You beat me too it, Invictus. I think the fact that this clip itself was immediately hijacked and now appears headed towards the same angry, downward spiral shows that the commenting atmosphere seems antagonistic as of late.

I see nothing wrong with a call for civility in the "public" sphere here. Towards the beginning of Clipmarks, everyone talked about how fun and respectful discussion was here, as opposed to the other social sites. I remember EricG expressed hope that we could set the conversational tone here through positive examples alone.

It's not too late to rise to this goal. We all know there are people with opinions out there we see as antagonistic to our own principles. There wi...

You beat me too it, Invictus. I think the fact that this clip itself was immediately hijacked and now appears headed towards the same angry, downward spiral shows that the commenting atmosphere seems antagonistic as of late.

I see nothing wrong with a call for civility in the "public" sphere here. Towards the beginning of Clipmarks, everyone talked about how fun and respectful discussion was here, as opposed to the other social sites. I remember EricG expressed hope that we could set the conversational tone here through positive examples alone.

It's not too late to rise to this goal. We all know there are people with opinions out there we see as antagonistic to our own principles. There will always be such people and invective-filled attacks on their character only serve to spread pointless hostility and increase future retaliations. According to the way Clipmarks works, the best way to handle such baits and taunts is to ignore them, and let them sink into obscurity.

Now resume fire, if you want...

Wonder where the animosity comes from? Read and Listen to these sorts threats for 10 years- knowing that these people are representing the leadership of your country and are talking about you and generations of your American family- EsPECIALLY if you have native blood and have experienced this kind of violence in real life:

VESTER: "You say you’d rather not talk to liberals at all?"
COULTER: "I think a baseball bat is the most effective way these days." (FOX News Channel, DaySide with Linda Vester, 10/6)


"We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."
- Senator Phil Gramm (R-TX), Mother Jones

And I thin...

Wonder where the animosity comes from? Read and Listen to these sorts threats for 10 years- knowing that these people are representing the leadership of your country and are talking about you and generations of your American family- EsPECIALLY if you have native blood and have experienced this kind of violence in real life:

VESTER: "You say you’d rather not talk to liberals at all?"
COULTER: "I think a baseball bat is the most effective way these days." (FOX News Channel, DaySide with Linda Vester, 10/6)


"We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."
- Senator Phil Gramm (R-TX), Mother Jones

And I think people like Tim Russert and the
others, who gave [Ambassador Joseph Wilson IV] such a free ride and all the media, they're
the ones to be shot."
- Rep. Peter King (R-3rd Dist. NY), Scarborough Country

"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."
- Ann Coulter at the Conservative Political Action Conference, 26 February, 2002

"...I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East, and sending liberals to Guantanamo."
Coulter's syndicated column, Dec. 21, 2005

"I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave
enough so we can have two on every campus - living fossils - so we will
never forget what these people stood for."

- Rush Limbaugh, Denver Post

And people wonder why Liberals step into any online situation armed to the teeth? Are you kidding me? Most are now packing in real life. Any perceived ''liberal tolerance' went out the window the first time Coulter opened her mouth. Get over it.

Godfrey, I haven't seen that many posts from you so I dion't know. But RecordSage, BigBadWolfe, Willhelm and others use demeaning language. It is the truth. They then take offense at angry responses.

It would be nice if Athyrius or I ignored them or managed to NOT take their bait. At one time Bookchick even complimented me for not taking the bait, but I guess I have fallen off the wagon.

It started off with just RecordSage. He was easy enough to ignore. But when 3 and sometimes 4, 5 or more gang up, and use demeaning language, it is just as easy strike out in retailation.

Now you, seem to think it is all my fault for not letting the failure of the Bush administration and other ...

Godfrey, I haven't seen that many posts from you so I dion't know. But RecordSage, BigBadWolfe, Willhelm and others use demeaning language. It is the truth. They then take offense at angry responses.

It would be nice if Athyrius or I ignored them or managed to NOT take their bait. At one time Bookchick even complimented me for not taking the bait, but I guess I have fallen off the wagon.

