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Interesting; are more women left handed? (Debby is) predisposition does not negate choice. Some people ar predisposed to have OCD, ADHD,or be alcoholics, but this does not mean that they SHOULD follow their natural bent- IF indeed it is actually a natural bent and not just bent nature. I assume from your comment that you would condone a school "encouraging" right-handedness. Pitiful. Anyone who believes that gay people choose to be gay really doesn't have a clue about much of anything. Well said Bear. I'm assuming you are heterosexual rvnurse, so I would like to ask you how you can say being gay is a choice when you are not gay yourself? In other words, since you have never known what it is like to be gay, how can you presume to make such a judgment? "Some people ar predisposed to have OCD, ADHD,or be alcoholics, but this does not mean that they SHOULD follow their natural bent-" OCD, ADHD, and alcoholism are disorders. Homosexuality is not a disease or a disorder. You're comparing apples to puppies. "predisposition does not negate choice." There is some truth there. I have made a choice in an adult parnter. All my straight friends chose their partners as well. Assuming you were predisposed 'heterosexual', at what age did you choose your sexuality; to be straight or gay? I made a choice to be with a man because society told me nothing else was normal. Let's not forget species choice. Just because you are predisposed to Homo sapiens doesn't mean you have to follow that path. Grow feathers and learn to fly! Thank you rvnurse2b for clearing that up. You sure are learning a lot in nursing school. rvnurse2b predisposition does not negate choice. ...but this does not mean that they SHOULD follow their natural bent- IF indeed it is actually a natural bent and not just bent nature.Let's suppose that it IS purely choice. And let's also suppose that they DO follow that choice. And let's also suppose that it's an UN-natural bent. Let's suppose that ALL the accusations are true! My question is: if it doesn't harm anyone, and both consenting adults receive great pleasure from it (on any number of levels, but for now just plain overt sexual pleasure)... What exactly would be the problem? (Be specific.) Yes, why is heterosexuality the only right choice? I mean, obviously I can see this whole thing being turned into some "moral" issue. And I believe rvnurse has every right to believe that homosexuality is morally wrong for her. Everyone has to follow their beliefs, but that doesn't give them the right to deny basic human rights to a whole group of people because of their particular belief system. Some might believe I am going to hell for eternity because I have "chosen" to have same sex attractions, but I know better. I know that I was like this from a very young age and I tried to do the right thing by society by making a conscious decision to chose what they said was "normal." So, if... debbyski / rvnurse2b "I mean, obviously I can see this whole thing being turned into some "moral" issue."I can see how sex with a child is immoral. There is direct harm, on many levels. I can see how rape is immoral. There is direct harm, also on many levels. I can see how incest is immoral. There is direct harm to offspring even if consensual by adults. Thus immoral. I can see all kinds of ways sex can be immoral. But somebody tell me where's the HARM (read immorality) in consensual adult sex between like genders? Who got harmed, and how? If there is no HARM, by what measure can it be considered immoral? I don't get it. Well, quite frankly Aces, I don't see where it is anyone's business what two consenting adults do in their own bedroom as long as they are not harming anyone, but having said that, I cannot tell rvnurse what to believe either. She has that freedom. What she does not have is the right to discriminate against gays in any way, shape or form. That is simply wrong. She can choose to not associate with gays in her personal life if she finds their orientation not personally acceptable to her, but she cannot carry that into her professional or public life. She can characterize gays as being immoral if she likes and she can believe that if she likes just like someone can believe the world is fla... WOW I have a lot of comments to catch up on! ok Deb. I have a tendency to be bi. yes I am saying that and yes it is true, and yes I have done that. It was a CHOICE to ACT not a choice to FEEL that way. BUT- and here is the thing- 1.homosexuality does not produce offspring- this tells me that it is not natural for human beings. 