<<However, if you cannot see both sides of the argument, then you are making a case for intolerance.>>

Willhelm, you are correct. We need to see both sides and I do understand how a parent might feel when their child comes home one day and, while grabbing a coke, says "Oh Mrs. LadyTeacher told us about masturbation today!" That would be a jolt for a parent who had not approached that particular subject with their child;I can appreciate the knee jerk reaction.

Where my southern blood turns to tabasco is when this group of parents goes 'Mob Crazy' and demands "Criminal Charges"!

I can just see a group of protesters all waving signs while chanting "We don't Jerk-Off! We don't Jerk-off" in ...

<<However, if you cannot see both sides of the argument, then you are making a case for intolerance.>>

Willhelm, you are correct. We need to see both sides and I do understand how a parent might feel when their child comes home one day and, while grabbing a coke, says "Oh Mrs. LadyTeacher told us about masturbation today!" That would be a jolt for a parent who had not approached that particular subject with their child;I can appreciate the knee jerk reaction.

Where my southern blood turns to tabasco is when this group of parents goes 'Mob Crazy' and demands "Criminal Charges"!

I can just see a group of protesters all waving signs while chanting "We don't Jerk-Off! We don't Jerk-off" in unison.

Look, I love my country; born and raised in Louisiana. But what message, what deep subconscious message, are we sending to young adults when we show them that 'some' sexual acts are state approved and others are serious enough to warrant criminal charges brought against a Sex-Ed teacher for even discussing it; IN SEX ED!

Think about the message...oral sex, homosexuality and masturbation - the mere discussion of it - will land a person of authority in jail if parents have their way!

Now ask yourself...which sexual subjects over the last 10 years have been pushed into the mainstream via celebrities, Magazines, Movies and other sources of information?

Masturbation
Oral Sex
and Homosexuality

So its OK for celebs to endorse these...just fine for any magazine to boast on their cover "Blow his $%$! and Blow His Mind!" But let a Sex-Ed teacher try to approach the subject from an intellectual point of view and?

---Evil! Potential Pedophile! Crucify her! Burn Her!---

No wonder our teens are running around dealing with guilt complexes and identity crisis.

Yes...I'm ranting. I apologize. ;o) I was raised in a Christian home with a brother who is a minister so I know the damage that sexual guilt and confusion can have on someone.

Blah....now I need some Malox.

Damien

I agree completely, Digital - for example, I grew up in a very conservative, Christian home (Southern baptist then Non-Denominational/'Spirit-Filled') and I was taught from the get-go that masturbation was evil and a sin that you could go to hell over (that was when it was even mentioned at all!) Due to some family issues (2 step-fathers & a step-brother) in my home, I learned about the 'darker side' of sex and masturbation at the very young age of 3 - after that it was like a light bulb went on and I was awakened to my own sexuality. I can remember finding myself and feeling pleasure as early as 5 (in the bathtub, no less - my mother walked in on me and went NUTS and told me how dirty and s...

I agree completely, Digital - for example, I grew up in a very conservative, Christian home (Southern baptist then Non-Denominational/'Spirit-Filled') and I was taught from the get-go that masturbation was evil and a sin that you could go to hell over (that was when it was even mentioned at all!) Due to some family issues (2 step-fathers & a step-brother) in my home, I learned about the 'darker side' of sex and masturbation at the very young age of 3 - after that it was like a light bulb went on and I was awakened to my own sexuality. I can remember finding myself and feeling pleasure as early as 5 (in the bathtub, no less - my mother walked in on me and went NUTS and told me how dirty and sick that was...so I learned from then on to do it in private behind locked doors). Anyway, I spent my entire childhood and youth feeling so utterly dirty and guilty and it only made my emerging sexuality more confusing and harder to deal with. I developed a fear of intimacy, connection, commitment, physical attention and affection - I even panicked if I was given a gift or trinket from a boy (I usually broke up with them shortly after!) I can't tell you how many church meetings I would sit in the back in fear and panic, in utter terror that the pastor/preacher/visiting evangelist would call me out and say "YOU - in the back! You are going to hell! You are dirty and sick and disgusting! You MASTURBATE! How could you!!!" I just KNEW it was only a matter of time before my secret was out and I would be ostracized and humiliated for my sins. And the sad thing is that I was just maybe 12 or 13.

No one told me it was normal, or okay, or that maybe my tainted views and hang-ups relating to love, sex and my own self esteem stemmed from something as 'small' and simple as not being told the truth about my body - all in the name of religion or morality or some stupid way my culture and even my family thought I needed to be 'raised'.... (continued below)

....and now that I am 30 and have been in a wonderful (and completely committed) relationship for over 13 years (and we plan on having children of our own very soon), my ideas have changed and grown (thankfully!) My soul mate helped me get past my hang-ups and issues with love, patience, understanding & an uncommon strength that is hard to find these days - but I was a lucky one.

So many other millions of people go through their lives in fear, confusion, frustration, guilt and anger and never find a way out. They aren't lucky enough to connect with the few out there who are comfortable in their sexuality & can help them become comfortable with their own. And in turn, they marry someone who...