It started off with just RecordSage. He was easy enough to ignore. But when 3 and sometimes 4, 5 or more gang up, and use demeaning language, it is just as easy strike out in retailation.

Now you, seem to think it is all my fault for not letting the failure of the Bush administration and other rightwing policies drop off Clipmarks. If you don't like my posts, don't read them. I don't read the recipies and I don't attack the posters. I ignore the occassional porn. I expect you do to.

The most recent news is conflicting. The FBI denies that they are looking into Hastert for bribes, but a few days earlier it appeared they were. But, more to the point, sources close to Abramoff say they were getting effective use out of their relation with Hastert. The news story gave the exact details.

It so happens that "bribe" has a common meaning in American English and it has a jargon meaning. The jargon meaning is found in the law books. When you say he was NOT taking bribes, you are saying that he probably cannot be convicted of taking bribes. Since congress has written the laws that define bibes, I really don't care about that meaning.

I am using the common meaning. Here, ...

The most recent news is conflicting. The FBI denies that they are looking into Hastert for bribes, but a few days earlier it appeared they were. But, more to the point, sources close to Abramoff say they were getting effective use out of their relation with Hastert. The news story gave the exact details.

It so happens that "bribe" has a common meaning in American English and it has a jargon meaning. The jargon meaning is found in the law books. When you say he was NOT taking bribes, you are saying that he probably cannot be convicted of taking bribes. Since congress has written the laws that define bibes, I really don't care about that meaning.

I am using the common meaning. Here, it seems more likely he IS taking bribes. The publicly available evidence is that he took campaign contributions in coordination with performing public acts in favor of one of Abramoff's clients. Acts that included sending a letter to a public agency that the agency considered odd.

So, in my opinion, it was bribes. In a world where extreme has become ordinary, one has to say things in sharp ways to get attention.

Absurd assertions... Blatant lie... Gibberish... these are a few selections from your comments, and this is it Godfrey: You can't stand with posts reflecting opinions that looked opposite to yours. You see the right to be sarcastic and aggressive for yourself when commenting on other peoples' posts and you accuse them posting "bombs", mentoning an incitement. What does it mean? Suppose I post a clip here with the most extreme and provocative title, like "Communism is the best for America!" Do you have to mess with it and attack? Everyone has the right to post his/her opinion (unless insulting others) and those posts can be wrong, misinformation, annoying, totally lie... You have other alter...

Absurd assertions... Blatant lie... Gibberish... these are a few selections from your comments, and this is it Godfrey: You can't stand with posts reflecting opinions that looked opposite to yours. You see the right to be sarcastic and aggressive for yourself when commenting on other peoples' posts and you accuse them posting "bombs", mentoning an incitement. What does it mean? Suppose I post a clip here with the most extreme and provocative title, like "Communism is the best for America!" Do you have to mess with it and attack? Everyone has the right to post his/her opinion (unless insulting others) and those posts can be wrong, misinformation, annoying, totally lie... You have other alternatives before choosing the easiest one (to attack): To state your opposition to it in a civilized, acceptable way, or to ignore it. As I told you months ago, I see many clips here, which reflect the ideas and opinions that strongly oppose mine. If I see a point for discussing, I post my comment, if not, I ignore them.

Merican posts information, reflecting his views, worries and opinion. So what? You can do the same. Or if you want to post a comment on his posts, you can easily filter your annoyance or agression. I haven't seen Merican posting aggressive comments on other peoples' clips (correct me if I'm wrong); he just post his own clips. So why is all this hassle?

Waitaminit.....

Are you trying to say that simply posting Ann Coulter clips is going to be viewed as "bad behavior?"

That's simply insane. Has anyone even suggested putting a stop to the posts about things like "10 reasons the Bible is wrong" or "Jesus was gay" or other crap like that?

