It isn't a religion issue and there is no reason to make it one (by mentioning that Muslims are the ones involved)

Ha! This should be interesting.

I would find a claim that Muslim women cannot have a simple way to meet
the sanitary standards without being forced to be publicly running
around with their arms exposed to below the elbow to be very suspect.

I find it incredulous that a nurse would not be aware of nominal hygiene requirements.

Looking up nurse images most are short sleeved but some scrub nurses
and other nurses are completely covered from arm to fingertips, with
rubber gloves

You're aware that before donning surgical gowns they must ...

It isn't a religion issue and there is no reason to make it one (by mentioning that Muslims are the ones involved)

Ha! This should be interesting.

I would find a claim that Muslim women cannot have a simple way to meet
the sanitary standards without being forced to be publicly running
around with their arms exposed to below the elbow to be very suspect.

I find it incredulous that a nurse would not be aware of nominal hygiene requirements.

Looking up nurse images most are short sleeved but some scrub nurses
and other nurses are completely covered from arm to fingertips, with
rubber gloves

You're aware that before donning surgical gowns they must wash their hands and arms! Often in public (oh the horror).

...it is safe to assume that all the Muslims are dead already, and an
investigation needs to be launched into who these fake Muslims in
Britain are...

Whatever...

...that it is hostility not health issues that drive the story.

I'm of the opinion that in the field of science religion should not intrude. It has nothing to do with hostility towards Islam itself. I've previously posted clips critical of Christian Scientist parents refusing blood transfusions for their children on religious grounds that have resulted in their children's death.

Are you interested in finding a solution or more interested in humiliating them?

I proposed a solution. It was that they abide by proven medical practices and adhere to procedures that are necessary to prevent the spread of infection. It seems what you are proposing is special privileges based on religion.

I also did not read that it has been proven the steps requested are needed.
The article said:

The measure is deemed necessary to stop the spread of infections such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile, which have killed hundreds.

Asked and answered.

I really doubt anyone thinks Muslim student nurses have killed
hundreds, so maybe th...

read more»

Are you interested in finding a solution or more interested in humiliating them?

I proposed a solution. It was that they abide by proven medical practices and adhere to procedures that are necessary to prevent the spread of infection. It seems what you are proposing is special privileges based on religion.

I also did not read that it has been proven the steps requested are needed.
The article said:

The measure is deemed necessary to stop the spread of infections such as MRSA and Clostridium difficile, which have killed hundreds.

Asked and answered.

I really doubt anyone thinks Muslim student nurses have killed
hundreds, so maybe the alleged needed procedure does not adress the
real issues, since nurses presumably doing it right are present on
cases where deaths result anyway.

That is a straw man argument. The article was about giving special privilege to members of a religion who failed to uphold basic hygiene requirement needed to perform their job.

And if they have to put on the gowns in public, perhaps they have to put on their panties and bra in public also.

This is your argument? Please back this up with facts.

So you say, but then why mention Islam at all.?

Because I see no indication that other religious sects are claiming special treatment.

And not one reader of your clip in a million is in any position to do anything real about the health situation

I can readily imagine people being made aware of this hygiene problem and beginning to ask questions and insist that proper procedures are followed.

But mentioning Muslims in context will certainly help justify the hate toward Muslims you already know is out there.

So you would suggest either special treatment towards particular religions that other people don't receive or simply turning a blind eye to the problem? Any religion that forces people not sharing that faith to adhere to the

...it does not matter whether it is one religion, or several different religions that have the practices...

The fact is that it is not other religious sects that have this problem.

it is not required to know the names of the particular religion(s) in order to solve the problem!

This is rather disingeneous since the particular religion's dictates are exactly the problem.

If the officials want to be hard asses and boot out all Muslims who do
not follow your religion, I have no problem with that. Boot them out,
great!

It is not a question about what religion is being followed. It is a question about the dictates of any religion trumping issu...

...it does not matter whether it is one religion, or several different religions that have the practices...

The fact is that it is not other religious sects that have this problem.

it is not required to know the names of the particular religion(s) in order to solve the problem!

This is rather disingeneous since the particular religion's dictates are exactly the problem.

If the officials want to be hard asses and boot out all Muslims who do
not follow your religion, I have no problem with that. Boot them out,
great!

It is not a question about what religion is being followed. It is a question about the dictates of any religion trumping issues that impact others.

But there is no need to publicize the settling of an administrative issue, which is what this is.

Actually no. This is a health issue brought on my religious arrogance.

To do so, to shower public scorn on Muslims when they are being widely
hated just for being Muslims is a case of trying to inflame that hate!

That's simply your opinion. Explain to me how any religion is immune to criticism.

If we were not in a period hating Muslims, the story wouldn't matter. It would be a yawner.