....and now that I am 30 and have been in a wonderful (and completely committed) relationship for over 13 years (and we plan on having children of our own very soon), my ideas have changed and grown (thankfully!) My soul mate helped me get past my hang-ups and issues with love, patience, understanding & an uncommon strength that is hard to find these days - but I was a lucky one.

So many other millions of people go through their lives in fear, confusion, frustration, guilt and anger and never find a way out. They aren't lucky enough to connect with the few out there who are comfortable in their sexuality & can help them become comfortable with their own. And in turn, they marry someone who is as screwed up, confused and dysfunctional sexually and emotionally, & either they get divorced (which only adds *another* brick in the wall) or they have kids and pass on (usually unknowingly) the same traits - the same fears, guilt, lies, bitterness, anger, self-hatred, low self esteem and confusion about their bodies - that they themselves have. And the cycle keeps going.

And those parents in the article above are doing just that. In their own fear, guilt and confusion to confront their own issues that they have lived with for decades, they force it onto their children (no one likes to be miserable alone, right? Who can stand being around someone happy when you feel like shit-on-a-stick?)

So they do what they only know how to do - pass it on. Continue the cycle of shame. It worked for them, so why won't it work for their kids? Besides, to allow their children to become someone comfortable with their own sexuality & their own bodies would mean that the adults are the ones in the wrong and they would either have to change & evolve or be confronted and reminded on a daily basis of their own misery, shame & the confusion & guilt from a lifetime of self-denial, hiding, or just never finding comfort & peace with their own bodies. Never knowing acceptance. What a waste.

<<This is why it is impossible to communicate with the narcissistic, intellectually trapped Left.>>

Willhelm, I completely respect your opinion, but honestly, when is an 'issue' ever really about that issue, and that issue alone? Everything is connected, one way or another. Everything leads to everything - in one big circle. Cause and Effect - plain and simple. Call it the Butterfly Effect or the Domino Effect, but what starts small gains speed and motion and soon snowballs and encompasses everything.

As far as parental rights - I completely agree that parents should have the right to decide what their children learn and are taught. Now, where I make my point is that what if a parent decid...

<<This is why it is impossible to communicate with the narcissistic, intellectually trapped Left.>>

Willhelm, I completely respect your opinion, but honestly, when is an 'issue' ever really about that issue, and that issue alone? Everything is connected, one way or another. Everything leads to everything - in one big circle. Cause and Effect - plain and simple. Call it the Butterfly Effect or the Domino Effect, but what starts small gains speed and motion and soon snowballs and encompasses everything.

As far as parental rights - I completely agree that parents should have the right to decide what their children learn and are taught. Now, where I make my point is that what if a parent decides their child should no longer live on this planet. They have a right to take a child that they brought into the world and remove them, right? I mean, it was no one else's decision to bring the child into this world....but we would all (or mostly all) agree that that is not an option - you don't kill your kid because you have the right to bring them in so you can take them out.

That's a radical example but my point is that where do you draw the line between a parent's right to do what they want or think is best for their child and what is a faulty or flawed way of thinking on the parent's part?

Does this make any sense? I guess what I'm saying is that while I'm all gung-ho on parental rights, I'm also gung-ho on the child's rights - the freedom to think for themselves, to believe what they choose to believe, to learn and experience what they want to learn and experience.

Why should a teacher be condemned for answering questions that the children are asking? Are they not asking these questions because they WANT to know - they NEED to know - and no one is telling them the truth. The truth is not "you're too young - I'll tell you when you get older..." or "because I say so, that's why!" How does that help a child grown and learn and think for themselves?

Are not the children holding up signs saying - "hey wait! WE asked the questions!!!"

LISTEN to our kids - they are trying to tell us something! We wonder where the youth of this world is headed and what went wrong - and they are standing here in front us trying with all their might to tell us! To ask us, to trust us to tell them the truth or confirm what they already feel inside. And when our guilt, religion, shame, fear - whatever - gets in the way, we only push them further away from us and down the same road we ourselves went.

As for this not being connected to parents' rights - how could it not be? How can you separate one from the other. Does a parent have the right to teach their chi...

Are not the children holding up signs saying - "hey wait! WE asked the questions!!!"

LISTEN to our kids - they are trying to tell us something! We wonder where the youth of this world is headed and what went wrong - and they are standing here in front us trying with all their might to tell us! To ask us, to trust us to tell them the truth or confirm what they already feel inside. And when our guilt, religion, shame, fear - whatever - gets in the way, we only push them further away from us and down the same road we ourselves went.

As for this not being connected to parents' rights - how could it not be? How can you separate one from the other. Does a parent have the right to teach their child to hate? Technically yes. They do it all the time. Is it the best thing for the parent to do? No. Does it benefit the child? No. Does it benefit our society? No.

How is that any different than discussing masturbation and sexuality in relation to what parents' are 'allowing' their child to learn or be exposed to?

