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jklugmanfollowshare
3-23-2008 10:14 AM296 views
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3-26-2008 6:14 PM
willhelm
a very damaging claim being enthusiastically pushed by the wingnuts and the more extreme Obama-haters among the Hillaryites.
damaging? - Yes, if true. If not true, why would it be damaging?

enthusiasticlly pushed? - No one is "enthusiastic" about the racism of Obama's grandmother. I guess it does not serve the writer's point to assume people are genuinely outraged at the petty and cowardly tactic, thus 'enthusiasticlly pushed' gives him some a false point on which to spew his own hatred.
wingnuts and the more extreme Obama-haters among the Hillaryites.
Haters? wing-nuts? extreme? Perhaps they are ignorant. If so, make the case. These words make the entire point ...
3-26-2008 6:16 PM
ratilfar
A clear example of the clip above.
3-26-2008 6:16 PM
willhelm
...to suggest that those who will not vote for Obama are to emotionally immature to understand Obama's speech.

I would be in hysterical laughter if this were not so typically vindictive and hateful.
3-26-2008 7:34 PM
yanceducat
A clear example of the clip above.
Willhelm offers augments and ideas.You offer a one line elitist nose in the air.
3-26-2008 8:59 PM
jklugman
I have gone over the Obama quotation here. I think the record shows that much of the criticism of Obama's speech is unfounded and strains credulity, including the argument that Obama was slamming his grandmother.

The argument that Obama was slamming whites when he referred to his grandmother as a "typical white person" is especially disingenuous, one that relies on selective quotation and memory. People who argue this hope you do not remember that Obama said his grandmother loved him and sacrificed for him, but was susceptible to the racial prejudices of the era she grew up in.

A typical white person--vuln...
3-26-2008 9:12 PM
yanceducat
So the grandmother is the TYPICAL White person. good hearted and sacrificing and all.
Great glad to know us Whites are OK after all!

However that being the case, why is she standing in as a representative for the angry racist tone of Mr Wright?

There is no comparison obviously between grams and the Reverend and so why is he hanging out with Wright since his understanding is clearly that Wright is very WRONG!
3-26-2008 9:21 PM
willhelm
the argument that Obama was slamming his grandmother.
There is no such argument.

The point is that he uses his grandmother's racism to turn the tables away from criticsm of his and his preacher's racism to white on black racism.

Then he goes on to cite (after his speech on unity and national healing mind you) his grandmother's views are typical of white people.

The argument is that he is avoiding the issue by using his grandmother to change the subject and his refusal to denounce his preacher without qualification and clarify that he, himself, is not racist.
3-26-2008 9:21 PM
jklugman
@ yanceducat

* sigh * read the clip.
3-26-2008 9:25 PM
willhelm
"slamming" and "throwing under the bus" mean completely different things. When you throw someone under the bus it means you are highlighting faults in others in order to avoid answering for your own faults. He used his grandmother to avoid the issue of his refusal to address his pastor's racism earlier.
3-26-2008 9:50 PM
jklugman

The point is that he uses his grandmother's racism to turn the tables away from criticsm of his and his preacher's racism to white on black racism.
I don't see how that's possible, given that evidence of Obama's racism is nonexistent (unless you apply Willhelm's bizarro logic that says that racism is transmitted like germs). The evidence for Wright's racism is pretty threadbare too I must say.
3-26-2008 9:53 PM
yanceducat
* sigh * read the clip.
*sigh* I did read the clip.

I am just pointing out the absurdity of what you said

A typical white person--vulnerable to prejudice but deep down kind hearted and capable of loving and caring for a black child.

Only in bizarro-world is this considered a smear against whites
which means it's just plain stupid for him to compare this kindly good hearted White person who is rather benignly slightly racist (if you believe Obama) to the obvious preaching racism in a church Mr Wright!

And why would Obama listen to him for the last 20 years since Wright so misunderstands the TYPICAL White!
3-26-2008 9:58 PM
willhelm
(unless you apply Willhelm's bizarro logic that says that racism is transmitted like germs).
That was funny, JK. I got a kick out of that. We've been through this before and I highly suspect you are being disingenuous at best, or lying.
3-26-2008 10:03 PM
jklugman
Readers can read this clip to see where Willhelm argues that anyone who likes anyone who likes James Hal Cone, who wrote a paragraph that said nasty things about white people, is a racist.

You can judge the logic for yourself.
3-26-2008 10:04 PM
willhelm
Here is the clip where JK and I fleshed this out. I think it shows he is being dishonest.
3-26-2008 10:07 PM
willhelm
Oh good you beat me to the punch. Hopefully clippers will actually read. The clip even got a discussion POP by the way. I do not think the fact JK lies is anything new, however.
3-26-2008 10:09 PM
willhelm
By the way, JK., tell us again what your argument was on that clip.
3-26-2008 10:11 PM
willhelm
Something about Jefferson raped his slaves? Misrepresenting others' views? ad hominem? I forgot.
3-26-2008 10:36 PM
yanceducat
Thomas Jefferson was a slave-owner who raped his slaves, but the Declaration of Independence can't be boiled down to a racist document.
That is one heck of a statement.
I missed even hearing that Jefferson raped his slaves. Rape has a certain meaning so I would like to know the proof of this,

Then it's against you to make a claim of him raping Blacks and then foolishly say the Constitution is not a racist Document when in fact it is just that. It's a lot of good things as well, but allowing slavery and Blacks counting as less than a whole person seems a tad racist to me!
3-26-2008 10:48 PM
jklugman
I missed even hearing that Jefferson raped his slaves.
Uhh...there's fairly strong evidence that Jefferson fathered children with Sally Hemings. And I don't see how consensual sex is possible in such a situation.

Then it's against you to make a claim of him raping Blacks and then foolishly say the Constitution is not a racist Document when in fact it is just that. It's a lot of good things as well, but allowing slavery and Blacks counting as less than a whole person seems a tad racist to me!
If you follow Willhelm's logic, anyone who endorses the Constitution or the Declaration of Independent is automatically a racist, just as anyone who likes James Hal Con...
3-26-2008 10:48 PM
yanceducat
OK you said the Declaration but the Declaration is not a Document that would shed any light on ones racist views. One would hardly condemn the King for the unfairness of his ways and add, but don't worry we promise to mistreat Blacks the same way you mistreat us, only more so.

The Constitution immediately comes out of that and reflects the point that that your comparing an alleged rapist Jefferson who none the less doesn't subscribe to racist views is ill advised.
3-26-2008 10:57 PM
willhelm
JK, I really do not think much of your clarity, but your comments on this thread are to an entirely different level of delusion. Reading the thread of the linked clip will prove you wrong to any rational person. There is no way I claim the simplistic crap you say I claim. It is beyond reproach. It is utterly confused and disingenuous. It can only be that you are a foolish liar trying to manipulate the discussion.

Yance, this is what JK does. Notice, the discussion is not about Obama's racism, it is about a totally unrelated issue now.
3-26-2008 10:59 PM
willhelm
By the way, I remember now what JK's argument was. Obama is not a racist because Haggee supports Israel. Is that close?
3-26-2008 11:15 PM
yanceducat
And I don't see how consensual sex is possible in such a situation.
Of course consensual sex and love can occur in such a situation. Rape is of course a possibility but the relationship was supposed to be an ongoing one I believe, and that would argue against it.

As far as comparing Cone and the Constitution that would be unfair.
The reason I say that is because the Constitution is a compromise among many different parties with very different interests in many cases. So of course one does not have to personally approve of every word in it to believe that it is a good and great Document.

Cone and the relationship between the followers of him I assume has nothing to do with ...
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