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2-26-2008 4:11 AM
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2-26-2008 4:12 AM
abailart
<<<a genuine atheist must interpret such an event as a temporarily inexplicable hallucination, or a sudden psychotic break, or a clever technological trick – in short, as anything but evidence that atheism is false. (An atheist who questions the truth of atheism is ceasing to be a genuine atheist precisely to the extent that he is asking himself a genuine question.)

In other words, evidence must always be interpreted within the context of interpretive assumptions that necessarily determine what that evidence is understood to signify, and which by their nature are themselves matters of faith. Thus the only way someone like Dawkins will ever see any evidence for the existence of God will be i...
2-26-2008 2:31 PM
willhelm
In other words, evidence must always be interpreted within the context
of interpretive assumptions that necessarily determine what that
evidence is understood to signify, and which by their nature are
themselves matters of faith.
Great clip. This obviously applies among a broad range of issues other than faith. I think there is a deep human mechanism at play in not accepting truths outside of our firmly held beliefs, even to the point of denying and ignoring obvious truths.
Obvious?
Are we slaves to our paradigm?
Can freedom be found in constant skepticism?

Then, as skeptics, we are seen as "rigid". Irony!
But I ramble. Good clip.
2-26-2008 2:35 PM
willhelm
The will to believe is stronger than the truth.
2-27-2008 10:25 AM
AcesLucky
As long as Dawkins remains who he is now, he will remain incapable of seeing an angel of the Lord.
It would stand, therefore, to reason that said angel must be a product of Dawkins' mind, as with any angel, if the angel could not be seen unless the seer already believes it to be an angel.


Reality, on the other hand, has been described as follows:

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesnt go away." ~ Philip K. Dick
2-28-2008 3:56 AM
Oortcloud
Thus the only way someone like Dawkins will ever see any evidence for the existence of God will be if he loses his faith that he never will.
This is about as effective an argument as trying to claim that atheism is a religion. It is an attempt to paint an opponent in a weaker light, ironically through the projection of the weakness of faith and religion when it is put to the test against evidence. It is a "proof by assertion" fallacy.

It also smells terribly of the "there are no atheists", "people never disbelieve in god, they are simply angry at god" or "ex-christians were never real christians in the first place" arguments. Very obvious projection of a believers refusal t...
2-28-2008 6:17 AM
tabsey
Dawkins does not pretend to be 100% sure that a spirit world does not exist. He argues that, as yet, he has no evidence of it's existence. He would have to take this position to be a respected scientist.
2-28-2008 6:46 AM
abailart
As a point of mere empirical fact, he would NOT have to take that position to be a respected scientist. Certainly, for example, it would hardly be the position of Isaac Newton Dawkins is a respected scientist by virtue of his scientific work. He deserves no rspect whatsoever for stumbling across what is essentially a psychopatjological problem in his existential make up and universalising it.
2-28-2008 4:05 PM
Oortcloud
As a point of mere empirical fact, he would NOT have to take that position to be a respected scientist.
Fail.

A scientist works with the scientific method to draw conclusions from the facts and evidence. It is those that claim understanding through conjecture and/or faith that reveal how biased their position is and it undermines their ability to make an informed decision. I find it par for the course that believerse would try and twist this as "atheists wouldn't accept real evidence anyway". Dawkins finds no evidence to support the god claim so believers take the position that he is wrong because he wouldn't accept that evidence anyway. Wow, talk about desparetely trying to...
2-28-2008 6:34 PM
Anastasia S
true, but it's true of everyone. no-one ever believes what is only true if the underlying assumptions are true, and there's no reason why anyone should. personally, I believe in God and Angels, but that doesn't mean I'd necessarily recognise a "burning bush" as God, because I believe in a deity who speaks through people, not foliage... anyway, what point is there in debating it - people believe what they believe
2-29-2008 9:53 AM
AcesLucky
"because I believe in a deity who speaks through people, not foliage..."
If there's a true deity communicating, wouldn't his message be somewhat consistent (since it's coming from the same source) and at least be true?

One might wonder why this deity won't speak for itself, (on the one hand), and why when it does speak through one person, he contradicts his message in another person (one the other hand).
But I certainly agree, a creator of all this universe showing up as a talking "bush" is embarrassing. He thought less of Cain for offering plant life over the sacrifice of an animal. And then he shows up as one? Duh.


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