No. And I'll tell you why. No matter how rude you get, or how hard you bite, or how ignorant you appear to be, most people on the "right" observe and cherish your right to express yourself. The fact is that you hate to be reminded that there are still people out there that have not given in to the popular world view, the humanistic cult of man and man's greatness. That people see through your lies upon...

Waitaminit.....

Are you trying to say that simply posting Ann Coulter clips is going to be viewed as "bad behavior?"

That's simply insane. Has anyone even suggested putting a stop to the posts about things like "10 reasons the Bible is wrong" or "Jesus was gay" or other crap like that?

No. And I'll tell you why. No matter how rude you get, or how hard you bite, or how ignorant you appear to be, most people on the "right" observe and cherish your right to express yourself. The fact is that you hate to be reminded that there are still people out there that have not given in to the popular world view, the humanistic cult of man and man's greatness. That people see through your lies upon lies. That we really ARE angry about it.

Oh man this makes me want to rant about 37 different things. Maybe I'll go post something Anyway, the quickest way to get me to leave is to ban Ann Coulter posts. Vote now. Please.

Invictus, I agree with you on a lot of what you've said in this thread and good for you for starting it, but alas, such is the nature of CM right now that such a thread can only ever descend in, 'well, I did this, and they did that, and I did not do that, and he said, and then she said, and it was nothing to with me, and then they all said so we keeled over and then the sun exploded and it was all everyone's else's fault, so there, and you're all a bunch of freaks.'

I exaggerate, for my own amusement really, but this point has made so often now (particularly this weekend) and it gets nowhere because everyone just goes on the defensive (and, often, the offensive too). Nice try though, and ho...

Invictus, I agree with you on a lot of what you've said in this thread and good for you for starting it, but alas, such is the nature of CM right now that such a thread can only ever descend in, 'well, I did this, and they did that, and I did not do that, and he said, and then she said, and it was nothing to with me, and then they all said so we keeled over and then the sun exploded and it was all everyone's else's fault, so there, and you're all a bunch of freaks.'

I exaggerate, for my own amusement really, but this point has made so often now (particularly this weekend) and it gets nowhere because everyone just goes on the defensive (and, often, the offensive too). Nice try though, and hopefully the point has been made enough now that that most clippers will continue to play nice and CM can return to the fun and interesting place it once was. :/

invictus, you're absolutely right (about this comment area being hopeless) and I'm leaving this anti-American climate with you.

If anyone has any doubts about my words, if you have an open mind and can be reasonable, simply look at the key characters mentioned (including myself of course) and look at their tag clouds, look at their icons and look at their comment headings. It's pretty self-explanatory.

CM guys, please don't take this as any criticism of you - I do think that you've put together a first-class concept and execution. It works really well on the clipping side, because you can totally control its function... the comment side, being totally democratic clearly doesn't work.

If...

invictus, you're absolutely right (about this comment area being hopeless) and I'm leaving this anti-American climate with you.

If anyone has any doubts about my words, if you have an open mind and can be reasonable, simply look at the key characters mentioned (including myself of course) and look at their tag clouds, look at their icons and look at their comment headings. It's pretty self-explanatory.

CM guys, please don't take this as any criticism of you - I do think that you've put together a first-class concept and execution. It works really well on the clipping side, because you can totally control its function... the comment side, being totally democratic clearly doesn't work.

If in real world people can't get along, after thousands of years of evolvement, it certainly makes sense why here they can't either.

I'll certainly come back (hopefully invictus will as well) if you do get the SELF-moderation feature implemented. If not... well, good luck!

I would really like to see where I've posted such vile replies to anyones posts? In fact, if you go back through them, I have pleaded that we be able to discuss these things leaving vile remarks out of it even with Merican attacking my beliefs. Hell, I even congratulated Merican several times for intelligent replies. The ONLY thing I complained about Merican was that he was flooding the site with anti-Bush posts and I was missing other clips I would have been more interested in.

Wow, sorry for expressing my feelings!

The only person on this site I have issue with is Amaruca as she constantly thrown personal insults, rants and name calling which have little to do with the topic. I've lear...

