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Efrain Alvaradofollowshare
12-10-2008 11:54 PM
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12-12-2008 12:25 AM
tommy2balmy
Efrain,
I don't like to attack people's beliefs. I support the freedom to believe. I think each person has the right to believe in any religion or in none at all.
I do not believe in any religion including atheism. Although I don't believe that God exists, I do not know the answer absolutely. It is perhaps possible there is some sort of force that could be defined as God. Thus I consider myself an agnostic.

Bear in mind I am not a "true" atheist so perhaps I am not the best to respond to your points.
My impression is that you want your opinion to be known and you feel strongly that your faith and belief system is correct. There is nothing wrong with that-confidence in your beliefs is a g...
12-12-2008 2:03 AM
JohnWaterman
This is just one strawman after another. They invent what atheists think and believe and then argue against it.

This atheist simply requires evidence before believing outlandish stories.. Remind me again why you do not believe in Thor or, if you like monotheism, why you don't believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster or Mazdâ (the god of Zarathushtra). This is a serious question. You'll probably find that the reasons you don't believe in these deities are similar to the reasons I don't believe in yours.


They also blame theists for doing bad things in ways they do not
blame other creatures. Tapeworms and televangelists both exploit other creatures, but at...
12-13-2008 10:01 AM
Efrain Alvarado
Please do not misunderstand this clip as a hateful attack on people's beliefs. I don't know if you have read the entire article series, but it came about in response to various claims made from atheists on basically the view of incoherence between theism and science and/or reason. As a theist myself, I agree with Shea that belief in God is not incongruent with science and reason.

I absolutely agree with you on the point that everyone has a right to their own belief system but one also has the right to speak up when one's beliefs are being attacked. Of course not in a hateful manner but in a respectful dialog, criticizing the actual ideas and not the person.

This not a front to force other...
12-13-2008 10:13 AM
Efrain Alvarado
I don't like to attack people's beliefs.
I personally did not take offense on your clip but it does state otherwise: http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/90E74B46-5519-4316-A536-0791CE47AA14/

I try not to tell anyone how they should believe.
But when you tell me that I should be a Catholic/Christian you are asking me to tell you why you should not be one.
I did not take offense because I understand you are only stating your point of view. I did not feel like, "you were telling me what to believe" or that, "I was being forced into atheism or agnosticism." It simply was a point of view and didn't feel it was any sort of attack.

There is a difference in...
12-13-2008 10:38 AM
Efrain Alvarado
BTW, in your opinion is not believing in any god worse than believing in the wrong god(s)?
That's a good question, although it is a general one. I would have to say no. It is a general question but I am reminded of pagan sects who sacrificed their children to their gods. I do not see atheists sacrificing their own young in the name of atheism. In this case worshiping the wrong gods is a greater evil.

But I am also reminded of this three part article series on materialism. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that there different "denominations" of atheism, but my focus here is on materialism. Steering off topic, but if one holds a materialistic world view and thi...
12-13-2008 12:45 PM
willhelm
They invent what atheists think and believe and then argue against it.
It might help if one chooses to partake of a normal vocabulary and understand the difference in agnosticism and atheism. One is absolutely and necessarily a faith. The other is an attempt to bury your head in the sand and seek gratuitous lame-ness with a healthy dose of confirmation bias.

But that's just my opinion and NOT me forcing my views on others as is the required prerequisite for any self-respecting materialist.
12-13-2008 1:40 PM
lifecyce1898
1st abandon all reason
2nd reinvent reason with pseudo logic
3rd waste of time
12-13-2008 1:58 PM
Snaggle
It might help if one chooses to partake of a normal vocabulary and understand the difference in agnosticism and atheism.
This is a good point. I'm not sure if I understand the difference properly.

I don't believe in gods, astrology, souls, fairies, all that stuff. And I call myself an atheist. But I am not taking a position. How can not taking a view be regarded as "a faith"?

You don't believe in lots of stuff as well. I will not try to label you for your lack of belief.
12-13-2008 2:44 PM
willhelm
But I am not taking a position.
Then, you are agnostic. If you assert there is no God, then you are an Atheist. I cannot prove God exists and you cannot prove God dose not exist. We each set our feet in the position that our mind and reason lead us. My reason (logic), knowledge, and evidence leads me to believe God exists. You either (A) believe God does not exist based on reason, logic, knowledge, and/or evidence you consider, which makes you an atheist, or you choose to take no position on existence/nonexistence, which would make you agnostic. It's really very simple to most. Though, I have to constantly remind myself who we are dealing with here.
12-14-2008 12:13 AM
tommy2balmy
Efrain,
Thank you for thoughtful answer. I agree completely with your statement regarding respectful dialogue. To be clear, I have never found you to be hateful, or to make mindless or personal attacks.

I don't like to attack people's beliefs.
I'd like to believe this is still true. But that clip of mine you pointed out was certainly an attack on some peoples beliefs. I thank you for the lesson in humility.
1-30-2009 12:00 PM
echolawrence
I'm sorry but neither reason stated by St. Thomas have anything to do with why I don't believe in a god.
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