and then turns around flippantly and says they would vote Republican

You are making a false assumption. There is nothing flippant about it.
The Democrats have been going down hill since Reagan was elected.
When I woke up the morning of the Kerry election, I heard on the radio Edwards saying that they were going to fight for every vote. He was assuring on that point and sounded completely sincere. It was within an hour of my hearing that, that Kerry conceded. Right then I pretty much gave up on the Democrats because they lack the guts to fight. It felt like such a betrayal. I was seriously depressed for at least 2 months.
It's not just about winning or looking good, it's about ...

and then turns around flippantly and says they would vote Republican

You are making a false assumption. There is nothing flippant about it.
The Democrats have been going down hill since Reagan was elected.
When I woke up the morning of the Kerry election, I heard on the radio Edwards saying that they were going to fight for every vote. He was assuring on that point and sounded completely sincere. It was within an hour of my hearing that, that Kerry conceded. Right then I pretty much gave up on the Democrats because they lack the guts to fight. It felt like such a betrayal. I was seriously depressed for at least 2 months.
It's not just about winning or looking good, it's about standing up for what you believe in.
Then after that there was the humiliation of the Republicans on talk forums laughing at Democrats and lecturing them on "get over it". Not a democrat that I heard, really had the moxie to fight back.
Being worried about sounding politically correct has destroyed the Democrat's backbone in my opinion.
But it is also not flippant because I have long been skeptical of Obama. His backers, and I'm not just referring to the ones I have talked to, but ones I have read comments of on Buzzflash and elsewhere who have really inspired a passion against him.

So now when there is a candidate who opposes the war in Iraq, has oppossed the war in Iraq, unlike hillary who wrote a blank check to W.. Demonstrating that he is brave enough to go against the political wisdom of the time unlike Hillary, you would vote against this person and vote for the republicans.
Your stances lack credibility.

Tell me exactly how he stopped the war since he got into the Senate, or even how he really tried, How many times did he absolutely refuse to vote on a war funding bill until a true withdrawal date was set? How many war dollars has he voted to spend anyway?
He has campaigned vigorously to remove the permanent bases in Iraq has he?

Did Obama really ...

So now when there is a candidate who opposes the war in Iraq, has oppossed the war in Iraq, unlike hillary who wrote a blank check to W.. Demonstrating that he is brave enough to go against the political wisdom of the time unlike Hillary, you would vote against this person and vote for the republicans.
Your stances lack credibility.

Tell me exactly how he stopped the war since he got into the Senate, or even how he really tried, How many times did he absolutely refuse to vote on a war funding bill until a true withdrawal date was set? How many war dollars has he voted to spend anyway?
He has campaigned vigorously to remove the permanent bases in Iraq has he?

Did Obama really go against the political wisdom of the time or did he do that when it didn't count in real political life and basically became just one of play it safe types when it counted in the Senate?

Were you dying to vote for Kucinich who actually did take real action? When it counted in an actual power positon?

However your understanding of the times is very poor. Obama's position when he denounced going into Iraq was not a safe position. Far from it. I recall being attacked vehemently from all sides when in 2002 I was pointing out that the lying conservative rethuglicans were pandering to fear to instigate a needless war they had been desiring since about 1996.

I understand what the times were like. I remember what it was like to be truly afraid of making the mistake of saying what I really thought around the wrong people. I remember completely turning off the TV the moment the bombing began. And not turning it on for a single minute until the disgusting display of sick (to my mind...

However your understanding of the times is very poor. Obama's position when he denounced going into Iraq was not a safe position. Far from it. I recall being attacked vehemently from all sides when in 2002 I was pointing out that the lying conservative rethuglicans were pandering to fear to instigate a needless war they had been desiring since about 1996.

I understand what the times were like. I remember what it was like to be truly afraid of making the mistake of saying what I really thought around the wrong people. I remember completely turning off the TV the moment the bombing began. And not turning it on for a single minute until the disgusting display of sick (to my mind) voyeurism was over. I did the same thing at the first gulf war.

I remember walking to the store one morning and someone had written no war on the sidewalk in front of the recruiting office. It was a true blessing to see that small little sign that confirmed I really wasn't alone,

And I remember walking to my class at midday and there were these pro war people on the corner with signs maybe 200 of them, a very significant number for my town.

