That is messed up. More like the Old Americas and pretty accurate. For those who think the war took land unfairly: The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, signed on February 2, 1848 by American diplomat Nicholas Trist, ended the war and gave the U.S undisputed control of Texas, established the U.S.-Mexican border of the Rio Grande River, and ceded to the United States California, Nevada, Utah, and parts of Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and Wyoming. In return, Mexico received US $15,000,000. This exchange is known as the Mexican Cession. In 1853, in what became known as The Gadsden Purchase, the United States paid an additional $10 million to Mexico to purchase land in what is now southern Arizona and southern New Mexico for the construction of a southern route... Oh...I see...interesting... Hey Adolph...you still want that second story apartment overlooking the Eiffel Tower? A few million deutchmarks would do fine. Hey Joe...don't worry about the Baltic States, Seoul or Eastern Europe...your rubbles are good here Comrade! Hey Ghandi what are you complaining about? I am sure the East India Company paid good money for your land, I mean you can't go wrong with a few million pounds, now can you! Saddam, are you still interested in having that seaside Villa on the beach in the Gulf? No problem! My friend here the Emir says that a few million dinars and where all good. Hey Margaret, my friends running the Junta say that they'll get a good loan and bu... Exactly. The government of Mexico had no choice whatsoever. They were forced, by invasion, to sell. Rather like the regularly scheduled Iranian commercial airliner that the US shot down in 1988. Iran was paid for it, and for the people who died. And the USA admitted no responsibility and gave no apology. Story was that the US Navy thought this Airbus A-300 was attacking an F-14 Tomcat fighter. Funny how the dark side of US history is so foreign to us. That is messed up, Brazilenut72 ! Masbury: "Funny how the dark side of US history is so foreign to us." As a historian, I would love to hear the history about which you speak. As a historian, I would love to hear the history about which you speak.Are you saying that the dark side of US history doesn't exist or is very minor? The 'Mexican Cession' was plain and simple robbery! The United states Government robbed that land at gunpoint. No ifs, ands, or buts about it! And Mexico robbed it from Spain. And Spain robbed it from the Indians. BTW, we weren't the ones who crossed the border and attacked first, they did. Mexico started off intending to take our land and we ended up with theirs. They where deliberately provoked by the Americans, expecting that the Mexicans would do so. Oh and stealing from a thief, last time I checked, that was still stealing. They weren't provoked. Texas won it's independence from Mexico. They later joined the United States. Mexico then entered Texas and killed Americans. They invaded us and lost. I don't hear anyone complaining about the land we stole from the Germans during WWII. And Mexico robbed it from Spain. And Spain robbed it from the Indians. BTW, we weren't the ones who crossed the border and attacked first, they did. Mexico started off intending to take our land and we ended up with theirs.Exactly. Oh boy.... While Mexico had not followed through with its threat to declare war if the United States annexed Texas, relations between the two nations remained tense due to Mexico’s refusal to recognize the border of Texas. According to the Texans, their state included significant portions of what is today New Mexico and Colorado, and the western and southern portions of Texas itself, which they claimed extended to the Rio Grande River. The Mexicans, however, argued that the border only extended to the Nueces River, several miles to the north of the Rio Grande.
