We in Ireland went through this crap of church interference in matters political too. Not now and never ever again. I agree the Church should not interfere nor be involved in political matters but but in a case like this where whatever democracy is left is diminishing fast and heading to communistic state like the Soviet Union or China, I don't care who they are, somebody better speak up. Same as in the Apartheid era in South Africa. It was the church that exerted the greatest pressure for change. I give them credit even though I don't believe in the institutionalised church. They spoke up for the people in general and their congregants(sic) in particular. And so they should. Same as in the Apartheid era in South Africa. It was the church that exerted the greatest pressure for change. I give them credit even though I don't believe in the institutionalised church. They spoke up for the people in general and their congregants(sic) in particular. And so they should.The church lead the way, Christ-like, for once, unlike in Latin America where the Catholic church's record is a disgrace, even racist. I agree the Church should not interfere nor be involved in political matters but but in a case like this where whatever democracy is left is diminishing fast and heading to communistic state like the Soviet Union or China, I don't care who they are, somebody better speak up.Unlike the great 'democracy' America. I don't blame you for believing the propaganda of the West. Just think of the number of lies that have been discovered since 9/11 that has the US in such a bad place. Yet your accept hook line and sinker the Bush line on Venezuela. Check out "Inside the coup" or "The Revolution will not be televised" on U tube and "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" for a different view. @righthand It's not necessarily that I readily accept the propaganda of the West but I'd rather accept it any day than socialist/communist propaganda. Unlike in the West, all dictators in socialist/communist countries have suppressed basic human rights including the right to religion. This is the reason why in a case like this, I don't blame the Church for speaking up. If up to Chavez, there wouldn't be a Church, his most apathetic opponent. Because I realize this fact based on history does not necessarily make me staunch follower of Bush's policies. in Latin America where the Catholic church's record is a disgrace, even racist.How so? all dictators in socialist/communist countries have suppressed basic human rights including the right to religion.Do you see Chavez as a dictator? How many did he execute after the failed US led coup attempt in 2002? Clearly you don't know that the Latin American dictators were fascist directed by the US and they murdered 1,000 of their own people. Or that the US maintained a murder school for young army officers of each of the military juntas that the US maintained and directed in Latin America. Clearly you don't know of the religious, including bishops, American nuns and church leaders, that were murder by these junta. Clearly there's very little that you know about ho... You must think I'm in favor of direct US involvement in Latin American countries for some reason. I am not blind to the fact the US has had an agenda for the past 150 years (maybe more) throughout Latin America including its neighbor, my maternal country Mexico. The direct influence of the US in Mexican government lead to the suppression of the Church to endorse Protestantism. This lead up to the Cristero revolution right after Mexico's Independence. All this is besides the point, what I am trying to say is that because I totally agree with the stance of the Venenzuelan bishops does not necessarily automatically make me a proponent of US policy. The US has their own reasons to stifle the Cha... in Latin America where the Catholic church's record is a disgrace, even racist.I will repost my question once more: How so? righthandYou ignored. If you at the very least agree with the separation of religion and the state then you would agree with me at least with this pointI don't understand. Agree with you on what? I'm lost. All the fascist Latin dictatorships were racist with the aim of the old European elite keeping power with the excuse of the artificial danger of communism as the excuse. The Catholic church backed the fascist completely making them as racist and as guilty as the dictators. That same setup is being played out today in Venezuela against Chavez and the nat... Mar 11 2007 (more recent) When Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez recently took his oath of office for a second term, he swore it in the name of Jesús Christ, who he called “the greatest socialist of history.” It’s hardly an accident that Chavez would hark on Christianity in addressing his people. For years, Venezuela has been a religious battleground, with Chavez pursuing a combative relationship with the Catholic Church. In Venezuela, Catholics have a potent political voice and make up about 70% of the country’s population. Ever since taking office in 1999, Chavez has repeatedly clashed with the clergy. The President frequently chastised Venezuelan bi... Do you or do you agree with the seperation of state and religion? Chavez is a