Maybe so. Personally I don't hate Muslims. I do not care for religious groups of any faith claiming special privilege based on their faith. We live in a multicultural society. People of all faiths enjoy the opportunity to compete and enjoy the fruits of what society offers. For anyone to endanger others because of a religious dogma is unacceptable.

If your entire argument is based on perceived hatred for Muslims than you're missing the point entirely.

@skwirlinator

The first rule of medicine is "do no harm".

Who's rule?

From various clippings; the lastmost from link:

The Hippocratic Oath is an oath that must be taken by practitioners entering the field of medicine. It originated with the Greek physician and teacher Hippocrates (ca.46O-ca.377 B.C.).

Hippocrates lived in Greece in the "Golden Century", when the Art and the Intellectuals searched for the first time the Truth., building in this way the basis of the contemporary scientific thought, perception and civilization.

His teaching is characterized by Ethic, which is al...

@skwirlinator

The first rule of medicine is "do no harm".

Who's rule?

From various clippings; the lastmost from link:

The Hippocratic Oath is an oath that must be taken by practitioners entering the field of medicine. It originated with the Greek physician and teacher Hippocrates (ca.46O-ca.377 B.C.).

Hippocrates lived in Greece in the "Golden Century", when the Art and the Intellectuals searched for the first time the Truth., building in this way the basis of the contemporary scientific thought, perception and civilization.

His teaching is characterized by Ethic, which is also seen especially in his Oath.

According to Hippocrates the diseases are not due to the "wrath of God" but to natural causes which bring about disturbances in the function of the organism.

The first rule is that the doctor must not hurt the patient with his decisions and his therapeutical choice. The doctor must facilitate with his intervention remedial natural process.

But you are in fact causing needless hurt to them.

Please elucidate how I am causing needless hurt to Muslims by pointing out the refusal of care givers to ingage in proper hygiene methods which puts others at risk and they're doing this because of their religious beliefs. So the onus of responsibility shifts to anyone who questions this religious dogma over scientific proof. What a load of crap.

having consideration for their feelings or plight in a western world

I think they are entitled to exactly the same treatment given others in this society. No more, no less.

You have yet to answer or address why anyone should be given special treatment because of rel...

But you are in fact causing needless hurt to them.

Please elucidate how I am causing needless hurt to Muslims by pointing out the refusal of care givers to ingage in proper hygiene methods which puts others at risk and they're doing this because of their religious beliefs. So the onus of responsibility shifts to anyone who questions this religious dogma over scientific proof. What a load of crap.

having consideration for their feelings or plight in a western world

I think they are entitled to exactly the same treatment given others in this society. No more, no less.

You have yet to answer or address why anyone should be given special treatment because of religious preferrence.

If you'd care to address the US involvement in Iraq (which I strongly oppose), I'd be glad to do so. The turmoil in the Middle East seems to have little or nothing to do with what this clip addresses yet you continue to attempt to conflat the two. Yes there are non-Muslims who are prejudice against all Muslims just as there are Muslims who wish harm against non-Muslims. That has nothing to do with health care in the UK.

Instead of positing false analogies why don't you address the issue at hand which is the refusal of a subset of health care professionals refusing to comply with basic hygiene requirements because of religious dogma.

You are the one that is jealous of someone getting special treatment.

LOL. So we'll simply sidestep the issue of infection caused by not washing their freaking arms. So in the interests of "being polite" we're to condone lapses in medical protocol.

In fact, we don't even need to know it is a religious issue, it could
be because of any reason or no reason at all. The issue changes not an
iota.

In fact, it is a religious issue. You are the one that,it seems because of some imagined affront you might cause, choose to dismiss the actual issue.

Both have their own religion, theirs is Islam, the Institutions is science.

Sorry, science is not a religi...

You are the one that is jealous of someone getting special treatment.

LOL. So we'll simply sidestep the issue of infection caused by not washing their freaking arms. So in the interests of "being polite" we're to condone lapses in medical protocol.

In fact, we don't even need to know it is a religious issue, it could
be because of any reason or no reason at all. The issue changes not an
iota.

In fact, it is a religious issue. You are the one that,it seems because of some imagined affront you might cause, choose to dismiss the actual issue.

Both have their own religion, theirs is Islam, the Institutions is science.

Sorry, science is not a religion. It is a methodology, not a creed or dogma. And I would dare say that science is superior to religion in combating illness.

I do not conflate the two. The two are real.

Look up the definition of conflate. Your statement is illogical.

Muslims are being killed in Iraq, threatened with nuclear strikes in Iran and being hated in western societies.

