I'm sure the Jews in the Nazi test labs would have disagreed with you had they still been alive.

To even suggest that the Nazi experiments are a part of today's methods of medical research is just plain asinine. If you can't make the distinction between the acts of sadistic war criminals and research done with restrictions based on the Hippocratic oath then there really is no further point in discussing this with you. It becomes obvious that any rational discussion is blocked by an empty savage hatred that cares not for fact.

It doesn't matter how much we condemn the acts of the Nazi's, they were done. Thousands of people suffered terribly. Despite the arguments that the Na...

I'm sure the Jews in the Nazi test labs would have disagreed with you had they still been alive.

To even suggest that the Nazi experiments are a part of today's methods of medical research is just plain asinine. If you can't make the distinction between the acts of sadistic war criminals and research done with restrictions based on the Hippocratic oath then there really is no further point in discussing this with you. It becomes obvious that any rational discussion is blocked by an empty savage hatred that cares not for fact.

It doesn't matter how much we condemn the acts of the Nazi's, they were done. Thousands of people suffered terribly. Despite the arguments that the Nazi experiments were unscientific, the data does exist. Although the data is morally tainted and soaked with the blood of its victims, one cannot escape confronting the dreaded possibility that perhaps the doctors at Dachau actually learned something that today could help save lives or "benefit" society.

Should the information that could be used today to save people be ignored? Should the pain and suffering of those that died by the hand of the Nazis be for absolutely nothing? Their lives taken with nothing in return?

If you think not, then you would be wrong because the Jewish people themselves disagree with you.

Oortcloud said:

Saying that humanity has historically suffered at the hands of medical advancement is simply false.

It was an off-the-cuff response, highlighting the error of that particular statement, but since you wish to engage me.

Before I begin I would like to point out that Israel is just as bad. and that the views of a single wealthy Zionist (allegedly) litigator writing well outside any of his specialist fields (Baruch C. Cohen, I have come across him before.) do not constitute a cohesive mutual feeling from the Jewish people on the subject. Do remember to check your sources before citing them in future.

Now please don...

Oortcloud said:

Saying that humanity has historically suffered at the hands of medical advancement is simply false.

It was an off-the-cuff response, highlighting the error of that particular statement, but since you wish to engage me.

Before I begin I would like to point out that Israel is just as bad. and that the views of a single wealthy Zionist (allegedly) litigator writing well outside any of his specialist fields (Baruch C. Cohen, I have come across him before.) do not constitute a cohesive mutual feeling from the Jewish people on the subject. Do remember to check your sources before citing them in future.

Now please don't take this as a personal attack, but I must correct you, to even suggest that there is a stringent system protecting the public is misguided and delusional, but entirely understandable given your obvious lack of historical knowledge on the subject, the very idea of the inhumane exploitation of humans for medical research is thought of as so abhorrent, so evil, that it could only have existed within Nazi Germany, but what many people do not realise is that the United States had little to no regulation up until the 1970s.

Don't believe for a moment that the scientific community and government agencies would not carry out immoral experiments on humans, there are countless horrific occurrences of unethical, inhumane and tortuous medical experimentation throughout recent history, and it was all done under the banner of scientific and medical research.

Another lesser known but equally important point people tend to forget, is that at the end of the Second World War there was a huge influx of Nazi scientists and researchers, conservatively estimated at about 1,600 of them, as well as their dependants were recruited and relocated to the United States, by and under Project Paperclip and its many successor projects throughout the early 1970's.

The Nuremberg Code, while not law itself is often given the Force of Law (big difference), was created in a reactionary capacity to the horrors of Mengele's work, provided regulations for human experimentation to protect the experimental subject from even remote possibilities of injury, disability, or death. Above all else, the Code stressed that it is necessary to obtain voluntary, informed consent from the patient.

But despite the existence of this code and subsequent medical ethics codes, Mengele's legacy lives on. This time, the culprit is none other than the United States government through its involvement in numerous questionable and immoral human research programs.

Th...

The Nuremberg Code, while not law itself is often given the Force of Law (big difference), was created in a reactionary capacity to the horrors of Mengele's work, provided regulations for human experimentation to protect the experimental subject from even remote possibilities of injury, disability, or death. Above all else, the Code stressed that it is necessary to obtain voluntary, informed consent from the patient.