dictator by desiring complete control of both in his country and supports governments with like minded socialistic views. Give me one example on how the Church backed facist dictators in Latin America. I can assure you the issue at hand is not about racism against the native people. The issue of liberation theology claims racism and suppresion of the native people as their reason for revolution but the theory behind it is not what Christ taught. Clearly liberation theology is a front used by revolutionists who will act out their socialist agenda in the name of religion which is approved by Chavez and other like minded politicians and dissenting clergy. Do you or do you agree with the seperation of state and religion?How can you ask such a question after what I've written. I see no point in continuing if I cannot get through to you even on the most basic level of understanding. If you decide to clarify your inability to understand me then I'll continue. Otherwise I see no point. Good luck. Why don't you clarify for me. I truly don't understand where your coming from. You post on my clip accusing me of accepting Bush's policy against Chavez. You portray Chavez as being the victim when he truly is a dictator who clearly wants full control of his country in all matters political, social and religious, not to mention a financial supporter of FARC the revolutionist faction of a country that is not his own. Then you accuse the Catholic Church of racism and fascism and provide no proof of evidence for your conclusion. So forgive me for asking a clarification on where you actually are coming from, since I don't see a point either, if you are just making false accusations left and right. Do you or do you agree with the seperation of state and religion?This is not even a proper english question. Assure me that I'm debating with someone who has reasonable knowledge of english and then I'll decide if debate is worth while. my postYour response was? I'm white, male, former Catholic... How do you reason that the Catholic Church was involved with fascism? Why don't you provide any evidence to such a pretension? What leads you to believe fascism is at work by the Church against the indigenous people and Chavez in Venezuela at the present time? I am Latin American, male, revert and practicing Catholic, and believe as well as you do that the misuse of religion in the name of God has led to plenty evil by men. I also believe that societies built on on godless ideologies fester even worse evil by men who hold fast to them. How about a democratic country that practices democracy at all levels being branded a totalitarian state? This is happening right now with Venezuela. The country is more democratic today than at any time in its history and is a vanguard for future democratic movements in the world. But, the US does not like Venezuela’s president, Hugo Chavez. In this instance, the U.S. outright lies and accuses one of the world’s leading democrats of threatening democracy. A document, "Strategy for National Security, 2006," stated "In Venezuela, a demagogue inundated with petrol money is undermining democracy and trying to destabilize the region." This preposterous statement is official US doctrine a... If you call attacks on the freedom of expression democratic, then your views of democracy is correct: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/05/22/venezu15986.htm The country is more democratic today than at any time in its historyPersecution of political rivals is probably your understanding of democracy but I would have to disagree with you: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/08/venezu11299.htm Now back to my initial unanswered question, how was and is the Catholic Church involved in fascism and racism in Latin America? I don't think my knowledge of english can be so atrocious that I am unworthy to have my questi... Persecution of political rivals is probably your understanding of democracy but I would have to disagree with you: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/08/venezu11299.htmIs that you best shot? Does this source give you any insight or right to misunderstand my understanding of democracy? Pretty awful effort, I say. I'll quote from your 'great' source just to highlight how inferior your case is. Venezuela: Court Orders Trial of Civil Society Leaders In ordering the trial of four civil society leaders on dubious charges of treason, a Venezuelan court has assented to government persecution of politi... It seems to me that you are overly concerned about being right rather than finding truth. By eliminating the political competition by imprisonment and even death, then the Venezuelan people will have no real choice on who to vote for since the opposition is hindered. If this is Chavez' method of democracy then that makes him a tyrant. A democratic-tyrant which is obviously an oxymoron. Now, will you please answer my previous question? If I receive no response then I assume you have no evidence and will automatically conclude your previous statements concerning the Catholic Church as a fascist/racist entity as fallacy. from righthandand I'm still not assured. And your best shot? Sunk out of sight. See you again, maybe. I see once again my question remains unanswered. 