True. You left out the part of Muslims killing other Muslims in Iraq and sectarian strife all over the globe, much of it fueled by religious dogma. It is not only Muslim but Christian, Hindu, and Jewish sectarianism that fuels much of the violence in the world. That is why we must bring it out into the open and discuss it.

But hey, thanks to people like you it won't blow over.

Actually, I think you're give me much to much credit. And at least in the US we're entitled to free speech. Religion is not execmpt from criticism. In fact, if more people questioned religion perhaps a dialog would begin that would usher in change instead of meaningless accommodation.

We've already seen the results of people assuming that their own particular religion should be given special consideration. Creationists attempting to impose their ideology in science class. Pharmacists refusing to dispense contraceptiv

The question that should be raised is how much accommodation should be given to religion especially if that accommodation puts patients in jeopardy?

None. The first rule of medicine is "do no harm".

It's a hygiene issue. If anyone for any reason (faith, lack of training, beer, or a toothache), cannot or will not practice proper hygiene when accommodating a patient under their care, they are not fit for the job.

This must be a part of their professional expectation and they must subscribe to that practice and philosophy or they MUST be denied any license to practice professional health care.

The reason, religion or otherwise, should be irrelevan...

The question that should be raised is how much accommodation should be given to religion especially if that accommodation puts patients in jeopardy?

None. The first rule of medicine is "do no harm".

It's a hygiene issue. If anyone for any reason (faith, lack of training, beer, or a toothache), cannot or will not practice proper hygiene when accommodating a patient under their care, they are not fit for the job.

This must be a part of their professional expectation and they must subscribe to that practice and philosophy or they MUST be denied any license to practice professional health care.

The reason, religion or otherwise, should be irrelevant. The care of the patient comes first. Otherwise get the hell out of the business. (In my humble opinion.)

This is simply a way of you saying that when the world comes around to agreeing with you, perhaps we can usher in change.

That's nonsense. Personally I don't care what ideologies others hold. As long as others are not forced to adhere to these personal beliefs.

You have the answer

And since I disagree with your opinion you resort to ad hominem argumentation.

You assume that because science can gain what is called knowledge,

I hardly think I'm the only one who refers to scientific advancement as knowledge.

would be called miracles

Your words, not mine. These so called miracles are the work of many individuals utilizing the scie...

This is simply a way of you saying that when the world comes around to agreeing with you, perhaps we can usher in change.

That's nonsense. Personally I don't care what ideologies others hold. As long as others are not forced to adhere to these personal beliefs.

You have the answer

And since I disagree with your opinion you resort to ad hominem argumentation.

You assume that because science can gain what is called knowledge,

I hardly think I'm the only one who refers to scientific advancement as knowledge.

would be called miracles

Your words, not mine. These so called miracles are the work of many individuals utilizing the scientific method of experimentation and the ability to change and adapt that gives it its power.

no one had any idea how it was done, that this somehow 'proves' it is the way to go.

It seems your perception of science is not quite what science really is.

...We may have already sealed the doom of human life and yet in our ignorance still imagine ourselves the masters of our own fate.

Agreed. Do you care to suggest who else might bail us out of whatever your referencing?

Science is a religion. You do not see that.

Sorry, there is nothing religious about science nor does it fulfill any requirement for being a religion. If you disagree try providing an argument for your position instead of simple asserting that it is the case.

ONLY SOMEONE WHO HAS ULTIMATE KNOWLEDGE CAN POSSIBLY KNOW WHAT THE REAL TRUE VALUES ARE!

The truth comes out. You, I assume are referring to a god. Even though you tried to deny this earlier.

I say that because I disagree with your attitude,

So?

But being in favor of good hygiene does not mean one must be cruel or

As I've said repeatedly, criticism of an idea should not be automatically construed as being "cruel".

And it is absolutely unproven that the world would

Quote:
And it is absolutely unproven that the world would be a better place if there had never been any religion in it.

Never said that is the case.

This is simply a way of you saying that when the world comes around to agreeing with you, perhaps we can usher in change.

That's nonsense. Personally I don't care what ideologies others hold. As long as others are not forced to adhere to these personal beliefs.

You have the answer

And since I disagree with your opinion you resort to ad hominem argumentation.

You assume that because science can gain what is called knowledge,

I hardly think I'm the only one who refers to scientific advancement as k...

Quote:
And it is absolutely unproven that the world would be a better place if there had never been any religion in it.

Never said that is the case.

This is simply a way of you saying that when the world comes around to agreeing with you, perhaps we can usher in change.

That's nonsense. Personally I don't care what ideologies others hold. As long as others are not forced to adhere to these personal beliefs.

You have the answer

And since I disagree with your opinion you resort to ad hominem argumentation.