But despite the existence of this code and subsequent medical ethics codes, Mengele's legacy lives on. This time, the culprit is none other than the United States government through its involvement in numerous questionable and immoral human research programs.

The entire field of of Psychology is a farcical ongoing experiment, and pumps people full of toxic chemicals for "chemical imbalances" based upon a consensus of opinions, yet you will never see or hear of them putting a patient forward for Any kind of test to check this.

Fluoride is still widely used, it was known to the Nazi's as a useful tool, nothing has changed except the public perception of it, and contrary to what people have been lead to believe it actually damages teeth, eroding the tooth enamel and causes dental fluorosis a hideously deforming disease. Other effects of Fluoride include, suppression of emotions,reduced IQ and sterilization.

Aspartame was at first refused by the FDA as unsafe, then was snuck in the back door by greedy politicians, and now it kills and maims indiscriminately and unregulated leaving a trail of Brain cancer and MS in its wake, it is now used in many thousands of products.

Prisons have always been a favourite testing ground in America. From 1963 to 1973 Dr Heller, an award winning medical scientist, ran a multitude of experiments on inmates at the Oregon State Prison in order to assess the effect of radiation on sperm production. Another test involving radiation and reproduction was conducted in Washington sate.

Prisoners in Pennsylvania were used to test the effects of radiation on human skin. Inmates in Illinois drank water laced with radium. Prisoners in Utah had their blood drained, irradiated and then re-injected. And the tests were not confined to radiation. Just one example: starting in 1944, hundreds of prisoners at Illinois Statesville Prison were given malaria in a project designed to develop a prevention or cure for the disease that was disabling Allied forces in the Pacific.

Here is an extract from the government’s own report:

“It is difficult to overemphasize just how common the practice [of experimenting on prisoners] became in the United States during the post-war years. ...

Prisoners in Pennsylvania were used to test the effects of radiation on human skin. Inmates in Illinois drank water laced with radium. Prisoners in Utah had their blood drained, irradiated and then re-injected. And the tests were not confined to radiation. Just one example: starting in 1944, hundreds of prisoners at Illinois Statesville Prison were given malaria in a project designed to develop a prevention or cure for the disease that was disabling Allied forces in the Pacific.

Here is an extract from the government’s own report:

“It is difficult to overemphasize just how common the practice [of experimenting on prisoners] became in the United States during the post-war years. Researchers used prisoners as subjects in a multitude of experiments that ranged in purpose from
a desire to understand the cause of cancer to a need to test the effects of a new cosmetic. After the Food and Drug Administration’s restructuring of drug-testing regulations in 1962 prisoners became almost the exclusive subjects in non-federally funded Phase -1 pharmaceutical trials designed to test the toxicity of new drugs. By 1972, FDA officials estimated that more than 90% of all investigational drugs were first tested on prisoners.”

In at least one case, Upjohn and Parke-Davis built and maintained a large Phase-1 testing facility on the grounds of the State Prison of Southern Michigan.
Prison testing has pretty much been abandoned since the late 1970s, but not, as you might expect, for humanitarian reasons but because the tests were coming under too much scrutiny. And it was becoming far easier to employ two alternate sources of human experimental material: students and the poor.

There is a long history of the poor being subjected to government-run experiments. One of the most infamous of these was the Tuskegee Study of the early 1930s, in which 412 African-American sharecroppers suffering from syphilis were identified by the US Public Health Service but were not informed of their condition. For forty years – even after penicillin was discovered to treat syphilis – US PHS doctors observed the effects of the disease taking its course, from blindness and paralysis to dementia and death.

Not that recieving treatment was any safer. Woe betide anyone who checked into a research hospital in the middle of the century. At various institutions across the United Sates, Cana...

There is a long history of the poor being subjected to government-run experiments. One of the most infamous of these was the Tuskegee Study of the early 1930s, in which 412 African-American sharecroppers suffering from syphilis were identified by the US Public Health Service but were not informed of their condition. For forty years – even after penicillin was discovered to treat syphilis – US PHS doctors observed the effects of the disease taking its course, from blindness and paralysis to dementia and death.

