I'm not sure he's a "Marxist", but certainly socialist. That's nothing new. His association with certain people are facts, not smears. Does he share their views? Only he knows that, but what we do know is that he ain't messiah, he associates with a number of people that are racist, to put it mildly. Disassociating with those publicly, after years of association is nothing but political expediency, only the dumb/blind wouldn't see that. He certainly seems to be consistent in trying to distance himself from a number of people, even claiming they aren't the people he knew, like that somehow changes anything.

Well, hopefully we won't be making the same comment if he's elected... ie "that'...

I'm not sure he's a "Marxist", but certainly socialist. That's nothing new. His association with certain people are facts, not smears. Does he share their views? Only he knows that, but what we do know is that he ain't messiah, he associates with a number of people that are racist, to put it mildly. Disassociating with those publicly, after years of association is nothing but political expediency, only the dumb/blind wouldn't see that. He certainly seems to be consistent in trying to distance himself from a number of people, even claiming they aren't the people he knew, like that somehow changes anything.

Well, hopefully we won't be making the same comment if he's elected... ie "that's not the President we elected originally"... which won't do much good in that instance either. But, perhaps we won't have to, if people just use their brains and examine the reality of substance, instead of fainting if the words 'hope' and 'change' are repeated enough times...

It's very cute when one hears 'being a socialist isn't a bad thing', especially someone who lived under socialism. Clearly, ratiflar, you have NO idea, if you can make such a hopelessly erroneous statement.

As for racist comments - you must be deaf somehow, if you listen to rev. Wright and don't get that sense. Heck, associating with farakahn and praising him tells plenty, but you probably don't feel that he's a racist either.

The media absolutely killed Hillary and for no good reason I might add. They have this ridiculous awe of the guy, without any merit. They said all kinds of crap against her, but gave him a pass on just about anything negative he's done (and there was plenty to gi...

It's very cute when one hears 'being a socialist isn't a bad thing', especially someone who lived under socialism. Clearly, ratiflar, you have NO idea, if you can make such a hopelessly erroneous statement.

As for racist comments - you must be deaf somehow, if you listen to rev. Wright and don't get that sense. Heck, associating with farakahn and praising him tells plenty, but you probably don't feel that he's a racist either.

The media absolutely killed Hillary and for no good reason I might add. They have this ridiculous awe of the guy, without any merit. They said all kinds of crap against her, but gave him a pass on just about anything negative he's done (and there was plenty to give him hell over). But you probably feel that both of them were treated equally in the press as well. You had people fainting, if you can believe that, during the man's speeches and you want to tell me the guy didn't reach some idiotic cult-like stature? Perhaps Obama campaign intentionally cut air in those gatherings, so people wouldn't be able to use their brains effectively and thus the faintings...

What he's written has only limited relevance at this point. He has been going to that church for 20 years, that's a fact. He has defended his relationship with the old rev, stating he cannot disown him due to a,b,c... a week later doing just that. He had associations with known US terrorists (you want to tell me he was unaware somehow, especially considering the fact that those very terrorists are STILL proud of what they did, in fact sorry they didn't cause more harm). Now this rezko deal comes out and he says that's "not the guy I knew"... what is he - a 5-yr old child? He's certainly acting there like one. My 4-yr old has more credibility.

If you want to tell me the man can speak well - I'll give you that. But that's NOT what makes a great man or a great President, not even close. You've only scratched a surface with this guy and there are all kinds of lice undernea

I was not talking about one party rule, but democratic socialism, which I had lived under my whole life and so has most of Western Europe and Canada. So no I was not talking about that extension of scientific socialism, Marxist, Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist or any totalitarian extension of socialism. Puppies do cute, I don't.

As fro racism, I didn't see anything in Rev. Wright that was racist, unless the truth somehow becomes racist. Mentioning race and the realities of race in America does not make one racist. As for Farrakahn, you got to give me more than word of mouth here, I haven't seen any connection between the two Obama and Farrakahn ( the later I consider a nutjob and an anti-sem...

I was not talking about one party rule, but democratic socialism, which I had lived under my whole life and so has most of Western Europe and Canada. So no I was not talking about that extension of scientific socialism, Marxist, Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist or any totalitarian extension of socialism. Puppies do cute, I don't.

As fro racism, I didn't see anything in Rev. Wright that was racist, unless the truth somehow becomes racist. Mentioning race and the realities of race in America does not make one racist. As for Farrakahn, you got to give me more than word of mouth here, I haven't seen any connection between the two Obama and Farrakahn ( the later I consider a nutjob and an anti-semite). I think he tried to do the right thing but Wright decided that it was his way or the high way. I for one should not have done it since I happen to agree with the core message of those clips shown.

Hillary was the favorite and the media said so. She was the anointed one. As for giving Obama a pass, how many times did they ran Wright vids again? The media thrives on gossip, no matter who it is.

As for the "20 years..." thing, I am a Catholic, so am I responsible for everything that the Pope(s) have said? I certainly don't agree with the Church on many things, the Pope does not speak for me, and Wright did not speak for Obama. Funny thing is that nobody has really disputed Wright's claims (as flamboyant and offensive as they appear to be and I can understand why).