As for Texas itself, I found this tidbit to be very interesting (From the Wiki): Seeking to better control the border region of Texas, which had few settlers, the Mexican government permitted a few hundred U.S. families to settle the area. This, however, led to settlement of Texas on a scale unanticipated by the Mexican government, as its inability to control the border allowed thousands more Americans to settle than had been agreed upon. English-speaking settlers quickly formed a majority in Texas.So I guess what goes around comes around? On April 24, 1846, a 2,000-strong Mexican cavalry detachment attacked a 63-man U.S. patrol that had been sent into the contested territory north of the Rio Grande and south of the Nueces River. The Mexican cavalry succeeded in routing the patrol, killing 11 U.S. soldiers in what later became known as the Thornton Affair after the slain U.S. officer who was in command. A few survivors returned to Fort Brown. You point would have some validity if the U.S. merely fought to restore Texan territorial integrity, but the reason those forces where there and the war was fought was to take the entire southwest, which was the result Polk wanted in the first place, he who has a dutiful follower of Jackson. The war may have indeed provided that opportunity, but would the war itself have been possible if the Mexican military hadn't attacked first? No matter what you think about the war, you can't get around the fact that Mexico attacked first and then signed the treaty when they lost. I just hope that the America haters get laid off and replaced by illegal aliens. Fair is fair - right? If being an America lover means one must lie for America, then I have no choice but to be an America hater! Much better to lie for Mexico against America... They where forced to sign, that does not make it right. Who fired first is just a cause belli, an excuse for what Polk already had in mind. He put those forces in disputed territory, he was spoiling for a fight. Reminds me of the Romans, they never "started" wars, they always had a "reason". I'm sure that if the Mexicans did not start the war, the Americans would. And for once I am with yanceducat (we sometimes do agree, who would have thunk it!). Living a lie is not love. I mean if thats the case that means that Lincoln was both a liar and a hater. http://www.animatedatlas.com/mexwar/lincoln2.html And it is not to lie for one or the other, but to express the truth, which should serve all. Lies serve none. Come to think of it, the resemblance to the current state of affairs is unnerving to say the least, including one Senator from Illinois who stood against an unjust war then and stands against an unjust war now. And one Senator was accused of being a radical then and now another is being assaulted by a whisper campaign saying much the same thing. Damn! History does repeat itself in strange and gruesome ways! And a short list of Liars and Haters: General Ulysses S. Grant identified the U.S. Aggression War Against Mexico as “one of the most unjust [wars] ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. . . . The occupation, separation, and annexation [of Texas] were, from the inception of the movement to its final consummation, a [slave-power] conspiracy to acquire territory out of which slave States might be formed for the American Union [U.S.A.]. Even if the annexation itself could be justified, the manner in which the subsequent war was forced on Mexico cannot. . . . The Southern Rebellion was largely the outgrowth of the Mexican war. Nations like individuals are punished for their tra... Now all of this is but naked claim; and what I have already said about claims is strictly applicable to this. If I should claim your land, by word of mouth, that certainly would not make it mine; and if I were to claim it by a deed which I had made myself, and with which, you had had nothing to do, the claim would be quite the same, in substance—or rather, in utter nothingness.President Lincoln (R) So, being forced to sign a treaty when you lose isn't right? It should be the loser, and not the winner who gets to dictate borders? I guess we were wrong to force Japan and Germany to sign treaties. The only reason that land was disputed is because Mexico didn't honor a treaty that they signed after they LOST to Texas. They had no right to dictate anything when it comes to where the border of Texas should be. Union General Philip H. Sheridan saw the South's mentality and morals, "over the killing of many freedmen in the settlements, nothing is done." Asked what he thought of Texas, he said scathingly commenting on their low morals and genocidal mentality, "If I owned hell and Texas, I would rent Texas out and live in hell." See Phil Sheridan and His Army (Lincoln: Univ of Nebraska Press, 1985; and Norman: Univ of Oklahoma Press, 1999), by Univ. of New Mexico History Prof. Paul Andrew Hutton.Gen. Sheridan Its wrong when you are not restoring the peace and instead your sole purpose was a war of aggression to steal said land in the first place. Conquest does not confer rights, if that where the case I could go into your home, shoot you in the leg and force you to sign the deed of your house and land to me. We fought, I won, its mine. And again, Polk designs went far beyond settling a disputed border between Texas and Mexico, it was the whole sale acquisition (by force when money did not get him what he wanted) of Mexican territory from the Texas border to the Pacific. By your logic, the U.S. should not have intervened in the war between Iraq and Kuwait. There was a disputed border, the Iraqis ... On the so called Santa Ana Treaty, Lincoln said the following: I next consider the President's statement that Santa Anna in his treaty with Texas, recognised the Rio Grande, as the western boundary of Texas. Besides the position, so often taken that Santa Anna, while a prisoner of war--a captive--could not bind Mexico by a treaty, which I deem conclusive--besides this, I wish to say something in relation to this treaty, so called by the President, with Santa Anna. If any man