You assume that because science can gain what is called knowledge,

I hardly think I'm the only one who refers to scientific advancement as knowledge.

would be called miracles

Your words, not mine. These so called miracles are the work of many individuals utilizing the scientific method of experimentation and the ability to change and adapt that gives it its power.

no one had any idea how it was done, that this somehow 'proves' it is the way to go.

It seems your perception of science is not quite what science really is.

...We may have already sealed the doom of human life and yet in our ignorance still imagine ourselves the masters of our own fate.

Agreed. Do you care to suggest who else might bail us out of whatever your referencing?

Science is a religion. You do not see that.

Sorry, there is nothing religious about science nor does it fulfill any requirement for being a religion. If you disagree try providing an argument for your position instead of simple asserting that it is the case.

ONLY SOMEONE WHO HAS ULTIMATE KNOWLEDGE CAN POSSIBLY KNOW WHAT THE REAL TRUE VALUES ARE!

The truth comes out. You, I assume are referring to a god. Even though you tried to deny this earlier.

I say that because I disagree with your attitude,

So?
be a better place uote]

But being in favor of good hygiene does not mean one must be cruel or

As I've said repeatedly, criticism of an idea should not be automatically construed as being "cruel".

And it is absolutely unproven that the world would be a better place

Never said that's the case though I suspect religion has had both positive and negative effects on society as a whole. The question should be do I feel that religion has a place in the 21st Century and I'd have to say no. Will my per...

The truth comes out. You, I assume are referring to a god. Even though you tried to deny this earlier.

I say that because I disagree with your attitude,

So?
be a better place uote]

But being in favor of good hygiene does not mean one must be cruel or

As I've said repeatedly, criticism of an idea should not be automatically construed as being "cruel".

And it is absolutely unproven that the world would be a better place

Never said that's the case though I suspect religion has had both positive and negative effects on society as a whole. The question should be do I feel that religion has a place in the 21st Century and I'd have to say no. Will my personal opinion have an effect? Of course not. Religion will continue far after both you and I are gone.

There recently has been an opening up of people willing to talk plainly about religious thought. For most, religious criticism is still taboo. I happen to feel that that is changing and I think this is good. We disagree about how to go about that. I appear to be more straight forward in how I express myself to others. That is my style and I will not apologize for it. It's served me well for over 6 decades and I see no reason to change now.

Except I replace establishment with AtlLiberal

Ha! It's been a while since I've been compared with being in line with the establishment.

replace accusation of bias(by Muslims) with inflaming bias (toward Muslims)

OK. Like I said previously, we have differing approaches to dealing with this. I would dare say I'm more provocative and "in your face" than you are. My conscious prohibits me from not speaking out when I see wrongs committed for such an absurd reason. Thankfully, I live in an environment that allows me to do so. I believe if I lived in a theocracy my fate would be far different. And rest assured, there is a sizable portion of the US that gravitates...

Except I replace establishment with AtlLiberal

Ha! It's been a while since I've been compared with being in line with the establishment.

replace accusation of bias(by Muslims) with inflaming bias (toward Muslims)

OK. Like I said previously, we have differing approaches to dealing with this. I would dare say I'm more provocative and "in your face" than you are. My conscious prohibits me from not speaking out when I see wrongs committed for such an absurd reason. Thankfully, I live in an environment that allows me to do so. I believe if I lived in a theocracy my fate would be far different. And rest assured, there is a sizable portion of the US that gravitates to the goal of making this into, at least, a more religious country (if that can be conceived of). They do this because in their minds it is a solution to what they perceive as what's wroong with this country. Obviously I don't share their perspective. At any rate, that's my humble opinion.

Oh, and I do not expect you to believe me on these self descriptions of
myself, because I am aware that you perceive me differently

Actually I have no reason to doubt your word since I believe everyone's knowing themselves is a tautology.

And just for the record, I appreciate your own personal disclosure as it answers many questions posed by this back and forth we've had. Yes, there are many points of similarity.

Further, I have basically accepted the idea that you are more anti
religion (what religion represents, untested claims and unfair demands
and controls of people) in general, and that this is your thrust, not
any desire to hurt Muslims in a personal way.[/quo...

read more»

Oh, and I do not expect you to believe me on these self descriptions of
myself, because I am aware that you perceive me differently

Actually I have no reason to doubt your word since I believe everyone's knowing themselves is a tautology.

And just for the record, I appreciate your own personal disclosure as it answers many questions posed by this back and forth we've had. Yes, there are many points of similarity.

Further, I have basically accepted the idea that you are more anti
religion (what religion represents, untested claims and unfair demands
and controls of people) in general, and that this is your thrust, not
any desire to hurt Muslims in a personal way.

Thank you! Whew! sometimes it takes several trips around the track for us to reach some level of understanding. But perseverance pays off occasionally.