People fainting in his rallies? Have you ever been to a concert or other mass gathering? You would be surprised at who and what (and why) people faint in such situations. Don't confuse the dynamics of crowds with the person giving the speech.

No, it's not 'evil', but no question that it doesn't work. I don't know where you experienced socialism and as whom (i.e. as a native of the country or an American visitor - the two are vastly different experiences), but as sohil accurately pointed out - it sucks, to put it mildly. The forced redistribution of wealth is a terrible idea on many levels and even if socialism isn't communism - it's just one little step below.

In terms of wright - truth? what truth? The crap he spewed - he has any evidence of the accusations at hand? Any? Not that I've seen. As for his 'racism' or not - simply take one of his sermons, swap the words 'black' with 'white' and see if you find it racist. I t...

No, it's not 'evil', but no question that it doesn't work. I don't know where you experienced socialism and as whom (i.e. as a native of the country or an American visitor - the two are vastly different experiences), but as sohil accurately pointed out - it sucks, to put it mildly. The forced redistribution of wealth is a terrible idea on many levels and even if socialism isn't communism - it's just one little step below.

In terms of wright - truth? what truth? The crap he spewed - he has any evidence of the accusations at hand? Any? Not that I've seen. As for his 'racism' or not - simply take one of his sermons, swap the words 'black' with 'white' and see if you find it racist. I think this guy would be condemned to no end if such words were spoken in that context. How about being anti-American? Do you agree with that label for him? Probably not... but I challenge you to explain to me how a statement like 'G*d damn America', in church no less, can be looked at as anything but anti-Americanism. You just need to put your ideology aside for a second and listen - it's not a stretch to see what's what.

The farakhan deal you described pretty accurately, which of course begs the question - why would you associate with someone like that or not question your spiritual leader who praises someone like that? I sure the heck would, provided my sentiments on the subject were in the right place.

And as for people being mesmorized with the man - it's nothing new, been shown all over the place. And yes, I've been to huge crowds, much larger than he got and didn't faint, even when Sir Paul himself was entertaining me on stage. And no matter what one thinks of Obama, he is no McCartney, but some apparently raised him on a similar pedestal, undeservingly so.

The biggest problem with socialism is the fact that few think they know better, and 10 times out of 10 - they don't. That's why America should steer away from socialism and socialists and in this case - Obama

"Yes we can" is meaningless, because a) it doesn't mean 'yes we will', which is what actually matters and b) it could mean 'yes we can screw up our and world economy', 'yes we can screw up this great country of ours', 'yes we can get a lot more people killed than the 4000 we already lost by doing something stupid, like pulling the troops out of Iraq' and on and on. Change may sound good and it certainly could be good, but it also could be bad or worse. Change for the sake of the word is both dangerous and could be devastating. The Obama camp chants those words as if they somehow have any substance behind them.. unfortunately for them (and the rest of us) - they do not. Oh yes, and there'...

"Yes we can" is meaningless, because a) it doesn't mean 'yes we will', which is what actually matters and b) it could mean 'yes we can screw up our and world economy', 'yes we can screw up this great country of ours', 'yes we can get a lot more people killed than the 4000 we already lost by doing something stupid, like pulling the troops out of Iraq' and on and on. Change may sound good and it certainly could be good, but it also could be bad or worse. Change for the sake of the word is both dangerous and could be devastating. The Obama camp chants those words as if they somehow have any substance behind them.. unfortunately for them (and the rest of us) - they do not. Oh yes, and there's the old 'hope', another word used so many hundreds of times... which of course is different for different people, who either have it or not.. Hope isn't something someone gives you... and whatever Obama tries to imply there - he's talking about himself, not me. The things that he 'hopes' for are what I would classify as 'wishful thinking', nothing more, since there's no way without totally killing our economy - he could ever dream to deliver on those. He's touching on utopia and as much as I respect US resources - there aren't enough to deliver such utopia for 300 million plus that live here. That's reality, despite of how much everyone would like to believe him.

And as for your reference to the Pope - you haven't been going and interacting with the man, so you're comparing apples to oranges. The Pope hasn't baptized your kids or married you, so the relationships you describe aren't comparable on the same level.

And what do we know about Obama other than 'hope', 'change', 'yes we can'... his past with rev. wright, father pflager, rezko etc. (from external sources I mean, not from his books and speeches) ? Well, not much, possibly because after year and a half of campaigning - he's still waiting to release such info... or possibly because there isn't much

@RS

You can not interchange "White" with "Black". That is part of the point. Wright speaks of a power structure based on race. A power structure that exist not only in the U.S. but in all of the Americas. Since blacks (and by black he means non-white) are minorities they lack the power to oppress others. It has been the white majority (western Europeans, in the U.S. Anglo-Americans protestant males, not any one individual) that has created and exploited the system, a system that while it has been reformed, remains still fundamentally unchanged (although an Obama/Hillary election could help change that, emphasis on the could).