would like to be amused by a sight of that little thing, which the President calls by that big name, he can have it, by turning to Niles' Register volume 50, page 336. [See Santa Anna Treaty.] And if any one shou... It does not call itself a treaty. Santa Anna does not therein, assume to bind Mexico; he assumes only to act as the President-Commander-in-chief of the Mexican Army and Navy; stipulates that the then present hostilities should cease, and that he would not himself take up arms, nor influence the Mexican people to take up arms, against Texas during the existence of the war of independence [. ] He did not recognise the independence of Texas; he did not assume to put an end to the war; but clearly indicated his expectation of it's continuance; he did not say one word about boundary, and, most probably, never thought of it. It is stipulated therein that the Mexican forces should evacuate t... Plus: But next the President tells us, the Congress of the United States understood the state of Texas they admitted into the union, to extend beyond the Nueces. Well, I suppose they did. I certainly so understood it. But how far beyond? That Congress did not understand it to extend clear to the Rio Grande, is quite certain by the fact of their joint resolutions, for admission, expressly leaving all questions of boundary to future adjustment. And it may be added, that Texas herself, is proved to have had the same understanding of it, that our Congress had, by the fact of the exact conformity of her new constitution, to those resolutions. What made war inevitable? It's actually pretty simple...Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna. In the early 1830's he renounced the federalist reforms of the government and abrogated the constitution, suspended state legislatures (replacing them with appointed elites - "hombres de bien"), limited state militias, and assumed dictatorial power with his Siete Leyes (Seven Laws). Rebellions broke out against him in four states, which he mercilessly crushed, with the city of Zacateca receiving the brunt of the slaughter and pillaging. Stephen F. Austin, renowned for always favoring diplomacy, returned to Texas looking wasted and sickly after a 2 year prison sentence. Knowing what had tr... Don't confuse one war with another. The Texas Revolution (as Lincoln clearly proofs in his speech) did not lead to Polks designs on the West. The two wars were linked. Mexico maneuvered to get Texas back throughout the decade after the revolution. Santa Anna wasn't alone in nonrecognition of Texas independence. After being toppled by an internal coup, he was exiled to Cuba, but the struggle continued in his absence. Sam Houston was a proponent for annexation simply for security, which was impossible as long as Texas was affected by Mexico's retribution and coups and counter-coups. Texas was subject to constant incursions and was admittedly struggling as a lone Republic in numerous aspects. Now, with a new federalist president in Mexico, Jose Herrera, the annexation process began. Mexico responded by cutting off all diplo... Surely the core of the issue, though, is Manifest Destiny. While European powers commandeered India, SE Asia, and Africa, the USA was busily seizing land from the Mississippi to the Pacific. Wars are still ignited through many of the same methods: put soldiers in the presence of other soldiers, wait till something happens, "have the right to defend ourselves." From Havana to Manila to the Gulf of Tonkin, to Guatemala and Haiti and Mexico and Panama, to Iraq and very possibly [url=http://masbury.wordpress... If being an America lover means one must lie for America...I'm in agreement with Yance here. Truth is our only hope. Much better to lie for Mexico against America...No, N2, I see no good coming from lying for either. It isn't always easy to work out just what the truth is, but unless we work hard to see our historical weaknesses as clearly as we see the things that make us proud, we'll never become all we could be. ratilfar is correct!!! Let's let them have what they lost and then they'll leave New York, Chicago, Denver, etc. ratilfar should look at the leadership - or lack thereof - in Mexico. ratilfar is probably teaching our kids history somewhere - which is a hell of a lot more scary than this debate. ratilfar should contact his/her congressperson who can then sponsor a Constitutional amendment to "fix" things. ratilfar is probably teaching our kids history somewhere - which is a hell of a lot more scary than this debate.Only for those who fear facts and reality. And no I don't teach history, I study it. ratilfar should contact his/her congressperson who can then sponsor a Constitutional amendment to "fix" things.Wish I could (actually I don't), another unjust American war made me a "citizen" of the U.S. but not good enough to be a full citizen. Sure, Polk was an unapologetic expansionist, but he wasn't a warmonger. His diplomatic avenues weren't even received. Congress declared war on May 13, 1846. But that mattered little...Mexico had already declared war on April 23rd (the day before the Ft.Brown skirmish).Ha! To be an expansionist is to be a warmonger. He wanted the land. And Mexico rejected the offer because they where not about to sell their land to anyone. Again, the situation in Texas was used as an excuse to take the whole south west. If it only about Texas, American forces would have pushed back the Mexicans to the Rio Grande and "secure" the borders, instead they went all the way to Mexico City. For th... Oh and on the treaty of Guadalupe, the key point of granting American citizenship to Mexicans living within the United States was ignored by Congress and the courts. Thus Mexican land owners found themselves stripped and impoverished by constant court battles and aggressive political action by white settlers. Oh and that earlier declaration of war by Mexico did not have the force of law, because like in the United States only the Mexican Congress could declare war, which they did in July 7. |
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