Not that recieving treatment was any safer. Woe betide anyone who checked into a research hospital in the middle of the century. At various institutions across the United Sates, Canada and the United Kingdom, patients were injected with plutonium without their knowledge, given radioactive ‘cocktails’ or subjected to full body radiation. In one particularly appalling test, radioactive sodium was injected directly into the placentas of 270 pregnant women at
Hammersmith Hospital in England. The adverse results of these experiments varied from amputation to birth defects to death.

Early in 1963 the Atomic Energy Commission held a conference in Fort Collins, Colorado, for scientists studying the effects of radiation on reproduction. It was the height of the cold war and there were questions that needed to be answered. Questions like the one asked by scientists at an AEC meeting in Washington in 1955:

“How many bombs can we detonate without producing a race of monsters?”

And questions like the one posed in 1949 by an Air Force colonel who enquired how safe nuclear-powered planes would be for his airmen’s ‘family jewels’. NASA wanted to know about the effects of
solar radiation on astronauts. And the CIA wanted to know about everything (no suprises there then).

Dr Carl G. Heller recalled what happened:

“A given group at Fort Collins was working on mice and another group was working on bulls, and than they extrapolated the data from bulls and mice to man. I commented one day to Dr. [Paul] Henshaw, who was then… with the AEC, that if they were so
interested in [what would happen to] man, why were they fussing around with mice and beagle dogs and canaries and so on? If they wanted to know about man, why not work on man?”

In October 1995, the US government’s Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments published its final report. The committee had been assembled by President Clinton after relentless investigative journalist A...

Dr Carl G. Heller recalled what happened:

“A given group at Fort Collins was working on mice and another group was working on bulls, and than they extrapolated the data from bulls and mice to man. I commented one day to Dr. [Paul] Henshaw, who was then… with the AEC, that if they were so
interested in [what would happen to] man, why were they fussing around with mice and beagle dogs and canaries and so on? If they wanted to know about man, why not work on man?”

In October 1995, the US government’s Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments published its final report. The committee had been assembled by President Clinton after relentless investigative journalist Albuquerque Tribune reporter Eileen Welsome uncovered evidence of government-sponsored radiation tests on civilians. Whilst ground-breaking and laudable, the committee’s mandate was
limited to government-funded tests between 1944 and 1974. Another problem was that it relied on self-reporting from various government agencies. The CIA, for example, claim they did only one tiny, innocuous test whereas the Department of Energy admits to 435 studies involving 16,000 subjects. Regardless, the range of admitted tests was astounding.

Given that much of this radiation testing was specifically intended to benefit the military, the average soldier did not fare much better than his civilian counter part. Between 1946 and 1963 over
200,00 GI's were ordered to watch nuclear bomb tests either in the Pacific or in Nevada. One blast alone in the Marshall Islands was over 1000 times the size of the Hiroshima bomb.

The testing of Unproven and very often unnecessary vaccines is also common place within the military (Gulf War Syndrome anyone?), often with side effects worse than what they were supposed to protect against.

Even in death, humans are not immune from government testing. Project Sunshine, which began in 1955, was an international body-snatching program that clandestinely exhumed and dismembered body parts from over 9000 corpses at 17 (known) sites around the world and dispatched them to American laboratories for fallout resting. It was described by one sensitive American scientist as

“a delicate problem of public relations, obviously”

Prisoners, the military, the poor, pregnant women, the dead… Who had the government scientists left out (apart from white, middle-class males, of course)? ah yes, children…

Unsuprisingly, scientists didn’t run tests on their own children; they ran ...

Even in death, humans are not immune from government testing. Project Sunshine, which began in 1955, was an international body-snatching program that clandestinely exhumed and dismembered body parts from over 9000 corpses at 17 (known) sites around the world and dispatched them to American laboratories for fallout resting. It was described by one sensitive American scientist as

“a delicate problem of public relations, obviously”

Prisoners, the military, the poor, pregnant women, the dead… Who had the government scientists left out (apart from white, middle-class males, of course)? ah yes, children…

Unsuprisingly, scientists didn’t run tests on their own children; they ran them on children in institutions and reform schools.