As for Farrakhan, Obama denounced him multiple times. Guilt by ...

@RS

You can not interchange "White" with "Black". That is part of the point. Wright speaks of a power structure based on race. A power structure that exist not only in the U.S. but in all of the Americas. Since blacks (and by black he means non-white) are minorities they lack the power to oppress others. It has been the white majority (western Europeans, in the U.S. Anglo-Americans protestant males, not any one individual) that has created and exploited the system, a system that while it has been reformed, remains still fundamentally unchanged (although an Obama/Hillary election could help change that, emphasis on the could).

As for Farrakhan, Obama denounced him multiple times. Guilt by association can go so far. As for my comparison, who do you think commands the church and makes policy on communions, abortion, reproductive rights, ect. The Pope. You don't stay to long in the church by ignoring the "Son of Peter". Also the whole 20 years thing, does anyone have copies of all of Wright's sermons?

As for being anti-American, criticizing America does not make one anti-American. After all didnt' the U.S. use WMDs in Japan and firebomb cities in Japan and Germany? Supported oppressive regimes such as South Africa's apartheid regime (the change in policy happened slowly and painfully fought all the way by the Republicans under Reagan) and sides completely with Israel financing it's the IDF in full and tacitly agreeing with Israeli policies that have harmed Palestinians, Lebanese (Rice even said that the Israelis should continue their attacks last summer and the U.S. rearmed the IAF mid-conflict with CBUs) and Israelis (many Israelis detest the settlers and the settlements for many reasons).

If "Damming America" makes you anti-American, then you would have to thrown in the bunch many a right-wing preacher and even Martin Luther King jr. in the mix.

Cont...


In fact his sermon was about the need to think before going off to war recklessly. That even when the Bible calls for blood, Christians should not give in into that temptation and that while the people who suffered the attacks on 9/11 are victims, the goverment of the United States can not claim to be wholly innocent. It's policies in places like Afghanistan led to that tragedy. In other words, violence begets violence.

The one thing nobody has denounced is his use of the pulpit to advocate for a candidate. That is a clear violation of IRS rules, yet...crickets....

I think it was they way he spoke that scared and angered a lot of people. I understand why it may upset people. Tho...

Cont...


In fact his sermon was about the need to think before going off to war recklessly. That even when the Bible calls for blood, Christians should not give in into that temptation and that while the people who suffered the attacks on 9/11 are victims, the goverment of the United States can not claim to be wholly innocent. It's policies in places like Afghanistan led to that tragedy. In other words, violence begets violence.

The one thing nobody has denounced is his use of the pulpit to advocate for a candidate. That is a clear violation of IRS rules, yet...crickets....

I think it was they way he spoke that scared and angered a lot of people. I understand why it may upset people. Those are powerful, challenging words, filled with righteous anger. I am glad that these things came to light. If Americans really wanted to discuss race and their own history they would dissect that sermon word for word and see where it comes from and what it really says.

No surprise that we disagree... my point about swapping white & black would clearly show 'racist-type' remarks, power structure or not. The fact that he denounced farakhan is also useless (in my view), just as it was useless for pflager to totally dis Hillary the way he did. I think the man needs to find someone who can adjust his skin color so he doesn't hate his so much... then of course he apologized and just as Obama's denouncement - it's useless. These are adults, they know exactly what they're doing, who they associate with and what they say. Spewing bunch of garbage and apologizing for it doesn't quite do it, certainly does nothing for me. If wright advocates thinking first, I'm ...

No surprise that we disagree... my point about swapping white & black would clearly show 'racist-type' remarks, power structure or not. The fact that he denounced farakhan is also useless (in my view), just as it was useless for pflager to totally dis Hillary the way he did. I think the man needs to find someone who can adjust his skin color so he doesn't hate his so much... then of course he apologized and just as Obama's denouncement - it's useless. These are adults, they know exactly what they're doing, who they associate with and what they say. Spewing bunch of garbage and apologizing for it doesn't quite do it, certainly does nothing for me. If wright advocates thinking first, I'm assuming that everything he has has been thought through beforehand, i.e. no excuses.

As cool as it sounds these days - nobody went to war 'recklessly'. The WW2 example you're bringing up is a totally different story. You're talking about a war situation. Should we have used this new technology that saved a few hundred thousand lives and finished this miserable (for everybody) war? It depends on one's point of view. Personally, I think ending it sooner and saving those few hundred thousand was the right thing to do, although I certainly understand and appreciate the other side of this situation.

Besides, if you think about it - what was the man trying to say? That wars are bad and we've used the weapons we had before... and that's somehow suppose to be the reason for 9/11? You buy into this nonsense?

I don't believe his rhetoric 'scared' anyone, but certainly opened many people's eyes as to what kind of stuff Obama was listening to for years. And that's a big problem for him, it would've been lethal problem, in my opinion, if it came out sooner. And as for their IRS-related status - people don't make a big deal about it because it isn't (although I agree with you that they should definitely be accountable for not sticking to the rules).