2. I believe there is order to the universe, there is a God who has the right to decide what is right and wrong for me and everyone else- because it belongs to him ( I only say him because that is how this being is described in the bible-'he' could be OTHER) 3 I believe that the information about right and wrong is contained in the Bible for the most part- the being wh... bartending- handedness does not effect biological processes or spirituality and therefore- NO. queah- Main Entry: 1dis·or·der Pronunciation: ()dis-rd-r, ()diz- Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): dis·or·dered; dis·or·der·ing /-rd-(-)ri/ : to disturb the regular or normal functions of and also disorder /dis·or·der/ (dis-or´der) a derangement or abnormality of function under the actual medical definition of disorder, many things could be considered as such. Homosexuality has historically been thought of to be a disorder- it changes a normal biological process- reproduction. deb- there is no wrong for me but right for you. it is wrong or it is right. truth is not something that changes with your opinion or lifestyle choices. raping a child would be wrong- always not ok for a certain group of people because they believe it is ok for them, but you don't have to believe it BS. If you belive you have a million dollars and the bank says you AINT GOT IT- you do not have it no matter how much you believe it. oh- and what basic human rights have I advocated taking away? and going to hell is not predetermined by your sexual actions. however, a regenerate spirit will change certain behaviors- the behavior change is the result of being saved, not the source of it. for those of you wondering about my past I also did drugs, drank, was engaged in the occult, survived and left A cult...endured emotional, sexual, and physical abuse, grew up with a bi-polar mother..... 1.homosexuality does not produce offspring- this tells me that it is not natural for human beings.Then to be intellectually honest with this statement marriage should not occur unless the woman becomes pregnant and if all offspring die the marriage should be ended. I know many people that are married and not having children, either by choice or circumstance. 2. I believe there is order to the universe, there is a God who has the right to decide what is right and wrong for me and everyone else- because it belongs to himI believe the universe just is and it follows basic laws of physics. I have no reason to believe it was created by some being especially if I'm... I'm very confused by your "logic" rv. The fact that you have been subjected to bad actions by others, made choices which were wrong for you, and then made different choices means that you have the choice and right to make choices for others? BS. Your conclusions of action to made by others is based solely upon YOUR beliefs and nothing more. Where is it written that YOUR beliefs trump the beliefs others have in how they conduct their lives? What if I believe that you should perform a mortal sin (whatever the hell that is) every morning to test your salvation? I surely have no more right to enforce my belief upon you than you do yours upon those who feel most natural in their homosexuality. ... Rvnurse, I guess I could argue the biblical approach on why homosexuality is not a sin, but it would probably be a waste of our time. I appreciate your thoughtful response though. All I have to say is that I didn't make a choice to be primarily gay. I can't imagine a God that would make me this way and then ask me not to act on it. I've tried to be a good person all my life and do what was expected of me and quite frankly, it's taken it's toll. I'd like to say in closing that one day I wish for a society that would be more accepting of those who are different instead of forcing others to be "normal." It would be a happier society IMHO. And I'm talking about consensual adult sex here. ... Mmmm......I had a NDE when I was eight. I wonder if people having N......oh, never mind. This "growing research suggesting that being gay is not a choice" rather surprises me. Considering, it's been "growing" for over 30 years now, and Psychiatrists have considered Homosexuality to be genetic for over 20 years. The proof is in the brain, not one's position in their family and characteristics that can also be environmental as well as genetic. With all due respect to everyone participating in this conversation, this is a non-issue....catch up. There are over 450 known species, from insect to mammal, that exhibit and practice homosexual behavior. [See: Seed Magazine, The Gay Animal Kingdom, by Jonah Lehrer] The fact that so many other species of life also exhibit homosexual behavior, means homosexuality could not be considered "unnatural." It is a demonstrable fact of nature, and therefore by definition, natural. And from a biblical perspective: 1. didn't god create these animals too? 2. doesn't god also say that believers in other gods should be stoned to death? Do you agree with god on this? 3. have you ever ate shrimp or crab? All abominations! The pen... The fact that so many other species have a significant percentage of Homosexuals lends to the theory that Homosexuality could be a naturally occurring form of population control. A study was done that took the percentage of Homosexuality of different