I would really like to see where I've posted such vile replies to anyones posts? In fact, if you go back through them, I have pleaded that we be able to discuss these things leaving vile remarks out of it even with Merican attacking my beliefs. Hell, I even congratulated Merican several times for intelligent replies. The ONLY thing I complained about Merican was that he was flooding the site with anti-Bush posts and I was missing other clips I would have been more interested in.

Wow, sorry for expressing my feelings!

The only person on this site I have issue with is Amaruca as she constantly thrown personal insults, rants and name calling which have little to do with the topic. I've learned to live with it though because now it's actually become comical.

How the hell do I keep getting dragged into these topics I don't even partake of?

Again, I ask if anyone can show that I initiated personal insults, racial remarks and threats, show me.

Self moderation policy suggestion: if you don't dig thetopic/poster, don't read the clip!

• If you think anyone's posting frequency is too high, don't read his/her clips. Continually reading & responding to a clipper that you accuse of such (if only to reiterate your fixed opinion) makes you guilty of your very complaint and suggests that despite everything, you are always interested in what that clipper has to say.
  
• If you think there's too many clips on topic X, pass on by.
  
• If you think clipper Y has repugnant views or is plain offensive, you don't have to engage with them even if on a thread initiated by a 3rd party. However, 10 times out of 10, there's a way to a...

Self moderation policy suggestion: if you don't dig thetopic/poster, don't read the clip!

• If you think anyone's posting frequency is too high, don't read his/her clips. Continually reading & responding to a clipper that you accuse of such (if only to reiterate your fixed opinion) makes you guilty of your very complaint and suggests that despite everything, you are always interested in what that clipper has to say.
  
• If you think there's too many clips on topic X, pass on by.
  
• If you think clipper Y has repugnant views or is plain offensive, you don't have to engage with them even if on a thread initiated by a 3rd party. However, 10 times out of 10, there's a way to attack the view without attacking the person espousing the view
  

I believe a major issue is that "The Clipmarks Experience" right now is very similar for everyone. You come to the Public Clip Exchange and catch the latest. It's pushing everyone into the same place at the same time and you cannot expect everyone to agree on what's being posted and the opinions of commenters.

In our coming upload we are combining the "Mine" and "Board" sections so that everyone has their own home, or a "My Exchange". It will let you truly customize your Clipmarks experience by easily following your clips and your favorite clippers and tags without having to dig through the Public Exchange every time you come to the site.

I truly believe this will help, but I also want to...

I believe a major issue is that "The Clipmarks Experience" right now is very similar for everyone. You come to the Public Clip Exchange and catch the latest. It's pushing everyone into the same place at the same time and you cannot expect everyone to agree on what's being posted and the opinions of commenters.

In our coming upload we are combining the "Mine" and "Board" sections so that everyone has their own home, or a "My Exchange". It will let you truly customize your Clipmarks experience by easily following your clips and your favorite clippers and tags without having to dig through the Public Exchange every time you come to the site.

I truly believe this will help, but I also want to echo Geekette's (and others') sentiments...

If you don't dig the topic/poster, don't read the clip!

There are so many cool people and so much cool stuff being clipped that if you come across something or someone that gives you negative vibes, it's just best to ignore it or them.

Clipmarks is going to continue to grow and it's always going to be impossible for everyone to get along, but there will always be a group of clippers you enjoy connecting with. I think it's best to engage with them and let the others have their own space. There's room for everyone.

If anyone has any other thoughts about this please email me at adam@clipmarks.com I would love to handle this issue in a private manner and keep the Clipmarks experience about interesting clips and conversations. Clip on

Clipmarks is going to continue to grow and it's always going to be impossible for everyone to get along, but there will always be a group of clippers you enjoy connecting with. I think it's best to engage with them and let the others have their own space. There's room for everyone.

