. They only hear a list of 'don't do this' and feel like someone is pointing a finger at them.
Pastor Warren (whom I don't always agree with by the way) only states his beliefs. He doesn't apologize for how they sound to anyone. He doesn't have to. He represents a significant percentage of the population and the general views of most religious conservatives.
I just wish that people would actually listen to his ...

To anyone that doesn't believe in Biblical teaching, the message is lost. To someone who felt 'forced' into church as a child, or who feels 'outcast' because of a strongly held belief, a strong religious view is 'poisonous'. They don't hear the message of love, peace and unity. They only hear a list of 'don't do this' and feel like someone is pointing a finger at them.
Pastor Warren (whom I don't always agree with by the way) only states his beliefs. He doesn't apologize for how they sound to anyone. He doesn't have to. He represents a significant percentage of the population and the general views of most religious conservatives.
I just wish that people would actually listen to his message - yeah, go to his church or read his book - before assuming they know anything about him or his ability to say a prayer at the inauguration of a Christian president.

I just wish that people would actually listen to his message - yeah, go to his church or read his book - before assuming they know anything about him or his ability to say a prayer at the inauguration of a Christian president.

You mean his "Gay relationships are equivalent to incest, pedophilia, and abusive polygamy" message?

His I want Christian citizens of California to vote to strip away their fellow citizens' rights message?

Read the Max Blumenthal piece. Warren has stated that the only thing that separates him a [url="http://www.truthwinsout.org/blog/focus-on...

I just wish that people would actually listen to his message - yeah, go to his church or read his book - before assuming they know anything about him or his ability to say a prayer at the inauguration of a Christian president.

You mean his "Gay relationships are equivalent to incest, pedophilia, and abusive polygamy" message?

His I want Christian citizens of California to vote to strip away their fellow citizens' rights message?

Read the Max Blumenthal piece. Warren has stated that the only thing that separates him a James Dobson is "tone".

Rick Warren's message is "My sky deity is the only way, and any other choice damns you to burn in Hell.

"I love you (Hell-bound as you are), but you have to live on my sky deity's terms (as I & my ilk interpret them), and that includes structuring the civil laws applicable to believers and non-believers alike in accordance with what my sky deity decrees (as I & my ilk interpret them)".

Didn't we go to war in Afghanistan to put an end to religious fundamentalists enforcing their beliefs on the population? So why is it a good idea here at home?

Oh that's right. The Christians have it right and everyone else is deluded and Hell-bound. How silly of me. It's Muslim Sharia that's bad and evil. Christianity written into the law books, that's in line with what the sky deity wants.

Pastor Rick can save his version of love. The rest of us will settle for respect. In fact, we're going to fight tooth and nail for it.

Wow. As a Christian who believes in love and acceptance (and a law student), I can't believe that Rick Warren supports Proposition 8. Marriage is about the entitlement of people in a long-term, committed relationship to certain rights and duties of support. It is only fair that all permanent partners should have the same rights of inheritance, shared pension, guardianship, etc.

I'm getting married in a few months. The day will be all about the two of us, and there's no way that it would be threatened by the fact that more people are allowed to get married than before. I just don't GET how extending the definition is supposed to threaten its existence.

That said, I have read one of RW's boo...

Wow. As a Christian who believes in love and acceptance (and a law student), I can't believe that Rick Warren supports Proposition 8. Marriage is about the entitlement of people in a long-term, committed relationship to certain rights and duties of support. It is only fair that all permanent partners should have the same rights of inheritance, shared pension, guardianship, etc.

I'm getting married in a few months. The day will be all about the two of us, and there's no way that it would be threatened by the fact that more people are allowed to get married than before. I just don't GET how extending the definition is supposed to threaten its existence.

That said, I have read one of RW's books and found it quite good. I would never have expected such bigoted comments from the same person. So I suspect that Obama's choice is more of a PR blupse than any kind of genuine endorsement of RW's views on this matter.

The vote in California was NOT a religious vote. I'm sure Christians voted, and I'm sure non- Christians voted.

The Bible, both old and new testaments, warn of false teachers - usually men who pick and choose which of God's laws to abide by and which to condemn. The reason we need teachers (preachers) is because we are ALL sinners. NO ONE IS PERFECT and never has any preacher/teacher ever said so ( If he did, he lied). People go to church to learn how to live according to God's law - it doesn't mean that the always do or can.

As for being Gay - if you are, fine - but I don't have to like it, condone it or pat you on the head and tell you that God will forgive you (not that you'd wa...

The vote in California was NOT a religious vote. I'm sure Christians voted, and I'm sure non- Christians voted.

The Bible, both old and new testaments, warn of false teachers - usually men who pick and choose which of God's laws to abide by and which to condemn. The reason we need teachers (preachers) is because we are ALL sinners. NO ONE IS PERFECT and never has any preacher/teacher ever said so ( If he did, he lied). People go to church to learn how to live according to God's law - it doesn't mean that the always do or can.

As for being Gay - if you are, fine - but I don't have to like it, condone it or pat you on the head and tell you that God will forgive you (not that you'd want me to or care if I do). According to my Bible, without repentance, God cannot forgive and it's not my job to do so either.