And I was helpless. I had to respond. So I raised my arm with thumb held down and I walked the length of the crowd, inside the crowd not in front of it. Got the usual why don't you leave the country if etc. And when I got to school, I felt good and I felt that I had done a very stupid thing.

So I understand very well. At the same time, I don't deserve special credit for doing what I believed nor does Obama. And it takes a substantial track record not a couple of speeches at two antiwar rallies of people who are mostly on your side anyway. To give Obama undue credit for that is to belittle thousands of people who speak up and are not risking a possible political career, but their very safety and lives.

No point in talking reality on that issue unless we are on the same page with respect to exactly what Obama did once he was a Senator and exactly what he did not do.
What did he actually do?
Why did he do what he did do and why did he not do other things that he could have?
Too, you tend to respond to any explanations I make with boiler plate formula answers that basically go having you say, 'silly', 'illogical' and lately the wise saying, "you are a fraud". It's a short conversation too, because you don't explain how it's silly or how it's illogical, one is just supposed to take your word I guess.
A person that acts that way does not earn the right to expect answers.
Oh, and I guess pokket...

No point in talking reality on that issue unless we are on the same page with respect to exactly what Obama did once he was a Senator and exactly what he did not do.
What did he actually do?
Why did he do what he did do and why did he not do other things that he could have?
Too, you tend to respond to any explanations I make with boiler plate formula answers that basically go having you say, 'silly', 'illogical' and lately the wise saying, "you are a fraud". It's a short conversation too, because you don't explain how it's silly or how it's illogical, one is just supposed to take your word I guess.
A person that acts that way does not earn the right to expect answers.
Oh, and I guess pokkets plays similar game with a joke about 'tales' ha ha, very funny very profound. I mean it's a funny bit of humor in some places, being where it was placed makes it look like a cheap shot.
I certainly don't mind people talking cheap shots as long as people know that's what they are.

Good news on my TV, Obama is coming apart! Praise the Lord!

Can't believe you lost your sense of humor with Pokkets so easily after having lectured me earlier on the importance of keeping on the lighter side. Perhaps you are coming apart?

I didn't lose my sense of humor but I can do so at times.
Having a sense of humor doesn't mean you don't try to confront issues. That is, it's not all humor , all the time and it's not some glibe way to deny unpleasant realities as if they don't exist.

@ pokkets,
If I did misinterpret your meaning or intent I really am sorry.
I know that I can misinterpret the things people say because it happened elsewhere yesterday where thanks to my asking questions I found out what was really intended. I'm sur...

Can't believe you lost your sense of humor with Pokkets so easily after having lectured me earlier on the importance of keeping on the lighter side. Perhaps you are coming apart?

I didn't lose my sense of humor but I can do so at times.
Having a sense of humor doesn't mean you don't try to confront issues. That is, it's not all humor , all the time and it's not some glibe way to deny unpleasant realities as if they don't exist.

@ pokkets,
If I did misinterpret your meaning or intent I really am sorry.
I know that I can misinterpret the things people say because it happened elsewhere yesterday where thanks to my asking questions I found out what was really intended. I'm sure it happens more times than I realize because it is really easy for people to miscommunicate I believe.
I do like to find out what the real story is where that is possible.

You explain the question below that you have wormed out of and I will be more than happy to regale you with the answer.

Thanks. I thought that quote was a very nice piece of using pokkets joke as a tool for my own narrative!
Well knowing that you will only make fun of my answer and that I am wasting my breath, I will go ahead.
First she did not vote to give a blank check. That was not her purpose or intension.
Bush made assurances that he would use war as only a last resort. He broke those assurances and of course he always intended war no matter what. Still there were times when despite all the lies and propaganda, I thought he would not be able to pull it off. Colin Powell i...

You explain the question below that you have wormed out of and I will be more than happy to regale you with the answer.

Thanks. I thought that quote was a very nice piece of using pokkets joke as a tool for my own narrative!
Well knowing that you will only make fun of my answer and that I am wasting my breath, I will go ahead.
First she did not vote to give a blank check. That was not her purpose or intension.
Bush made assurances that he would use war as only a last resort. He broke those assurances and of course he always intended war no matter what. Still there were times when despite all the lies and propaganda, I thought he would not be able to pull it off. Colin Powell is the most guilty enabler of the war of all the people outside the Bush team.
Second I do believe she voted for the resolution for political expediency only. I do not believe this reflects on her ability to be President.
The fact is that for her to vote against the resolution would have had zero effect on what happened. She never had any role or power to stop the war and voting against it would only give more ammunition to her future enemies. Now an enemy within her own party wants to do the same thing to her that the Republicans would, only for the opposite reason. So no matter how she votes she loses something only here the something is betrayal by her own party via Obama.
Thirdly, Obama is a hypocrite to make an issue of the vote because he would have voted the same way if he was in that position!