27 March 2008 LATIN AMERICA: ‘Christians Should Take Poverty and Justice Seriously’ Brazilian theologian Leonardo Boff arrived in El Salvador on Easter Sunday, the eve of the 28th anniversary of the assassination of Monsignor Oscar Romero by a sniper on Mar. 24, 1980, while he was celebrating mass. Boff participated in events held to commemorate the murder of Romero, known to Roman Catholics in El Salvador as "the voice of the voiceless." A former Franciscan priest born in 1938, Boff said his visit to San Salvador was "a debt I owed to Monsignor Romero," who was archbi... Liberation theology has been with us since the 1960s, in too many incarnations to count, always offering a version of the same message. The liberation theologians see the Gospel of Christ crucified and resurrected, the message of deliverance from the reign of sin and death through repentance and faith, as too "pie in the sky." In contrast, liberation theology offers economic and political salvation in the here-and-now, sometimes through pulpit rhetoric and sometimes at the point of a gun. Liberation theology is seeker sensitive. The first waves of this movement, in Latin America, were designed to make Christianity appealing to the people by addressing their felt needs, the desire for armed ... Major Roberto d’Aubuisson, the founder of the rightwing Nationalist Republican Alliance (ARENA) friend of yours?That is quite an accusation. The only possible reason that I could think of on why you would shove me in the same boat with d'Aubisson is probably because of his extreme right wing politics as opposed to Chavez' extreme left wing tendencies. First let us examine the person, d'Aubisson and his politics. Leader of ARENA and the death squads who was also known as "blowtorch Bob" because of his use of the blowtorch to oppress political opponents. Sound familiar? One of his antagonist was Catholic Archbishop Oscar Romero who was outspoken to the atrocities being... This does not mean that the Church is not interested in the poor, on the contrary the Church is concerned with, "the ever increasing wealth of the rich at the expense of the ever increasing poverty of the poor" and regarding private property, "must lead to a more just and equitable distribution of goods, ... and if the common good demands it, there is no need to hesitate at expropriation itself, done in the right way." Pope John Paul II. So how specifically is the Church racist and fascist? You have only brought upon more false accusations and yet failed to answer my question. D'Aubbison was in no way affiliated with the Church much less even part of the Church's "elite fascists masters." Are you up to the challenge to prove your previous accusations against the Church as being a racist and fascist entity or are you filled with hatred against the Church that it clouds ability to reason? I want facts, nothing but the facts. said the spider to the fly. Have him murdered and then acknowledge his fight for human rights but not while alive. Old trick. Óscar Arnulfo Romero y Galdámez (August 15, 1917 – March 24, 1980), commonly known as Monseñor Romero, was a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church in El Salvador. He became the fourth Archbishop of San Salvador, succeeding the Luis Chávez y González. As archbishop, he witnessed ongoing violations of human rights and started a group which spoke out on behalf of the poor and victims of the country's civil war. Chosen as archbishop for his conservatism, once in office he embraced a nonviolent form of[url=... Liberation theology is a school of theology within Christianity, particularly in the Roman Catholic Church. Liberation theology focuses on Jesus Christ as not only the Redeemer but also the Liberator of the oppressed. It emphasizes the Christian mission to bring justice to the poor and oppressed, particularly through political activism. Some elements of certain liberation theologies have been rejected by the Catholic Church. At its inception, liberation theology was predominantly found in the Catholic Church after the Second Vatican Council. It is often cited as a form of Christian socialism, and it has enjoyed... Do you see Chavez as a dictator? How many did he execute after the failed US led coup attempt in 2002? Clearly you don't know that the Latin American dictators were fascist directed by the US and they murdered 1,000s of their own people. Or that the US maintained a murder school for young army officers of each of the military juntas that the US maintained and directed in Latin America. Clearly you don't know of the religious, including bishops, American nuns and church leaders, that were murder by these junta. Which fact didn't you get? Which junta were you a part of? from righthand Liberation theology can be viewed in two ways. There are some liberation theologians who say Christ is the first and foremost liberator. The liberation from the slavery of sin is priority which then logically follows that man will pursue freedom from other types of slavery in culture, economic, social and political forms. Defects in the above mentioned are rooted and caused by sin itself, therefore becomes an indispensable condition that sin be addressed to achieve true liberation. Then there are some liberation theologians who prioritize