As for being Gay - if you are, fine - but I don't have to like it, condone it or pat you on the head and tell you that God will forgive you (not that you'd want me to or care if I do). According to my Bible, without repentance, God cannot forgive and it's not my job to do so either.

I'm neither gay nor Christian, and I am married. Personally, I'm studying Zen, which does not maintain a personified deity as part of it's framework.

What I don't want is the laws of California written according to one particular faith's dictates. And in have seen nothing whatsoever that indicates that Rick Warren would not support having Christianity explicitly written into the law books.

Oh, n...

As for being Gay - if you are, fine - but I don't have to like it, condone it or pat you on the head and tell you that God will forgive you (not that you'd want me to or care if I do). According to my Bible, without repentance, God cannot forgive and it's not my job to do so either.

I'm neither gay nor Christian, and I am married. Personally, I'm studying Zen, which does not maintain a personified deity as part of it's framework.

What I don't want is the laws of California written according to one particular faith's dictates. And in have seen nothing whatsoever that indicates that Rick Warren would not support having Christianity explicitly written into the law books.

Oh, no doubt there would be tolerance and allowances made for those second-tier belief systems (i.e. anyone not lilke Pastor Rick & his ilk).

But quite a few of us don't want to live under a Christian Taliban, and we see Pastor Rick & his ilk as wolves in sheep's clothing in that regard.

To quote George Washington, "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".

That's pretty authoritative, as far as I'm concerned. He was there, I'm sure he would have noticed.

Believe what you want, and mazel tov to you. But when you try to make the rest of us live under laws that conform to your religion's views, it's on and the gloves are off.

Merry Christmas.

"Thou shalt not Kill" = murder
"Thou shalt not bear false witness" = perjury
Too Christian? Too Jewish? Just which laws do you wish to include in your totally secular system?

I call "Bullshit" & "dishonest arguing".

Prohibitions against murder and lying under oath are not unique to the Jewish/Christian tradition, and are present in any society. What they are is consistent with the "equal protection" clause of the California State Constitution.

The drive to not only to deny gay couples the long list of legal rights and responsibilities that come automatically with marriage (inheritance, banking, child custody, end of life decisions,etc.), but to strip those [url="htt...

"Thou shalt not Kill" = murder
"Thou shalt not bear false witness" = perjury
Too Christian? Too Jewish? Just which laws do you wish to include in your totally secular system?

I call "Bullshit" & "dishonest arguing".

Prohibitions against murder and lying under oath are not unique to the Jewish/Christian tradition, and are present in any society. What they are is consistent with the "equal protection" clause of the California State Constitution.

The drive to not only to deny gay couples the long list of legal rights and responsibilities that come automatically with marriage (inheritance, banking, child custody, end of life decisions,etc.), but to strip those already married gay couples of their legal marriages retroactively is rooted in religious bigotry. I challenge anyone to explain to me how that's not the case.

The ones arguing in favor of stripping the already married of their marriages are merely the lowest of the lot. But they're all arguing for something that violate the "Equal Protection" clause.

How noble a stand.

Unless and until there is a check mark on my voter's registration card for religious affiliation, then I will view any vote on any law as civil, secular and non-religious.

I'll take you at your word for that.

Problem is Pastor Rick was preaching to his flock that they should vote in favor of 8.. And there are lots of preachers doing the same. That's waging politics from the pulpit. Doesn't the IRS frown on tax-exempt religious entities doing that?

Religious or not, Prop 8 was about bigotry. All else is window dressing & sophistry.

If religions ruled this country... You can't have it both ways.

Again, dishonest arguing. I never said religion ruled this country, only that some people were trying to write their religions point of view into law , i.e. Prop 8.

Of course it's 'bullshit' and 'dishonest' to you - because it does not agree with your view! But I would remind you that if gay marriage was JUST about 'equal protection', then this wouldn't even be an issue. If 'preaching from the pulpit' was the only way for Prop 8 to pass, then it would have failed miserably - especially in California! If preachers could actually affect a voting outcome, Obama would not be president, abortion would be illegal. People vote their own beliefs - whether religious or not - and they don't want gay marriages to be recognized. That's all. I'm sorry that you don't agree - maybe you should have worked harder to get out the vote, or found preachers who favor ga...

Of course it's 'bullshit' and 'dishonest' to you - because it does not agree with your view! But I would remind you that if gay marriage was JUST about 'equal protection', then this wouldn't even be an issue. If 'preaching from the pulpit' was the only way for Prop 8 to pass, then it would have failed miserably - especially in California! If preachers could actually affect a voting outcome, Obama would not be president, abortion would be illegal. People vote their own beliefs - whether religious or not - and they don't want gay marriages to be recognized. That's all. I'm sorry that you don't agree - maybe you should have worked harder to get out the vote, or found preachers who favor gay marriage (and yes, they are out there). Either way, there is NO WAY that ONE MAN swayed every single voter with his religious views. Let's face it - you don't like him, his beliefs and his church. Fine. Don't hide behind a 'cause' to justify your hate. Be honest and just admit that you can't follow the Zen teachings any more than many other religious people can follow all of their own.