1. The proverb is a statement against the economic use of nature, especially in context of an advanced, fractal-like paradigm of the free market.
2. The logic fails because economic use of renewable resources and nature insures the health of the environment and nature. Think about how many millions of chickens are consumed daily. MILLIONS. They will never be extinct. Yet Panda, elephants, gorillas, etc are going extinct. They have no other value other than our interest in maintaining their survival for naturalistic reasons. Capitalism preserves.
3. If you look at former materialist systems..fascism, communism, etc... They have no consideration for the environment because there is no econo...

1. The proverb is a statement against the economic use of nature, especially in context of an advanced, fractal-like paradigm of the free market.
2. The logic fails because economic use of renewable resources and nature insures the health of the environment and nature. Think about how many millions of chickens are consumed daily. MILLIONS. They will never be extinct. Yet Panda, elephants, gorillas, etc are going extinct. They have no other value other than our interest in maintaining their survival for naturalistic reasons. Capitalism preserves.
3. If you look at former materialist systems..fascism, communism, etc... They have no consideration for the environment because there is no economic need. The Soviet Union and China were and are environmental wrecks.

Ok, now I understand what you tried to say. Thanks for explaining. Although I might differ in thoughts and views, or if you like, in perceiving plain facts, I always find it more useful to understand what exactly the difference in opinion or definitions might be, than to start defending my grounds. That at least enables me to learn.

Maybe the title is indeed questionable; i would think the Cree had / were some sort of economy too, even if merely based on trade and agreements. If they depended heavily on bison as a multipurpose source it wouldn't be in their interest to let the population shrink. As far as I know, the strong decline of bison during certain period was disastrous for many nati...

Ok, now I understand what you tried to say. Thanks for explaining. Although I might differ in thoughts and views, or if you like, in perceiving plain facts, I always find it more useful to understand what exactly the difference in opinion or definitions might be, than to start defending my grounds. That at least enables me to learn.

Maybe the title is indeed questionable; i would think the Cree had / were some sort of economy too, even if merely based on trade and agreements. If they depended heavily on bison as a multipurpose source it wouldn't be in their interest to let the population shrink. As far as I know, the strong decline of bison during certain period was disastrous for many native tribes. One could argue that this was partly due to the economic system of those tribes, relying on goods as a value of trade, instead of using a more abstract and liquid medium of exchange like money. I believe every economic system purely based on trade, has its weak spot in the representation of unstable quantity of consumption goods as a economic quantity (a store of value).

If I take this principle to, let's say, communistic systems, were higher demands for goods is not necessarily answered by market supply, the preservation of goods and sources will indeed not be economically interesting, as it is just very loosely related to stored value, regardless of the moral or ethical considerations. So that would be the opposite extreme.

Ok, I'll stop here before my thoughts run too wild
If you have more thoughts to share, please feel free to do so. I'm always open to good conversations. Cheers.

Well my issue is with this statement you made "There are more trees in America today than any time in our histroy." It's not even possible considering how much cities and farmland have covered over what used to be forests. New York for example.

Also, city water I wouldn't consider necessarily clean either since it has chemicals added to it. And rivers really are polluted with factory waste.

But actually I do agree that forest fires should be left to burn out on their own. There are certain trees that depend on fire to spread their seeds for one thing. And if you look at Mexico, they don't do firefighting and their forest fires burn out much more quickly and over smaller areas. The ve...

Well my issue is with this statement you made "There are more trees in America today than any time in our histroy." It's not even possible considering how much cities and farmland have covered over what used to be forests. New York for example.

Also, city water I wouldn't consider necessarily clean either since it has chemicals added to it. And rivers really are polluted with factory waste.

But actually I do agree that forest fires should be left to burn out on their own. There are certain trees that depend on fire to spread their seeds for one thing. And if you look at Mexico, they don't do firefighting and their forest fires burn out much more quickly and over smaller areas. The very reason forest fires in North America get so big and widespread is because the practice of putting them out allows flammable material (there's a specific word for it I can't think of now) to build up. Although I do think the proverb was referring more to clear-cutting, which is a real problem.

Thanks for explaining. Although I might differ in thoughts and views,
or if you like, in perceiving plain facts, I always find it more useful
to understand what exactly the difference in opinion or definitions
might be, than to start defending my grounds. That at least enables me
to learn.