species and figured the consequences of those populations without the homosexual element. It was found that in most cases, given the environment, overpopulation would occur resulting in starvation, death and in some cases, destruction of the species itself. And the rights I am talking about are the rights to everything else heterosexuals take for granted. Like marriage, not having to be worried about losing your job or expelled from the military. And little things, and I know what I'm talking about here because I can walk through the park holding my husband;s hand and get smiles from everyone, but let me try to do the same thing with a woman and I get called a f****** lesbian over an innocent public display of affection. I can hold my husband's hand in a restaurant, but I wouldn't dare try the same thing with a woman here. (Try under the table) After awhile, it has a negative effect on you, just like you better be one tough cookie (and mos... ditto I'm a lesbian though and I'm not tough. Actually I'm slightly to the femme side of right down the middle....I can't help it, I'm just me being me. The really funny thing about the celebration of hetero relationships is how very many of them fail. Are there any reliable statistics about the durability of gay life-commitments? I don't believe so but having been around for awhile I can honestly say that the length of our relationships are getting better as public acceptance improves. I can't begin to tell you how much stress is put on two people when their parents, family, friends, co-workers and even God (if they buy into that) don't want them to be together. Parents and family are the hardest. You have to come out to each one of them eventually and it can be a real nightmare. Children get disowned by their parents, and on down the line. My theory is that most Gays are still deeply in the closet. We don't really know how many their are of us. My first relationship, which I believe would still be intact if not for ... I hate to say this Bear, but I think it affects gay's relationships who have had to be closeted. I mean, in the sense that they don't have an adolescence to have worked through and when they do come out the world can be their candy shop. I'm not saying that to take away from the fact that their are plenty of committed relationships, but I feel like it's a factor with commitment for some. Source The divorce rate in America for first marriage, vs second or third marriageDivorce among religious groups is significantly higher than divorce among agnostic and atheist groups with the Christians leading the pack. People that talk the loudest may be the ones walking the slowest. Joining its history of Biblically correct bigotry and discrimination, it is an area with the highest divorce, murder, STD/HIV/AIDS, teen pregnancy, singl... Debbyski, Believe it or not, the pain and suffering that gay's relationships who have had to be closeted is the same as those not closeted. Each relationship, each break up, has to be worked through. Each time is like the first time. There has been as much as 10 years of celibacy between my relationships because I was afraid of getting hurt again. Being Gay is never a candy shop and adolescence is the time when we are most likely to commit suicide. Breaking up is like losing a lover through death. There are no words. When I see this happening to someone, I can only hold my hand out in support. I know that at the time it means little to them. I wish I could make their hurt go away. I know what you mean Chestnut. I meant that some gays have stunted adolescence because of not being able to act upon their feelings during that critical time. It's like society says this is the "good" way and this is the "bad" way, and they make it so difficult to be different. That's wrong. Deb, I respect you so much for being honest and forthright as you can be. I know that not all choices are easy ones. You are a very sweet person, and I am glad to know you. I just don't agree with you on some things, which are not basic to being a Christian. You don't have to be fixed up all perfect to be His child. Being his Child gives you supernatural ability to change...even though some things will not change over the course of a lifetime, and some will change immediately and some will take struggles. Your view of homosexuality is that we were made this way purposefully by God. Mine is that we were created in a fallen and imperfect world, messed up by sin- just as people born with some ... Thank you so much rvnurse. I so much appreciate your kind words. It is my sincere hope that people can learn and grow by knowing others and I know in my case it is true. I like to think that people are brought into others lives for a reason. Always. I hope I have made some difference on Clipmarks on perceptions and also I aspire to be a positive influence as a person who happens to be different whether we agree or not.  |
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