During the 1950s and 60s, Willowbrook State School in New York, an institution for the severely mentally retarded, was the site of hepatitis testing. Each newly arrived child was systematically infected. The rationale was that these places offered regulated environments that were perfect for replicating lab conditions.

Oddly, even though private boarding schools also offered regulated environments, no one ever ran experiments there. The government’s human radiation committee looked at 21 cases of experimentation on children involving over 800 subjects, a number they themselves admit is a minute proportion of what went on. One of the cases they concentrated on was dietary research conducted by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the staff of Walter E. Fernald School. A residential institute for boys.
Former residents, some of whom ended up there simply because their families didn’t want them any more, describe the school as being dirty and brutal. In 1946, researchers set up a ‘science club’ at the school, enticing boys to join with such perks as a quart of milk a day and the occasional chance to leave the building.

In return, the boys were to eat a special ‘rich’ diet (breakfast food ‘enriched’ with radioactive iron) and to submit to regular blood tests. Letters to the boys’ parents implied that the testing would improve their health. The research, along with a later experiment at the school involving calcium, was funded by the National Institute of Health, the Atomic energy Commission and the Quaker Oaks Company.

The government report ends its section on ‘non-therapeutic’ tests on children with:

“Today, fifty years after the Fernald experiments, there are still no federal regulations protecting institutionalized children from unfair treatment in research involving human subjects.”

...

In return, the boys were to eat a special ‘rich’ diet (breakfast food ‘enriched’ with radioactive iron) and to submit to regular blood tests. Letters to the boys’ parents implied that the testing would improve their health. The research, along with a later experiment at the school involving calcium, was funded by the National Institute of Health, the Atomic energy Commission and the Quaker Oaks Company.

The government report ends its section on ‘non-therapeutic’ tests on children with:

“Today, fifty years after the Fernald experiments, there are still no federal regulations protecting institutionalized children from unfair treatment in research involving human subjects.”

One ex-Fernald boy, Charlie Dyer, who has fathered two daughters with severe birth defects, said recently:

“Get to the truth fast before the government hides everything and you can’t find nothing out. Because that’s what the government does, putting it in boxes and crates and hiding everything from the public.”

More recently, the federal Environmental Protection Agency's forays into human experimentation came to light, after the Washington Post

reported that the EPA had approved a two-year study in which families who use pesticides in Duval County, Fla., would be paid to continue using them and to monitor their children's exposure. Each family would be paid $970 in order that scientists might discover how children's bodies absorb hazardous chemicals.

Although scientists may not know the full effects of these poisonous chemicals, they do know that children are at greater risk than adults. Yet rather than advising parents to keep children away from pesticides, the government is paying them to poison their children.

The Hippocratic oath, while held dear by individual doctors and physicians, is just that, an oath it is by no means binding like the Nuremburg code (which is still ignored to a large degree in the pursuit of profit), means nothing to Government and corporations, and anyone working for them is simply "following orders" and no doubt looking out for themselves first, no job, no food.
After pissing off a large multi-national do you really think they would ever work in the medical proffession again given the revolving door nature of the FDA, Big Pharma and the gov?

The very system of check and balances is itself corrupt to the core, The FDA takes cash to rush drugs through in 6 or less weeks, ...

The Hippocratic oath, while held dear by individual doctors and physicians, is just that, an oath it is by no means binding like the Nuremburg code (which is still ignored to a large degree in the pursuit of profit), means nothing to Government and corporations, and anyone working for them is simply "following orders" and no doubt looking out for themselves first, no job, no food.
After pissing off a large multi-national do you really think they would ever work in the medical proffession again given the revolving door nature of the FDA, Big Pharma and the gov?

The very system of check and balances is itself corrupt to the core, The FDA takes cash to rush drugs through in 6 or less weeks, that should take a year or more of dedicated testing. But at a million dollars a go its very profitable for them to fast track them, Big Pharma will do anything to get their products approved in the shortest possible amount of time and the government has its back turned with its hand out, the entire system is designed to keep people sick to maximise profit, after all, there is no money in curing people.

History shows little else But harm done in the name of progress, sorry to burst your happy little bubble but you need to take a second look at the world around you, there is a lot more going on than just what is portrayed.

Bringing it back on subject, this new threat is actually something quite different though, the vaccines are deliberately injurious, with effect ranging from brain damage to paralysis, to death, and a whole host of other nasty effects. There is no experimentation going on, the effects are well known.