Janclip1300, Clarity is more important than agreement I always say. My intentions are not to persuade, per se. Thanks.

jmatts, your problem is your sense of scale. Cities and urban sprawl are such a small percentage of total area that it pales in comparison. I'm glad there is agreement with me on the forest fire issue. A much better policy would be to cut out brush to decrease intensity ...

Thanks for explaining. Although I might differ in thoughts and views,
or if you like, in perceiving plain facts, I always find it more useful
to understand what exactly the difference in opinion or definitions
might be, than to start defending my grounds. That at least enables me
to learn.

Janclip1300, Clarity is more important than agreement I always say. My intentions are not to persuade, per se. Thanks.

jmatts, your problem is your sense of scale. Cities and urban sprawl are such a small percentage of total area that it pales in comparison. I'm glad there is agreement with me on the forest fire issue. A much better policy would be to cut out brush to decrease intensity and involve resources toward preventing spread to inhabited areas. Forest fires are a natural cycle and they contribute to a next generation forest that is even more robust.

But my intention was not so much about the fires as it is the results and successes free market economies in protecting the environment. In fact, as much as I believe global warming is bunk, which it is without a doubt, there is a lot of credit to due to environmentalists for awareness.....the difference in the Left and Right on environmental issues really is not that wide of a gap. The Right loves the environment just as much as the Left. In fact, those on the right probably have more awe, love, and outdoor involvement than those on the Left. We just generally disagree with using environmental issues and propaganda to bring about redistributive change.

Common ground is easily found if your not hopelessly lost like socratoad, and maintain a firm commitment to division and intolerance.

lollipop, In the 3 plus years I've used clipmarks, I can count on 1 hand the number of times someone has changed their opinion on something. Only a couple of times am I aware of someone changing their ideological outlook.
Here are some rules I live by in my comments.
1. clarity is more important than agreement.
2. persuasion is not my intent.
3. I may be wrong, but it is not logical to think I am wrong until it is logically proven that I am wrong.
4. truth, perception, and honesty is more important than feelings and etiquette.
5. Do unto others.... ( and this is much more complex than most people think ). Objectively we would want someone to beat the stew out of us if we were dispossessed o...

lollipop, In the 3 plus years I've used clipmarks, I can count on 1 hand the number of times someone has changed their opinion on something. Only a couple of times am I aware of someone changing their ideological outlook.
Here are some rules I live by in my comments.
1. clarity is more important than agreement.
2. persuasion is not my intent.
3. I may be wrong, but it is not logical to think I am wrong until it is logically proven that I am wrong.
4. truth, perception, and honesty is more important than feelings and etiquette.
5. Do unto others.... ( and this is much more complex than most people think ). Objectively we would want someone to beat the stew out of us if we were dispossessed of our senses and intent on doing harm to someone. Ignorance can be overcome. Willful ignorance, intolerance, and bigotry is akin to one being dispossessed of their senses.

This is what i get from the clip:
-the huge differences between their culture and ours
-the way that the Native Americans lived in tune with the land, and respected it
-the way that they found uses for everything
-they lived simply (yes, i know it was out of necessity) and needed little
-i would also guess that they were trying to point out the error of our ways, but without researching how old the proverb is, i can't say that for sure
Willhelm, as far as i am concerned, you came on this clip and made it ALL ABOUT YOU. (I would put that in italics but that feature doesn't seem to be working, so no I am not yelling at you) Very clever by the way. You throw in the odd thing, such as, ...

This is what i get from the clip:
-the huge differences between their culture and ours
-the way that the Native Americans lived in tune with the land, and respected it
-the way that they found uses for everything
-they lived simply (yes, i know it was out of necessity) and needed little
-i would also guess that they were trying to point out the error of our ways, but without researching how old the proverb is, i can't say that for sure
Willhelm, as far as i am concerned, you came on this clip and made it ALL ABOUT YOU. (I would put that in italics but that feature doesn't seem to be working, so no I am not yelling at you) Very clever by the way. You throw in the odd thing, such as, "use your brain," which implies that someone is stupid, but then if anyone says anything to you, you cry foul. Hmmm, I had an ex that used to pull the same stuff. Reply if you want, but i'm done with this clip.
@ Socratoad, thanks again for posting this. It's a proverb that I have always liked, and it has always got me thinking.

lollipop, How exactly did I make it about me? I made a comment about the inept logic of the proverb. That is it. Since then, I have been attacked by you, janclip, jmatts, socratoad, and brightlight 4, NONE of whom offered the slightest bit of perspective or useful contribution to the substance of the clip or response to my comment. How did I respond to that?...... Refer to my comment 9/24 - 7:16...I respectfully made a simple and humble request that remained open to the fact that my argument was invalid.

