Prayer works very well for certain individuals and not at all for others.

This makes no sense whatsoever. What individuals are you speaking about?

Same for Atheism, Satanism, foot worship or anything else you can come up with.

You've completely lost me on the relationship of the above.

We need to stop telling others about the futility of their beliefs and
concentrate on looking inside ourselves where the truth really lies!

So if a practice proves to be of no help people should still adhere to it. Why? For momentary comfort? That's the common reason given for prayer. At what expense? I happen to believe that the expense in intergrity and honesty ...

Prayer works very well for certain individuals and not at all for others.

This makes no sense whatsoever. What individuals are you speaking about?

Same for Atheism, Satanism, foot worship or anything else you can come up with.

You've completely lost me on the relationship of the above.

We need to stop telling others about the futility of their beliefs and
concentrate on looking inside ourselves where the truth really lies!

So if a practice proves to be of no help people should still adhere to it. Why? For momentary comfort? That's the common reason given for prayer. At what expense? I happen to believe that the expense in intergrity and honesty is too high. I'd rather search for solutions to problems than depend on magic. That's my choice.

Altlib, What do you do with your guilt?

If I feel guilty for a wrong I've committed against someone I try to rectify the wrong. Would you suggest I use prayer instead? I don't understand that.

To davboz
It's interesting that you know me so well. And are you suggesting that not praying has anything to do with what you term as humanity's "spirituality" being shallower, whatever that means. Are you suggesting that if we pray to a deity that all the poverty, war and cruelty in the world would vanish? And by what standard do you judge spiritual emptiness? You claim to never having acquired the discipline of prayer but then say that no matter how much you pray for me...

Come back when you get your thoughts together and we'll talk.

And cpltaiji, thanks for you "defense" but you're comment that I "just don't see that yet" is offensive. As though given time I'll come around and drop to m...

To davboz
It's interesting that you know me so well. And are you suggesting that not praying has anything to do with what you term as humanity's "spirituality" being shallower, whatever that means. Are you suggesting that if we pray to a deity that all the poverty, war and cruelty in the world would vanish? And by what standard do you judge spiritual emptiness? You claim to never having acquired the discipline of prayer but then say that no matter how much you pray for me...

Come back when you get your thoughts together and we'll talk.

And cpltaiji, thanks for you "defense" but you're comment that I "just don't see that yet" is offensive. As though given time I'll come around and drop to my knees and fall in line. Perhaps you didn't intend to come off in that manner but that's how I read what you wrote. Believe me, my world view is not a caprice that I've just developed after reading a book or two. I'm retired with three grown kids that are doing fine, thank you. So you're comment is slightly condescending.

I am supposing, Willhelm, that you are suggesting prayer as a method of relief from guilt for... sins and other actions. "You sinned by action x. Pray for 20 minutes a day for the next week to relieve your guilt," or whatever along those lines.

It is important to remember that guilt is, in some large measure a choice, unless one is totally pathological and simply cannot feel guilt or be self-aware enough to understand self-control. No one can really make you feel guilty, unless you already do inside. Self-accountability for actions, along with a desire and determined effort to live life in a manner which honors the value of my fellow man precludes the need and burden of making a choice to f...

I am supposing, Willhelm, that you are suggesting prayer as a method of relief from guilt for... sins and other actions. "You sinned by action x. Pray for 20 minutes a day for the next week to relieve your guilt," or whatever along those lines.

It is important to remember that guilt is, in some large measure a choice, unless one is totally pathological and simply cannot feel guilt or be self-aware enough to understand self-control. No one can really make you feel guilty, unless you already do inside. Self-accountability for actions, along with a desire and determined effort to live life in a manner which honors the value of my fellow man precludes the need and burden of making a choice to feel guilty in many instances. Guilt, in general, is not such a common feature when one acts in a manner consistent with the logic, not the somewhat religiously usurped notion of, The Golden Rule. That's all one really needs.

In my observation, many religious individuals accept a sense of guilt over actions which, other than being told by some church leader or precept of proper action that they should feel guilt over that action they may have taken, really are not worthy of guilt. In fact there really is nothing to be gained by the acceptance of the guilt other than the sense of indebtedness to the deity and/or subjugation to the order which determined that action to be worthy of guilt.

That is not to say that a non-believer doesn't feel guilt, but it erupts when there is a genuine reason which brings it. While I do suffer guilt over some actions in my life, I also must remember that I am but a man, an imperfect man as every other, and always shall be until I am not a man. We all make mistakes. Rather than bury myself in self-torture over the act which brought the guilt, I strive to use it as a tool to learn and grow from so as not to repeat it, not as a millstone of my unworthiness.

I realize this may not ring true for you, of course, but that's how it works for me.

Why do people keep begging for divine magic when it plainly doesn't work?

Please tell me, can you prove that statement?

Yes

Hello BB. Quite a nice comment. One point struck me:

That is not to say that a non-believer doesn't feel guilt, but it erupts when there is a genuine reason which brings it.

Christianity in particular, through the concept of original sin, attempts to inculcate guilt from the get-go. Only their guilt is based on questionable morality obtained through myth. Much like old-time snake oil salesmen who first define ill health broad enough to emcompass a large majority of the target audiance and then of course offering a cure for their newly d...

Why do people keep begging for divine magic when it plainly doesn't work?

Please tell me, can you prove that statement?

Yes

Hello BB. Quite a nice comment. One point struck me:

That is not to say that a non-believer doesn't feel guilt, but it erupts when there is a genuine reason which brings it.

Christianity in particular, through the concept of original sin, attempts to inculcate guilt from the get-go. Only their guilt is based on questionable morality obtained through myth. Much like old-time snake oil salesmen who first define ill health broad enough to emcompass a large majority of the target audiance and then of course offering a cure for their newly discovered malady. When I first met the fable of the cause of original sin when I was a boy I knew instinctively that this was a sham.