By the way - I am not left, nor right. I am not a democrat nor am I a republican. I stand for freedom, honesty and truth - as noble and as grandiose as that may make me sound, my point is that my views and perceptions don't point left or right - for one party or the other. I think everyone has their own right to teach their children what they see fit, but I also say in the same breath that we as parents and as a society need to wake up and realize that we do not always (actually, rarely) teach the pure and honest truth as it is - stripped of all 'morality' - of all politics, religion, and rose-colored views. And when we question what has happened to the youth of the world today, we have no one but ourselves to blame. If we want the right to teach our children, then stand up and do it the right way - what's best for them - not you. If parents have the right, then they also accept the blame. It's a two-way street, people.

digitalsistere. I basically agree with your initial comment on an intellectual level. Where I do not agree is taking the next step of being the intolerance you seem to object to.

First, fearbased mentality? That is your subjective opinion of those taking issue. There are many things I think you and I would both object to having our children indoctrinated by. So do not begrudge someone else for their view.

Second, You have no clue whether the parents objecting were the parents of the kids asking the specific questions in question. You do not know whether the parents you claim are irresponsible are the ones of the children left with these questions.

Third, you do not know the specific nat...

digitalsistere. I basically agree with your initial comment on an intellectual level. Where I do not agree is taking the next step of being the intolerance you seem to object to.

First, fearbased mentality? That is your subjective opinion of those taking issue. There are many things I think you and I would both object to having our children indoctrinated by. So do not begrudge someone else for their view.

Second, You have no clue whether the parents objecting were the parents of the kids asking the specific questions in question. You do not know whether the parents you claim are irresponsible are the ones of the children left with these questions.

Third, you do not know the specific nature of the entirety of the discussion. Perhaps there were some things discussed in a classroom setting that were inappropriate for some. Seeing as how you understand that maturity and intellect differ among a specific poplulation.

Fourth, views on masturbation are irrelevent to the discussion. This should be about the views of the nature and responsibility of educators. I suggest when educators master the abilitry of teaching children how to read, write, and subtract, then they can move on to the heady stuff.

Fifth, There is no such thing as tolerance, just different targets. The comments here prove that.

Sixth, Do you know what this particular school's or district's policy is on sex education? I don't either. Maybe there were some blatant violations. If that is the case, then perhaps some action against the teacher is warranted.

Seven, Why do you care that the State assume the role of this responsibility when it is not the State's responsibility. Are you a fascist?

Eight, This clip is not about sex or maturbation when you get right down to it. It is about parents being able to exercise full authority in the rearing and moral clarity of their children.

Nine,

"Oh my! What has happened to our youth? Where have we gone wrong?"

You do not fix things by making p

.>>First, fearbased mentality? That is your subjective opinion of those taking issue.<<

Willhelm,
Off course it's a fear based mentality, you don't think that is self evident? What was the core motivational driver behind these parents responses? Anger? Betrayal? Name any negative emotion and it will be an extension of fear.

Anger that my child was told something I do not approve of: Is it anger or fear of what may come from your child knowing something you as a parent, do not approve of? Fear of where the knowledge made lead. If there were not a core of fear we would not see such potent reactions. These parents reacted so strongly, because they were afraid of what this could mean or do t...

.>>First, fearbased mentality? That is your subjective opinion of those taking issue.<<

Willhelm,
Off course it's a fear based mentality, you don't think that is self evident? What was the core motivational driver behind these parents responses? Anger? Betrayal? Name any negative emotion and it will be an extension of fear.

Anger that my child was told something I do not approve of: Is it anger or fear of what may come from your child knowing something you as a parent, do not approve of? Fear of where the knowledge made lead. If there were not a core of fear we would not see such potent reactions. These parents reacted so strongly, because they were afraid of what this could mean or do to their preferred way of life. I am not saying this in and of itself is wrong, it's natural to protect that which you love. What I am responding to, is HOW they are wanting to handle this situation. Which is to push 'criminal charges' against the teacher.

Let's say that you are the child and I the state approved teacher whose job it is to educate to the best of my ability. If I approached you and instigated a sexual conversation without permission from you and your parents, then I would be abusing my role as authority figure and temporary guardian. I would be invading and influencing your life without prior invitation.

On the other hand ---

If you approached me and asked a sexual related question, within the context of let's say Sex-Ed class...then wouldn't I be failing in my role as an authority figure and teacher by 'not' answering your question, seeing that I am charged with the responsibility to teach you to the best of my ability? Is masturbation sexual? Is homosexuality sexual? Is oral sex, sexual? If so, then where better to address said subjects than Sex-Ed class?

More responses on the way.
DS

Of course it's a fear based mentality, you don't think that is self evident?

OK. Well at least we are the root of our difference. And in what is the fear based?

Name any negative emotion and it will be an extension of fear.

That is blantantly manipulative. But taken to it's logical conclusion I can only assume you are admitting your own fear. Negative emotions exist outside of fear. Most fear is irrational, true enough, but not unnecessary. I would not want a school to train my child to strap bombs to themselves and blow-up innocent people. Fear has nothing to do wiht that position. It is value-based. And the list goes on...

It seems to me , then, that you ...

Of course it's a fear based mentality, you don't think that is self evident?

OK. Well at least we are the root of our difference. And in what is the fear based?

Name any negative emotion and it will be an extension of fear.

That is blantantly manipulative. But taken to it's logical conclusion I can only assume you are admitting your own fear. Negative emotions exist outside of fear. Most fear is irrational, true enough, but not unnecessary. I would not want a school to train my child to strap bombs to themselves and blow-up innocent people. Fear has nothing to do wiht that position. It is value-based. And the list goes on...