changes in culture, economic, social and political aspects through any means necessary and do not regard other aspects of Christ's teachings. By relativi... Do you see Chavez as a dictator? How many did he execute after the Which fact didn't you get? Which junta were you a part of? All the fascist Latin dictatorships were racist with the aim of the old Do you see Chavez as a dictator? How many did he execute after the failed US led coup attempt in 2002? Clearly you don't know that the Latin American dictators were fascist directed by the US and they murdered 1,000s of their own people. Or that the US maintained a murder school for young army officers of each of the military juntas that the US maintained and directed in Latin America. Clearly you don't know of the religious, including bishops, American nuns and church leaders, that were murder by these junta. Which fact didn't you get? All the fascist Latin dictatorships were racist with the aim of the old European elite keeping power with the excuse of the artificial danger of communism a... Clearly you don't know that the Latin American dictators were fascist directed by the US and they murdered 1,000s of their own people.Are you insinuating that the actions of the fascist dictators and the involvement of the US is due to the Catholic Church? All the fascist Latin dictatorships were racist with the aim of the old European elite keeping power with the excuse of the artificial danger of communism as the excuse.Latin dictators were both rightist and leftists. Even if it is true that the European elite supported some of these dictators, are you suggesting that the Church are among the "elite"? The Catholic church backed the fascist completel... Latin dictators were both rightist and leftists.Joke, right? Or else you don't know your left from your right. And you certainly show a lack of knowledge as to who killed their own citizen? Lack of discouragement and playing along with the false communist tag meant the church of the elite also had blood on its hands. Nice to see the pope apologise for the sins of the church in America! You would agree with him. Joke, right? Or else you don't know your left from your right.Just two examples, even though you persist in making this discussion into a political one, partly I think because you lack any evidence whatsoever to back up your claim as the Church endorsing fascism and racism. To the right we have an example with Augusto Pinochet and to the left, obviously Fidel Castro. Lack of discouragement and playing along with the false communist tag meant the church of the elite also had blood on its hands.Here is a summation of what the Church actually teaches as far as any type of government is concerned. From: Summi Pontificatus encyclical of Pope Pius XII: 52. But ... You may ask what the stance of the Church took during the height of "liberation theology". In a rough summary: http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-9063697_ITM Just two examples, even though you persist in making this discussion into a political one, partly I think because you lack any evidence whatsoever to back up your claim as the Church endorsing fascism and racism. To the right we have an example with Augusto Pinochet and to the left, obviously Fidel Castro.Why just two examples? Just those many fascist murdering regimes that the church endorsed by not speaking out and condemning. Particularly when they had the inside information to just how bad these regimes really were. If you don't think the church had a duty to speak out and condemn then you may claim to be catholic but you are no Christian! And of course I "persist in ... If you don't think the church had a duty to speak out and condemn then you may claim to be catholic but you are no Christian! And of course I "persist in making this discussion into a political one". What else do you hope it is? Religious? With all that blood on your hands? No chance with all those indigenous deaths that you are responsible for directly or indirectly with cooperation from the WASPs. Give up the 'disappeared' bodies first!That is a fallacious ad hominem argument. Because you refuse to see the evidence of the Church condemning any type of dictatorship in Latin America or anywhere else for that matter, does not deem it as non existent. On more than one occasions... Right, start with your Chilean friends. Then explain your "against the left and right dictatorships". You list the left ones and I'll list the rightist fascist murderous dictatorships. While you insist in making this argument into a left and right issue, this is nothing more than a Red Herring type of deviation from the fallacious statement you presented about the Church being involved in racism and fascism. Catechism of the Catholic Church: 2424 A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order. A system that "subordinates the basic rights of individuals and of groups to the collective organization of production" is contrary to human dignity.Every practice that reduc... Because you refuse to see the evidence of the Church condemning any type of dictatorship in Latin America or anywhere else for that matter, does not deem it as non existent. On more than one occasions the Church has spoken out against the left and right