If anyone has any other thoughts about this please email me at adam@clipmarks.com I would love to handle this issue in a private manner and keep the Clipmarks experience about interesting clips and conversations.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comment, and I hope Clipmarks will ride out this storm before implementing any policies or flagging.

After all, it may only be weather, and weather is n...

Clipmarks is going to continue to grow and it's always going to be impossible for everyone to get along, but there will always be a group of clippers you enjoy connecting with. I think it's best to engage with them and let the others have their own space. There's room for everyone.

If anyone has any other thoughts about this please email me at adam@clipmarks.com I would love to handle this issue in a private manner and keep the Clipmarks experience about interesting clips and conversations.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comment, and I hope Clipmarks will ride out this storm before implementing any policies or flagging.

After all, it may only be weather, and weather is notoriously impossible to control.

I hope we all manage to maintain a good attitude about this whole experience. It must be some kind of "coming of age" ritual that has to happen to all public fora on the web at some point or other.

I hope also that in the process of defining whatever policies eventually get put into place, that the effort put into that policy is consistent with the long term vision for Clipmarks!

I can only imagine the level of urgency all these conversations have given to this topic. From my point of view, the Clipmarks conversation is still VERY CIVILIZED, and that you might consider that all this talk stems from FEAR that the wonderful atmosphere of Clipmarks will degenerate.

Clip on!

Geekette said:

Self moderation policy suggestion: if you don't dig thetopic/poster, don't read the clip!

* If you think anyone's posting frequency is too high, don't read his/her clips. Continually reading & responding to a clipper that you accuse of such (if only to reiterate your fixed opinion) makes you guilty of your very complaint and suggests that despite everything, you are always interested in what that clipper has to say.
* If you think there's too many clips on topic X, pass on by.
* If you think clipper Y has repugnant views or is plain offensive, you don't have to engage with them even if on a thread initiated by a 3rd party. However, 10 times out of 10, there's a w...

Geekette said:

Self moderation policy suggestion: if you don't dig thetopic/poster, don't read the clip!

* If you think anyone's posting frequency is too high, don't read his/her clips. Continually reading & responding to a clipper that you accuse of such (if only to reiterate your fixed opinion) makes you guilty of your very complaint and suggests that despite everything, you are always interested in what that clipper has to say.
* If you think there's too many clips on topic X, pass on by.
* If you think clipper Y has repugnant views or is plain offensive, you don't have to engage with them even if on a thread initiated by a 3rd party. However, 10 times out of 10, there's a way to attack the view without attacking the person espousing the view

There's only one problem with this. You miss out on some potentially wonderful point of views.

If there's an interesting clip, one that is being intelligently debated, the potential for enlightenment, diversification and tolerance is astounding. People can gain new insight to a problem, they can change their mind on issues and they can see obstacles in a completely different light.

Add one venomous commentor, and it can all go away. Why? Well, even if I "ignore" this commentor, that doesn't mean everyone will do the same. So, the comment thread gets hijacked, and the fruits of rational yet dissimilar thinking never come to bare.

Sure I can ignore clippings from these flamers, and I do. But comments are a completely different story.

Like weeds in a garden, they do more than just clutter the rows and obscure the view. They actually choke potential life from the legitimate blooms.

It may be a theoretically acceptable idea to ignore problem commentors, but that's like avoiding the garden entirely. Sure I'll avoid the weeds... but I'll also miss the flowers.

Add one venomous commentor, and it can all go away. Why? Well, even if I "ignore" this commentor, that doesn't mean everyone will do the same. So, the comment thread gets hijacked, and the fruits of rational yet dissimilar thinking never come to bare.

Like weeds in a garden, they do more than just clutter the rows and obscure the view. They actually choke potential life from the legitimate blooms.[/quote]Very well said, knslyr. You captured my sentiments exactly. Too many users seem to be unable to ignore clips they disagree with and jump to derail these clips through scathing insults rather than contribute any knowledgeable discussion.

t may be a theoretically acceptabl...

read more»

Add one venomous commentor, and it can all go away. Why? Well, even if I "ignore" this commentor, that doesn't mean everyone will do the same. So, the comment thread gets hijacked, and the fruits of rational yet dissimilar thinking never come to bare.