It seems to me , then, that you are the one expressing fear. If there are parents concerned about this issue then it is probably due to the fact that their value-systems have been violated. That is a point of being offended. These are moral grounds. Is there a fear that you have about people having a moral grounding?

If you approached me and asked a sexual related question, within the context of let's say Sex-Ed class...then wouldn't I be failing in my role as an authority figure and teacher by 'not' answering your question, seeing that I am charged with the responsibility to teach you to the best of my ability? Is masturbation sexual? Is homosexuality sexual? Is oral sex, sexual? If so, then where better to address said subjects than Sex-Ed class?

That's really not for you to say. The school board clearly has some rules on the issue. It's called liberty and democracy. If you have an issue, then you should take it up with the board. I'm sure the teacher was aware of the rules.

Anyway, It ...

If you approached me and asked a sexual related question, within the context of let's say Sex-Ed class...then wouldn't I be failing in my role as an authority figure and teacher by 'not' answering your question, seeing that I am charged with the responsibility to teach you to the best of my ability? Is masturbation sexual? Is homosexuality sexual? Is oral sex, sexual? If so, then where better to address said subjects than Sex-Ed class?

That's really not for you to say. The school board clearly has some rules on the issue. It's called liberty and democracy. If you have an issue, then you should take it up with the board. I'm sure the teacher was aware of the rules.

Anyway, It is clear to me now where we differ and it is not my intent to change your mind, or anyone's mind for that matter. The more important thing is knowing how and why we differ.

I trust individuals, parents, and families. You trust committees, teachers, and the status quo.

I see people protecting their rights and values, you see authority placed in the state.

I see a moral issue, you see a cultural issue.

I see parental rights, you apparently support subjugation.

I see a protection of values, you see fear.

I see an issue of rights, you see an issue of sex.

I see an issue about liberty, you see one of social control .

That is blantantly manipulative. But taken to it's logical conclusion I
can only assume you are admitting your own fear. Negative emotions
exist outside of fear. Most fear is irrational, true enough, but not
unnecessary. I would not want a school to train my child to strap bombs
to themselves and blow-up innocent people. Fear has nothing to do wiht
that position. It is value-based. And the list goes on...

Blantantly manipulative? How so? I am completely lost as to how you find what I said manipulative.

As far as admitting my own fear...of course I am. I have a lot of fears. Are you saying you don't?

I trust individuals, parents, and families. You trust committees, te...

read more»

That is blantantly manipulative. But taken to it's logical conclusion I
can only assume you are admitting your own fear. Negative emotions
exist outside of fear. Most fear is irrational, true enough, but not
unnecessary. I would not want a school to train my child to strap bombs
to themselves and blow-up innocent people. Fear has nothing to do wiht
that position. It is value-based. And the list goes on...

Blantantly manipulative? How so? I am completely lost as to how you find what I said manipulative.

As far as admitting my own fear...of course I am. I have a lot of fears. Are you saying you don't?

I trust individuals, parents, and families. You trust committees, teachers, and the status quo.

Actually, it's the opposite Willhelm. I have a natural distrust for any
organized group who tries to create social limitations and control.
Again, how did you draw this conclusion except that it is easier to
place me in a box, draw your protective line in the sand, and not have
to actually answer a legitimate question with a legitimate answer.

Each time I have asked you a
question that might require some internal reflection to answer...you
have resorted to labeling me. I am curious as to why that is? Afraid of something?

I see people protecting their rights and values, you see authority placed in the state.

Again, I am confused. It's possible that during our discussion I might have worded something incorrectly. But in such a way as to entice you to this opinion? I don't think so. Funny thing, is I am 'so' anti state and government control. I offered an example situation whereby we could observe this discussion from different points of view. You apparently took this as an indication of my total world view and belief structure. Similar the parents we are discussing.

Notice how you attempted to label me 'fascist' when I merely offered a friendly challenge to your statements? Why?

Notice how you attempted to label me 'fascist' when I merely offered a friendly challenge to your statements? Why?

I've not done that, but you cleverly have. Bravo. I'm just attempting to find how and why we differ and suggesting how that is. You are the one drawing the earth-shattering conclusions.

you are clearly in circles here. I did not lable you a fascist. I asked if you if you were one. That is one who is a progressive and believes ultimately that the individual should by tied to the State in every regard.

Again, I am confused.

I agree. I think I have made my position on this matter crystal clear. I have even suggested how we might differ, but you ...

Notice how you attempted to label me 'fascist' when I merely offered a friendly challenge to your statements? Why?

I've not done that, but you cleverly have. Bravo. I'm just attempting to find how and why we differ and suggesting how that is. You are the one drawing the earth-shattering conclusions.

you are clearly in circles here. I did not lable you a fascist. I asked if you if you were one. That is one who is a progressive and believes ultimately that the individual should by tied to the State in every regard.

Again, I am confused.

I agree. I think I have made my position on this matter crystal clear. I have even suggested how we might differ, but you see to stilll suggest I am trying to convince you of somethig.