Yance, although I am an Obama supporter, should Hillary become the nominee I would happily vote for her. I am so proud this year to have two such excellent candidates available for us to choose from.

That being said, I am very disappointed in the manner in which Hillary is attacking Barack. For example: Had she said that "I have years of experience that makes me fit to be president, and Senator Obama only has a speech from 2004" I would say that is fair for political rhetoric. But when she included McCain along with her as having good experience and being fit to lead the country, but Obama only has a speech, she crossed a very dangerous line. It is as if she is saying, if you do not vote fo...

Yance, although I am an Obama supporter, should Hillary become the nominee I would happily vote for her. I am so proud this year to have two such excellent candidates available for us to choose from.

That being said, I am very disappointed in the manner in which Hillary is attacking Barack. For example: Had she said that "I have years of experience that makes me fit to be president, and Senator Obama only has a speech from 2004" I would say that is fair for political rhetoric. But when she included McCain along with her as having good experience and being fit to lead the country, but Obama only has a speech, she crossed a very dangerous line. It is as if she is saying, if you do not vote for her, then you should vote for McCain because Obama is not experienced enough to lead. Should Obama become the nominee, which is by no means a sure thing. she is practically writing McCain's speeches for him. This is just not right.

But when she included McCain along with her as having good experience and being fit to lead the country, but Obama only has a speech, she crossed a very dangerous line. It is as if she is saying, if you do not vote fo...

Are you opposed to her saying the truth?
I
t's Obama's fault for running when he has no experience, not hers for noticing it.

And it's a specious argument because everything not complementary they say about each other is a potential Republican ad.
It's also a specious argument because the Republicans are very capable of noticing the facts on their own. And if she did not acknowledge the truth now, and she got the nomination, the Republicans could question her...

But when she included McCain along with her as having good experience and being fit to lead the country, but Obama only has a speech, she crossed a very dangerous line. It is as if she is saying, if you do not vote fo...

Are you opposed to her saying the truth?
I
t's Obama's fault for running when he has no experience, not hers for noticing it.

And it's a specious argument because everything not complementary they say about each other is a potential Republican ad.
It's also a specious argument because the Republicans are very capable of noticing the facts on their own. And if she did not acknowledge the truth now, and she got the nomination, the Republicans could question her judgment for not speaking the truth during the primary.

How then would she answer? Could she say, I place my loyalty to the party above the security of my country?

It is also a specious argument because the Obama people are doing the exact same thing to her, trying to belittle the value her experience as a First lady and belittle her trips abroad and so forth.

Apparently you have never worked on a political campaign from the inside. I have absolutely nothing against Mrs. Clinton comparing herself to Mr. Obama. It is NOT her job to support the opposing party. It is up to Democrats to decide who THEIR candidate should be. Only in a GENERAL election, which will come in the fall, to the two parties have at each other.

This has nothing to do with Mrs. Clinton telling the truth. This is her voicing an opinion at best. There are many people who believe Mr. Obama is perfectly capable of being an excellent president. I happen to also believe that Hillary would make a good president and as I said, I would vote for her happily should she be the nominee. But...

Apparently you have never worked on a political campaign from the inside. I have absolutely nothing against Mrs. Clinton comparing herself to Mr. Obama. It is NOT her job to support the opposing party. It is up to Democrats to decide who THEIR candidate should be. Only in a GENERAL election, which will come in the fall, to the two parties have at each other.

This has nothing to do with Mrs. Clinton telling the truth. This is her voicing an opinion at best. There are many people who believe Mr. Obama is perfectly capable of being an excellent president. I happen to also believe that Hillary would make a good president and as I said, I would vote for her happily should she be the nominee. But only in the GENERAL election do the voters of both parties decide which party's candidates best represents the country. This is not the national primary, it is the DEMOCRATIC primary.

Well the near future is boringly predictable. It is extremely predictable that Hillary will not catch Barack in delegates by the time the convention rolls around.

And regarding where we left off on this clip commentary, yes, I am laughing at your response.