Let me put this very simply for you.

You do not put mercury and formaldehyde into something that is intended to benefit someone, not to mention genetically manipulated live viruses.

If you have the money you can bypass much if not all of the required safety checks (they would have failed anyway).

There are literally tens of thousands of unsafe products on the market today and the public ...

Bringing it back on subject, this new threat is actually something quite different though, the vaccines are deliberately injurious, with effect ranging from brain damage to paralysis, to death, and a whole host of other nasty effects. There is no experimentation going on, the effects are well known.

Let me put this very simply for you.

You do not put mercury and formaldehyde into something that is intended to benefit someone, not to mention genetically manipulated live viruses.

If you have the money you can bypass much if not all of the required safety checks (they would have failed anyway).

There are literally tens of thousands of unsafe products on the market today and the public are the guinea pigs, Big Pharma, the WHO, the FDA, and others have no idea what the long term effects will be and nor do they care.

It is the science of Eugenics at work here not that of the medical profession, and in that respect there is no difference between this and Mengle's "work".

The various alternate sciences such as acupuncture, homeopathy,
praying, psychic healing, etc have all gone through vigorous testing
and proven to have no more effect than random chance. At best they
provide placebo science a foothold to work from.

No, they haven't been "rigourously tested."

This testing is blatant bull, those who stand to lose the most money do the "testing," they use ridiculously low dosages and don't make any other lifestyle modifications.

As to FDA safety, the drug maker has seats on the board that approves medicine (no conflict there), they squash negative studies (proved over and over) and they gloss over positive results.

Believing the FDA lo...

The various alternate sciences such as acupuncture, homeopathy,
praying, psychic healing, etc have all gone through vigorous testing
and proven to have no more effect than random chance. At best they
provide placebo science a foothold to work from.

No, they haven't been "rigourously tested."

This testing is blatant bull, those who stand to lose the most money do the "testing," they use ridiculously low dosages and don't make any other lifestyle modifications.

As to FDA safety, the drug maker has seats on the board that approves medicine (no conflict there), they squash negative studies (proved over and over) and they gloss over positive results.

Believing the FDA looks out for safety is like believing in Santa Clause. Except the end result can be worse health or death, not just lack of presents.

Enjoy your health anyway you choose. Just quit forcing the rest of us to take the same risks you so happily engage in.

Ok, lets stop playing the ambiguous game here. I've thrown out a broad net to see which woo science you would bite on and you seem to be biting them all. I'm not going to search out and list research and experiments for various woo sciences only to have you say "that's not the one I think works" so do me a favor and tell me exactly what alternate science you think hasn't been rigorously tested.

Are you talking acupuncture? Homeopathy? Vitamin therapy? Dowsing? Prayer? Spoon Bending? Alien Anal Insertions?

You do not put mercury and formaldehyde into something that is intended to benefit someone, not to mention genetically manipulated live viruses.

Funny. People once thought ...

Ok, lets stop playing the ambiguous game here. I've thrown out a broad net to see which woo science you would bite on and you seem to be biting them all. I'm not going to search out and list research and experiments for various woo sciences only to have you say "that's not the one I think works" so do me a favor and tell me exactly what alternate science you think hasn't been rigorously tested.

Are you talking acupuncture? Homeopathy? Vitamin therapy? Dowsing? Prayer? Spoon Bending? Alien Anal Insertions?

You do not put mercury and formaldehyde into something that is intended to benefit someone, not to mention genetically manipulated live viruses.

Funny. People once thought the same thing about early vaccinations against polio and the like.

I mean, it would be INSANE to think one would use snake poison to help treat a poisonous snake bite!

And it would help to understand that the mercury used to preserve vaccination fluids is a mercury compound called Thimerosal. It's been tested, and retested and tested again and then they went out and tested it even further and the finding is that it has nothing to do with the claims (mostly autism charges) that it harms people or children. Hell, they quit putting it in vaccinations just to be sure and guess what? The incidences of autism did not change and in some cases have increased!

So it surprises me that you, IW, would push this line of reasoning. Everything is lethal if taken in the wrong dosage. Even oxygen kills.