Are you saying that young adults don't have a right to ask a sexually
related question in Sex-ed class and also have the right to expect an
answer?

No! But they are not young adults. Hell, most 30 year olds are not even adults.

Anyway, enough here, I've done nothing but express my view. You are clearly an intolerant statist. You say I place you in a box? Poor, pitiful you. This is what I mean about a dialogue with Leftists. If you feel trapped in a box, or that I a have placed you in one, then perhaps you are.

Anyway, good clip, interesting and important issue, and one that should be discussed more. I just think it should be discussed wihtout bigotry and intolerance.

And just to restate my thoughts since this has turned into a willhelm bash. Apperanty because I think this:

digitalsistere. I
basically agree with your initial comment on an intellectual level.
Where I do not agree is taking the next step of being the intolerance
you seem to object to.

First, fearbased mentality? That is
your subjective opinion of those taking issue. There are many things I
think you and I would both object to having our children indoctrinated
by. So do not begrudge someone else for their view.

Second,
You have no clue whether the parents objecting were the parents of the
kids asking the specific questions in question. You do not know whether
the parents you claim are ...

And just to restate my thoughts since this has turned into a willhelm bash. Apperanty because I think this:

digitalsistere. I
basically agree with your initial comment on an intellectual level.
Where I do not agree is taking the next step of being the intolerance
you seem to object to.

First, fearbased mentality? That is
your subjective opinion of those taking issue. There are many things I
think you and I would both object to having our children indoctrinated
by. So do not begrudge someone else for their view.

Second,
You have no clue whether the parents objecting were the parents of the
kids asking the specific questions in question. You do not know whether
the parents you claim are irresponsible are the ones of the children
left with these questions.

Third, you do not know the specific nat... read more»
digitalsistere. I basically agree with your initial comment on an
intellectual level. Where I do not agree is taking the next step of
being the intolerance you seem to object to.

First, fearbased
mentality? That is your subjective opinion of those taking issue. There
are many things I think you and I would both object to having our
children indoctrinated by. So do not begrudge someone else for their
view.

Second, You have no clue whether the parents objecting
were the parents of the kids asking the specific questions in question.
You do not know whether the parents you claim are irresponsible are the
ones of the children left with these questions.

Third, you do
not know the specific nature of the entirety of the discussion. Perhaps
there were some things discussed in a classroom setting that were
inappropriate for some. Seeing as how you understand that maturity and
intellect differ among a specific poplulation.

Fourth, views on masturbation are irrelevent to the discussion. This should be about the views of the nature and responsibility of educators. I suggest when educators master the abilitry of teaching children how to read, write, and subtract, then they can move on to the heady stuff.

Fifth, There is no such thing as tolerance, just different targets. The comments here prove that.

Sixth, Do you know what this particular school's or district's policy is on sex education? I don't either. Maybe there were some blatant violations. If that is the case, then perhaps some action against the teacher is warranted.

Seven, Why do you care that the State assume the role of this responsibility when it i...

Fourth, views on masturbation are irrelevent to the discussion. This should be about the views of the nature and responsibility of educators. I suggest when educators master the abilitry of teaching children how to read, write, and subtract, then they can move on to the heady stuff.

Fifth, There is no such thing as tolerance, just different targets. The comments here prove that.

Sixth, Do you know what this particular school's or district's policy is on sex education? I don't either. Maybe there were some blatant violations. If that is the case, then perhaps some action against the teacher is warranted.

Seven, Why do you care that the State assume the role of this responsibility when it is not the State's responsibility. Are you a fascist?

Eight, This clip is not about sex or maturbation when you get right down to it. It is about parents being able to exercise full authority in the rearing and moral clarity of their children.

The only thing I agree with digitalsisters is the comment about parents not talking to their children about these things. I think it's sad that a parent is too shy to talk to their own child about something that could affect them for the rest of their life. It's not like they have to explain it in graphic detail with pictures to aid their imagination! Just explain to them what it is and why it's extremely dangerous to abuse. Parents should wake up and realize that if they don't tell their children, their children's own curiosity will lead them to someone else who will tell them. I personally would have preferred to have learned these things from my parents, with a proper explanation of them,...

The only thing I agree with digitalsisters is the comment about parents not talking to their children about these things. I think it's sad that a parent is too shy to talk to their own child about something that could affect them for the rest of their life. It's not like they have to explain it in graphic detail with pictures to aid their imagination! Just explain to them what it is and why it's extremely dangerous to abuse. Parents should wake up and realize that if they don't tell their children, their children's own curiosity will lead them to someone else who will tell them. I personally would have preferred to have learned these things from my parents, with a proper explanation of them, rather then from immature peers. I do not, however, agree with her on the rest of the subject. First of all it was this teacher's responsibilty to know what she could, and could not, tell her students. I think she knew exactly what she was doing, and she knew it was wrong. It's not like these kids wouldn't have learned it from someone else, or that they didn't already know. It's the fact that she was an authority figure, and she was supposed to be the example. She failed. Secondly, if it was against state law, then these parents have every right to press criminal charges. Breaking the law is breaking the law, period. Thirdly I DETEST the remark made about homeschooling. I personally was homeschooled K-12, and I'm here to tell you that it's the best thing my parents ever did for me. I am well educated, I grew up without all the peer pressure garbage, among other things, that other kids had to deal with in public school. I especially appreciate it considering the fact the the only public school in my small town is ranked as one of the worse schools in my state. I was not "brain washed", which I believe is a rediculous notion in it's own right, and I certainly wasn't locked in a church basement. I think that was a completely ignorant and naive comment to make.
Jon

Will:
I see an issue of rights, you see an issue of sex.
_______________________________________
Digital:
Are you saying that young adults don't have a right to ask a sexually related question in Sex-ed class and also have the right to expect an answer? Even if the answer challenged their parents belief system, this would at least give a young adult a more comprehensive bundle of knowledge by which to form their OWN beliefs.