Name one thing I said that was wrong. I may be wrong, but it is not logical to assume that I am.

Then, You come along and accuse me of making the clip about me? How so?

Ho...

lollipop, How exactly did I make it about me? I made a comment about the inept logic of the proverb. That is it. Since then, I have been attacked by you, janclip, jmatts, socratoad, and brightlight 4, NONE of whom offered the slightest bit of perspective or useful contribution to the substance of the clip or response to my comment. How did I respond to that?...... Refer to my comment 9/24 - 7:16...I respectfully made a simple and humble request that remained open to the fact that my argument was invalid.

Name one thing I said that was wrong. I may be wrong, but it is not logical to assume that I am.

Then, You come along and accuse me of making the clip about me? How so?

However, I appreciate your perspective, but it does not counter the fact of my points. All cultures are not equal and humans are no different today than they were then in terms of greed, desire, and any other various sins.

"They found uses for everything"? What?

Here:

but at least have one that uses some basic reasoning.

here:

Use your brain for goodness sake.

here:

insults the intelligence of any rationally thinking person.

here:

If it is not an insult to your intelligence, well then, that pretty much says it all.

here:

Common ground is easily found if your not hopelessly lost like socratoad

I could go on, but actually it's too much of a pain in the rear. I've got lot's of tabs up on my computer so it's slowing everything right down, and i'm not closing them all just to make it faster.
These are all veiled insults, and you threw the first one with the basic reasoning comm...

Here:

but at least have one that uses some basic reasoning.

here:

Use your brain for goodness sake.

here:

insults the intelligence of any rationally thinking person.

here:

If it is not an insult to your intelligence, well then, that pretty much says it all.

here:

Common ground is easily found if your not hopelessly lost like socratoad

I could go on, but actually it's too much of a pain in the rear. I've got lot's of tabs up on my computer so it's slowing everything right down, and i'm not closing them all just to make it faster.
These are all veiled insults, and you threw the first one with the basic reasoning comment--a veiled insult by implying that (whoever it was) didn't have basic reasoning. You did make many good comments, but you made it all about you when you started throwing the insults, but then turned it around on people if they answered back. I unclicked for getting responses, but i guess i didn't save it which is why i am answering you.
They used everything in nature, and everything in animals, such as their urine (for tanning), brains (for tanning as well, and eating if i remember correctly) their eyeballs, their balls, their hide, their stomach. You're smart Willhelm, i'm sure you know what i mean when i say they used everything.
Anyway, as i said, i'm done. Now i've unclicked and i remembered to save.

That's how I made it about me? OK, lollipop,There is not one damn thing wrong with any of those comments I made, taken in context and intended objectively. They are observational and true. I have attacked no one the way you have attacked me. I'll just accept that you are contentious, bigoted, and unwilling to have engaging exchanges.
1. I made my points clearly without attacking anyone. Yet, I have been attacked.
2. I demonstrated my willingness to accept that I may be wrong and requested information. Yet, I was attacked and no one offered anything - only attack.
3. I achieved a point of respectful dialogue with janclip, and we respectfully departed neither convincing the other, agreeing...

That's how I made it about me? OK, lollipop,There is not one damn thing wrong with any of those comments I made, taken in context and intended objectively. They are observational and true. I have attacked no one the way you have attacked me. I'll just accept that you are contentious, bigoted, and unwilling to have engaging exchanges.
1. I made my points clearly without attacking anyone. Yet, I have been attacked.
2. I demonstrated my willingness to accept that I may be wrong and requested information. Yet, I was attacked and no one offered anything - only attack.
3. I achieved a point of respectful dialogue with janclip, and we respectfully departed neither convincing the other, agreeing to disagree and respecting that our clarity was more important that convincing the other.

The fact that you have limited knowledge of the normal actions of socratoad and others handicaps you a bit, but making such rash assertions about me on a clip where the verbal assaults have all been toward me highligts the fact that you are bit contentious and intolerant of other views.