dictatorships which leaves your argument of the Church being involved in racism and fascism ambiguous.Only a fanatic could produce logic like this and expect the precipitant to accept it. As the word of god maybe? So some silent condemnation is Ok for your fascist friends while Cuba takes the full weight of your bile! Your fascist friends of the Nazis and imperialists could murder their own citizens for joining a trade unio... Your fascist friends of the Nazis and imperialists could murder their own citizens for joining a trade union while Cuba that cherished all its citizens equally got your non-silent condemnation! By the way, no more platitudes about what the church preaches. Just what it practices, please. Flattery will get you no where. Obviously your hatred can not be reasoned with in discussion. You provide no evidence what so ever to your defamation and choose to remain ignorant on the actual facts. In what way is the Church Nazis? Read this before commenting: http://www.newsweek.com/id/89597/page/1 and http://www.catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp Assure me I am the one who is n... @righthandNone so blind. Where is your list? @EASerious accusation. I never lie and if I insulted you then you'd know it. You seem a little delicate for big boys games. Used to getting your own way no matter what bilge you spout? Produce the goods. Earn your spurs. Let's have the list. Let's hear you vocal condemnation now for the fascist dictatorships that you supported with your silence. It may save your soul! Enjoy! This is my list: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm Any political entity that refuses to acknowledge God's sovereign rule above their own, left or right are far from my persuasion. Like I have reiterated to you on multiple occasions, these dissolute societies (to say the least) left or right are the very ones the Church condemns. Including your beloved Chavez. Any evidence to my point, is only seen as "platitudes" by you and are programmed automatically to regard it as false without even thinking of weighing the actual evidence. Like a deviant Church hater, you loathe speaking maladies for no rational reason what so ever. You can insult me all you'd like, I'm rather thick skinned, ... Any political entity that refuses to acknowledge God's sovereign rule above their own, left or right are far from my persuasionNow we have it. You're working to a different (fictional) master from the rest of us, which explains your lack of logic or sense. If your 'evidence' is based upon some heavenly body, how can I take you seriously. Seriously! This explains your desire to presume insult. The martyr complex is it? How can I argue with some one not singing off the same hymn sheet? Why on earth would you think that Catholics need a thicker skin? More of the martyr complex? The Catholic church excommunicated the Irish that fought the Brits for the freedom of Ireland in... You're working to a different (fictional) master from the rest of us, which explains your lack of logic or sense. If your 'evidence' is based upon some heavenly body, how can I take you seriously.Simply. All you have to do is weigh the evidence of an atheistic society compared with a God fearing society. In the last century, we have had atheistic governments in various countries such as Lenin, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler, Tse-tung, Pol Pot, etc., who were the cause of over 200 million deaths during their reign. Theistic societies are far from perfect but no where near the cause of death of God-less societies. The Catholic church excommunicated the Irish that fought th... I seriously doubt that.Which? The past or the future? You are accepting "the fascist dictatorships that massacred the indigenous peoples" so it must be the future that you doubt. See, I'm not relying on some mythical heavenly body to gauge the future just the common sense of human history. The Catholic church excommunicated the Irish that fought the Brits for the freedom of Ireland in the early 1900's.Just to start... 'Church and 1916 'blood sacrifice' Monday, April 11, 2005 I don't know what history book Brian Eggins was quoting from in his well-intentioned but flawed request for Catholic Church leaders to "rescind the blood sacrifice of the 1916 Rebellion" (March 25th). The Catholic Church cannot rescind it, because it never supported it in the first place. Despite the popular conception of republicanism as a Catholic dominated ideology, nothing could be further from the truth.... > Is there any information with details about the lifting of Pope Pius IX 's excommunication of the Fenians? I am interested to know what Pope lifted the excommunication, what year, and even the text of the document if possible. Thank you and take care. >Ben Emerson I believe the excommunication still stands. It was imposed January of 1870 and never rescinded that I know of. It was ignored by many clerics at the time, many in a "don´t ask don´t tell format" where the priest simply didn´t ask if the person was a Fenian during Penance or Holy Eucharist. In 1880s the Fenian Brotherhood basically ceased to exist and it is a moot point nowadays. I have not heard of any application directl... |
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