Unless you're advocating that children should not be offered any knowledge other than what their parents approve of?

Then why have sex-ed in the first place?

It seems that in this case, a right to sex education was challenged. Where do you see the separation...

Will:
I see an issue of rights, you see an issue of sex.
_______________________________________
Digital:
Are you saying that young adults don't have a right to ask a sexually related question in Sex-ed class and also have the right to expect an answer? Even if the answer challenged their parents belief system, this would at least give a young adult a more comprehensive bundle of knowledge by which to form their OWN beliefs.

Unless you're advocating that children should not be offered any knowledge other than what their parents approve of?

Then why have sex-ed in the first place?

It seems that in this case, a right to sex education was challenged. Where do you see the separation of the two?
_________________________________________

I know this debate has already ended but I thought I would comment on this remark made by digital. I find so many things disturbing about this comment I hardly know where to begin. First of all, I would like to point out the fact that this teacher was a seventh and eighth grade teacher. These "young adults" are barely teenagers. Some 13 and 14 year olds can be extremely mature for their age, and others can be extremely immature as well. I've seen some that could be classified as a young adult, and I've seen some that are definitely still children. Secondly I would like to point out that minors DO NOT have a legal right to ask ANYONE any type of question and expect an answer, let alone ask a SEXUAL

question from another adult who is not their parent. ESPECIALLY IF THAT ADULT IS THEIR TEACHER. You made it sound like they were being denied a basic human right or something. I don't think your personal opinions about sex education and over bearing parents have any room in this discussion. Another thing that completely blows my mind away is the fact that you missed the whole point of this article. She very possibly BROKE THE LAW by answering these kids' question, does that mean anything to you?? not to mention the fact that she deviated from the core curriculum, so she knew that what she was doing was wrong.

-Unless you're advocation that children should not be offered any knowledge othe...

question from another adult who is not their parent. ESPECIALLY IF THAT ADULT IS THEIR TEACHER. You made it sound like they were being denied a basic human right or something. I don't think your personal opinions about sex education and over bearing parents have any room in this discussion. Another thing that completely blows my mind away is the fact that you missed the whole point of this article. She very possibly BROKE THE LAW by answering these kids' question, does that mean anything to you?? not to mention the fact that she deviated from the core curriculum, so she knew that what she was doing was wrong.

-Unless you're advocation that children should not be offered any knowledge other than what their parents approve on.

You totally brought this completely out of the context of the debate. We're supposed to be talking about the knowledge that a CHILD is recieving from their TEACHER, not ALL the knowledge that is offered to a child. I would certainly advocate the position that a parent has every right, indeed a very legal right, to control the information that is offered to their children by other adults. ESPECIALLY ADULTS THAT ARE AUTHORITY FIGURES.

-Then why have sex-ed in the first place?

I would agree. Why are modern parents allowing other people, people that could very possibly be complete strangers, teach their children about sex? This used to be something that a father would teach his son on a one to one basis, or something a mother would talk to her daughter about. Now parents are so disconnected from their children's lives they expect other people to do this, truly said in my opinion. But this is just my opinion, everyone has the right to do as they will.

-It seems in this case, a right to sex education was challenged. Where do you see the seperation of the two?

Again, I would wonder where you see the union of the two. I would assume by "case" you're once again referring to the article. Again you miss the entire point of the

article, which is not only was she completely out of line by teaching them something that was outside of the core curriculum, but also IT WAS AGAINST THE LAW. Also, what are you implying when you say this? They weren't denied anything, if she had stuck to the core curriculum there wouldn't have been a problem! It seems that you're implying that the curriculum put together by the schools, state and local laws is somehow inadequate. And something else is really bothering me too, what exactly do you mean by "right? What on earth are you talking about when you say "a right to sex education"? What "right"??? Are you talking about a legal right??? or are you talking about how YOU think children sh...

article, which is not only was she completely out of line by teaching them something that was outside of the core curriculum, but also IT WAS AGAINST THE LAW. Also, what are you implying when you say this? They weren't denied anything, if she had stuck to the core curriculum there wouldn't have been a problem! It seems that you're implying that the curriculum put together by the schools, state and local laws is somehow inadequate. And something else is really bothering me too, what exactly do you mean by "right? What on earth are you talking about when you say "a right to sex education"? What "right"??? Are you talking about a legal right??? or are you talking about how YOU think children should be taught??
_____________________________________

I would also like to make this personal comment. I personally believe that it is sad that people think a child needs to be this concerned with sex. I think children so go back to being children. More and more I see kids, and not just teens and pre teens, but 7 and 8 year olds, talking about blowjobs and homosexuals. Why on earth does a 8 year old know about these things? But it's not just children either, it's adults too. The fact is, sex is over rated. It's not what people make it out to be. People let themselves become enslaved by it, some people even define themselves by it. Stop making sex a bigger issue than it needs to be.