Like weeds in a garden, they do more than just clutter the rows and obscure the view. They actually choke potential life from the legitimate blooms.[/quote]Very well said, knslyr. You captured my sentiments exactly. Too many users seem to be unable to ignore clips they disagree with and jump to derail these clips through scathing insults rather than contribute any knowledgeable discussion.

t may be a theoretically acceptable idea to ignore problem commentors, but that's like avoiding the garden entirely. Sure I'll avoid the weeds... but I'll also miss the flowers.

The result of such actions and the inevitable counterattacks they invite is a Pyhrric victory only and a loss for everyone here.

(Hmm...that usually doesn't happen. Re-do.)

Add one venomous commentor, and it can all go away. Why? Well, even if I "ignore" this commentor, that doesn't mean everyone will do the same. So, the comment thread gets hijacked, and the fruits of rational yet dissimilar thinking never come to bare.
Like weeds in a garden, they do more than just clutter the rows and obscure the view. They actually choke potential life from the legitimate blooms.

Very well said, knslyr. You captured my sentiments exactly. Too many users seem to be unable to ignore clips they disagree with and jump to derail these clips through scathing insults rather than contribute any knowledgeable discussion.[quote...

(Hmm...that usually doesn't happen. Re-do.)

Add one venomous commentor, and it can all go away. Why? Well, even if I "ignore" this commentor, that doesn't mean everyone will do the same. So, the comment thread gets hijacked, and the fruits of rational yet dissimilar thinking never come to bare.
Like weeds in a garden, they do more than just clutter the rows and obscure the view. They actually choke potential life from the legitimate blooms.

Very well said, knslyr. You captured my sentiments exactly. Too many users seem to be unable to ignore clips they disagree with and jump to derail these clips through scathing insults rather than contribute any knowledgeable discussion.

It may be a theoretically acceptable idea to ignore problem commentors, but that's like avoiding the garden entirely. Sure I'll avoid the weeds... but I'll also miss the flowers.

The result of such actions and the inevitable counterattacks they invite is a Pyhrric victory only and a loss for everyone here.

Out of respect to Eric and the "pop only" thread, I've addressed your comments here:

Rifkala said:

I know only pops where requested and this sentiment may make me extremely unpopular among the clipmarks community, but I feel the need to express my dissent.

In some very real ways the internet and sites like clipmarks offer some of the only truly free press available. It's a way in which information can be archived as well as the liberated dialougue concerning what is being archived. As is the case with any community, there will be those who will have more or less charisma. There will be those that disagree and threaten the well being of the rest of the community. There will be those that w...

Out of respect to Eric and the "pop only" thread, I've addressed your comments here:

Rifkala said:

I know only pops where requested and this sentiment may make me extremely unpopular among the clipmarks community, but I feel the need to express my dissent.

In some very real ways the internet and sites like clipmarks offer some of the only truly free press available. It's a way in which information can be archived as well as the liberated dialougue concerning what is being archived. As is the case with any community, there will be those who will have more or less charisma. There will be those that disagree and threaten the well being of the rest of the community. There will be those that will offend or entertain or just sit on the stoop and watch. But to me the freedom in the dialogue and the integrity of the site that maintains and preserves that dialogue is what is of primary importance.

I can't see that one or even fifty clips trailed by 100 stupid comments is worth compromising that.

knslyr said:


Add one venomous commentor, and it can all go away. Why? Well, even if I "ignore" this commentor, that doesn't mean everyone will do the same. So, the comment thread gets hijacked, and the fruits of rational yet dissimilar thinking never come to bare.

Fifty clips of poisonous comments is fifty (multiplied by number of irrelevant comments) pieces of spam.

In an age where information overload is becoming more of a problem, the last thing I need is to wade through 50% off-topic-venomous comment CRAP just to get an intelligently verbalized dissenting opinion.