Fact that you stated: Bush made assurances that he would use war as only a last resort. He broke those assurances and of course he always intended war no matter what.

Even you recognized that Hillary's famous claim "If I knew then what I know know" is pure crap.

Then you stated: The fact is that for her to vote against the resolution would have had zero effect on what happened. She never had any role or power to st...

read more»

Well the near future is boringly predictable. It is extremely predictable that Hillary will not catch Barack in delegates by the time the convention rolls around.

And regarding where we left off on this clip commentary, yes, I am laughing at your response.

Fact that you stated: Bush made assurances that he would use war as only a last resort. He broke those assurances and of course he always intended war no matter what.

Even you recognized that Hillary's famous claim "If I knew then what I know know" is pure crap.

Then you stated: The fact is that for her to vote against the resolution would have had zero effect on what happened. She never had any role or power to stop the war and voting against it would only give more ammunition to her future enemies.

Now you have recognized that her vote was a couched vote to protect her political ambition instead of doing what was right for the country.

My heart soars that individuals like Martin Luther King never said "I am powerless to change a nation that has a history of racial prejudice so ingrained that it is insurmountable".

If you've ever studied ethics many peoples downfall, according to the felons themselves, is that they never would have committed the act if just one person had the courage to questione the act.

Unlike Hillary 21 other Senators, some of them with Presidential aspirations, such as Russ Feingold, refused to cave into the lies of George Bush and the neocons.

How can anyone legitimately say that Hillary Clinton is qualified to represent our nation in International negotiations and times of crisis when she was outsmarted and outmaneuvered by George W. Bush?

If you've ever studied ethics many peoples downfall, according to the felons themselves, is that they never would have committed the act if just one person had the courage to questione the act.

You are kidding right? Nixon would have lived a whole other life if only one person had questioned what? The guy never heard of ethics I take it? The local bank robber, would not have done it if only one person, because he never heard that robbing banks was wrong.

Now you have recognized that her vote was a couched vote to protect her political ambition instead of doing what was right for the country.

I'm saying that Obama did the same thing.
I'm saying that voting a...

If you've ever studied ethics many peoples downfall, according to the felons themselves, is that they never would have committed the act if just one person had the courage to questione the act.

You are kidding right? Nixon would have lived a whole other life if only one person had questioned what? The guy never heard of ethics I take it? The local bank robber, would not have done it if only one person, because he never heard that robbing banks was wrong.

Now you have recognized that her vote was a couched vote to protect her political ambition instead of doing what was right for the country.

I'm saying that Obama did the same thing.
I'm saying that voting as she did was of no possible harm to her country because no matter how she voted the result would have been the same, and I am saying I am saying that she knew that.

I am saying that your claim that she was outsmarted and outmaneuvered by George W. Bush, is pure stage drama and pure unfairness. She is a Senator, he is the President and she hasn't a damn bit of power compared to him so being outmaneuvered is a foregone conclusion and outsmarted is just words you want to say as malice toward her because you have no way of knowing what was in her mind. but you do know you want to say as many negative things about her as you can!

Do you ever stop putting words into others mouths? She would have been joining the others who were brave and not manipulative.

She does not exhibit the courage or the judgment to pick up anybody's phone at 3 am.

There were a bunch of people who had "magical powers". Those included the more known, in the public eye, leaders of the Democratic party (and regardless of Hillary's lack of legislative experience she does have name recognition, which accounts for about 1/4 of her popular vote so far).

Those individuals include a list of people like Biden, Dodd, Hillary, and Edwards, who voted their political ambition instead of what was best for this country.

Good lord, I at least have some resp...

Do you ever stop putting words into others mouths? She would have been joining the others who were brave and not manipulative.

She does not exhibit the courage or the judgment to pick up anybody's phone at 3 am.

There were a bunch of people who had "magical powers". Those included the more known, in the public eye, leaders of the Democratic party (and regardless of Hillary's lack of legislative experience she does have name recognition, which accounts for about 1/4 of her popular vote so far).

Those individuals include a list of people like Biden, Dodd, Hillary, and Edwards, who voted their political ambition instead of what was best for this country.

Good lord, I at least have some respect for Edwards for having admitted he was wrong unlike Hillary who shows a stubborn nature just like George Bush of "I can do no wrong". That's the last thing we need in the Oval office after George Bush.

And this is why you have seen Hillary's lead crumble and recognition from the public that we need other leaders.