I think it's sad that a parent is too shy to talk to their own child
about something that could affect them for the rest of their life. It's
not like they have to explain it in graphic detail with pictures to aid
their imagination! Just explain to them what it is and why it's
extremely dangerous to abuse. Parents should wake up and realize that
if they don't tell their children, their children's own curiosity will
lead them to someone else who will tell them. I personally would have
preferred to have learned these things from my parents, with a proper
explanation of them

In my opinion this is one of the best statements any of us have made so far. I to wish that I had learned ...

I think it's sad that a parent is too shy to talk to their own child
about something that could affect them for the rest of their life. It's
not like they have to explain it in graphic detail with pictures to aid
their imagination! Just explain to them what it is and why it's
extremely dangerous to abuse. Parents should wake up and realize that
if they don't tell their children, their children's own curiosity will
lead them to someone else who will tell them. I personally would have
preferred to have learned these things from my parents, with a proper
explanation of them

In my opinion this is one of the best statements any of us have made so far. I to wish that I had learned from my parents the vast world of sexuality. But, they were to shy to talk to me about. So I learned on my own.

I personally was homeschooled K-12, and I'm here to tell you that it's the best thing my parents ever did for me.

Another gift I wish I had been given. Unfortunately my parents didn't have the right education to legally offer homeschool. A gift we are giving our children. You are very blessed to have parents that have both the intellect and insight to make such a learning environment available to you.

I think that was a completely ignorant and naive comment to make.

Perhaps. I'm sure many would agree with you and many would disagree with you. Depends on a lot of factors. For me personally, it was a metaphor meant for a very specific context and situation; not a universal judgment. Which I obviously dropped the ball and should have clarified the context. For that, my apologies to everyone.

These "young adults" are barely teenagers. Some 13 and 14 year olds can
be extremely mature for their age, and others can be extremely immature
as well.

Quite true. But this does not change the fact that social and mental maturity plays anything other than a minor role in sexual awareness. Maturity is being able to use wisdom and good judgment in making decisions for yourself, not the level of awareness you have regarding your body chemistry.

For a moment, lets toss opinions aside. It's a common, easy to research fact that sexual awareness (being aware of pleasure in the genital area) begins during the first few years following birth. No, it's not as dominant in the awarene...

These "young adults" are barely teenagers. Some 13 and 14 year olds can
be extremely mature for their age, and others can be extremely immature
as well.

Quite true. But this does not change the fact that social and mental maturity plays anything other than a minor role in sexual awareness. Maturity is being able to use wisdom and good judgment in making decisions for yourself, not the level of awareness you have regarding your body chemistry.

For a moment, lets toss opinions aside. It's a common, easy to research fact that sexual awareness (being aware of pleasure in the genital area) begins during the first few years following birth. No, it's not as dominant in the awareness as it is when a child goes through puberty, but it is there. This is not an opinion.

Unfortunately for most, brain/body chemistry doesn't check in with the maturity levels of an individual and get the OK, before it kicks in. So when you assume that because a young adult doesn't act their age in social contexts, that their body hormones aren't raging - is denial.

Secondly I would like to point out that minors DO NOT have a legal
right to ask ANYONE any type of question and expect an answer, let
alone ask a SEXUAL

Scary. So if a child is lost...he or she has no right to ask for help?
No right to ask directions, because they aren't....what? Eighteen? So
children are to wait until their told it's ok before they can have any
free thought and curiosity about their world and bodies.

She very possibly BROKE THE LAW by answering these kids' question, does
that mean anything to you?? not to mention the fact that she deviated
from the core curriculum, so she knew that what she was doing was wrong.

Which part? That she broke the law or answered their questions?

And life...real life, the kind we all are participating in 'right now' is not curriculum based. Structure, yes. No practical curriculum. So how can one learn to live in a world with no curriculum,

I think you have it right, Digtalsistere, chilren need to be listened to and have their questions answered. If that's against the law, then the law is wrong and should be repealed.
And at the risk of name calling--don't listen to that troglodyte Willie. He just likes to see his own words in print and this is the only place he can call everybody "lefty's" and think he's smarter than the average fool. Our fellow clipper, Ratlifar (I hope it's OK to share R) showed me some very revealing things about our brother Wilhelm here:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/troglodyte.htm
Look in the flame warrior roster under Troglodyte, Ferrous Cranus and Profundus Maximus.
Willie picks more nit...

I think you have it right, Digtalsistere, chilren need to be listened to and have their questions answered. If that's against the law, then the law is wrong and should be repealed.
And at the risk of name calling--don't listen to that troglodyte Willie. He just likes to see his own words in print and this is the only place he can call everybody "lefty's" and think he's smarter than the average fool. Our fellow clipper, Ratlifar (I hope it's OK to share R) showed me some very revealing things about our brother Wilhelm here:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/troglodyte.htm
Look in the flame warrior roster under Troglodyte, Ferrous Cranus and Profundus Maximus.
Willie picks more nits than a monkey on speed in a flea circus every time he comments, confusing the issue more than clarifying anything.

And, for the third time, what are those comments everyone has a problem with?

Willhelm, can you not clearly see that the problem is not with your comments or ideas, but with your treatment of anyone disagreeing with you. If we didn't welcome differences of opinion, why in the hell would we be here? I personally have three businesses to run and national MMA competition to train for...If I didn't have a sincere interest in connecting with new people and discussing real issues I could easily be doing other things. But I make that sacrifice in order to make myself available to learn from new people...with new ideas.

Look back from the very first post on this topic...who was the f...

And, for the third time, what are those comments everyone has a problem with?

Willhelm, can you not clearly see that the problem is not with your comments or ideas, but with your treatment of anyone disagreeing with you. If we didn't welcome differences of opinion, why in the hell would we be here? I personally have three businesses to run and national MMA competition to train for...If I didn't have a sincere interest in connecting with new people and discussing real issues I could easily be doing other things. But I make that sacrifice in order to make myself available to learn from new people...with new ideas.

Look back from the very first post on this topic...who was the first person to resort to name calling? Who was the first person to get defensive? If you can't answer that question honestly or if you respond with another finger pointing attack...save your time. I won't bother reading a single post of yours from now on. I will accept that you are wasting my time and attention when I could be investing those in other people on here that have a true desire to learn and share what they know.

Willhelm, can you not clearly see that the problem is not with your
comments or ideas, but with your treatment of anyone disagreeing with
you.

And please point out that "treatment". Other than my comment to booty, who clearly has some comprehension problems, who is really mistreating who for their disagreement? Remember, everyone up to jmjones agrees with you, as did I. And to my earlier point about the sticking to the issue. Who made the issue Me? I was making the issue clarity and I was perfectly fine to accept our differences on an intellectual level, but then you say our differences are not clear. So, there must be some underlying agenda, or perhaps even bigotry, behind y...

Willhelm, can you not clearly see that the problem is not with your
comments or ideas, but with your treatment of anyone disagreeing with
you.

And please point out that "treatment". Other than my comment to booty, who clearly has some comprehension problems, who is really mistreating who for their disagreement? Remember, everyone up to jmjones agrees with you, as did I. And to my earlier point about the sticking to the issue. Who made the issue Me? I was making the issue clarity and I was perfectly fine to accept our differences on an intellectual level, but then you say our differences are not clear. So, there must be some underlying agenda, or perhaps even bigotry, behind your views since we can not maintain an intellectual disagreement without yours and everyone else's personal attacks. But then again, I am used to it. The Clipmarks agenda of the tyranny of opinion in action. Try removing your over-engaged sensativity. There is nothing more ugly than Leftists feeling intellectually inferior.

Try re-reading the thread.
Remove your personal bias and overly-sensitive reception.
Read objectively.

Now, what is the freakin' problem?

Willie, can you spell "obtuse"?

I'm sorry, what was that?

Who was the first person to get defensive?

Your perception. This entire thread is about everyone, but me, getting defensive. Laugher!

Troglodyte Will-asleep-at-the-helm

Hmmm?

Yup, I recognized Willy immediately.

I know. My good looks are hard to miss.

don't listen to that troglodyte Willie. He just likes to see his own
words in print and this is the only place he can call everybody
"lefty's" and think he's smarter than the average fool.

That must mak me an above average fool. L-O-L!

This mentality may have functioned in another century, but not t...

read more»

Willie, can you spell "obtuse"?

I'm sorry, what was that?

Who was the first person to get defensive?

Your perception. This entire thread is about everyone, but me, getting defensive. Laugher!

Troglodyte Will-asleep-at-the-helm

Hmmm?

Yup, I recognized Willy immediately.

I know. My good looks are hard to miss.

don't listen to that troglodyte Willie. He just likes to see his own
words in print and this is the only place he can call everybody
"lefty's" and think he's smarter than the average fool.

That must mak me an above average fool. L-O-L!

This mentality may have functioned in another century, but not this one

It is interesting this attack did not accompany a response to my comment.

Lets get back on track and just ignore Will. Let that sad sack go and derail another thread.

Examples please? It seems the talk moves along just fine when engaged in by the right clippers who share kleenex.

you might want to change your handle if you want to be taken seriously.

Huh?

You are getting bashed because youre a prick. It's not hard.

Double whammy. Good one!

You are so obvious with what you are willy. I wonder what little insecure remarks you will have next.

Insecurity is such a tragedy. It is "fear-based" ya know.

A person can't be offended if they don't take others seriously.

It is inhumane not to take people seriously in the appropriate context. But we all know that doesn't apply in this context. Right?

Of course you can't fathom reading anything psychological Willy, it's because you talk out of your arse.

I did try it once.

Willy, why are you the only mate on here that has resorted to name
calling? You sound like a child thats had a brother make him look daft
and the best you can do is call your mate a booger.

I'm rollong!

Ah, and the labels continue. Ok, w