Practically ALL major media in the US 'consistently go against the government'... what are you talking about?

It is somewhat strange to see a little country like Israel, having such an intimate knowledge of the problem of terrorism, still doing the liberal dance, ala US liberals... but that's a tiny portion of Israel, from what I've been told by the locals there.

Israelis had hopes that Rabin era would bring some sort of lasting peace - that didn't work. Then they put their trust after Barak, after Clinton & Co. managed to smear Netanyahu enough to drive him out of the office... that was a huge mistake in retrospect... so now most Israelis are wising up finally, but not all of them appare...

Practically ALL major media in the US 'consistently go against the government'... what are you talking about?

It is somewhat strange to see a little country like Israel, having such an intimate knowledge of the problem of terrorism, still doing the liberal dance, ala US liberals... but that's a tiny portion of Israel, from what I've been told by the locals there.

Israelis had hopes that Rabin era would bring some sort of lasting peace - that didn't work. Then they put their trust after Barak, after Clinton & Co. managed to smear Netanyahu enough to drive him out of the office... that was a huge mistake in retrospect... so now most Israelis are wising up finally, but not all of them apparently.

As I said before, for some people a bomb needs to explode in their back yard for them to see the light (or most likely in such event - to stop seeing everything).

arifsali, let's not change history here...

WWII didn't end because of finding 'commonality' - it ended when the Germans were beat conclusively on the battlefield and devastated to the point of no return. WWI was the example that just winning somewhat and leaving the country be doesn't work. There was no agreement between hitler and the rest of the world, just some agreements that he signed and broke (ala palestinians doing the same)

The palestinians need to take a few very simple steps if they really wanted peace (which I maintain - they don't... they're bent on agenda not unlike hitler's):

1) Acknowledge Israel as a country and a neighbor
2) Renounce and stop terrorism
3) Go to UN, pu...

arifsali, let's not change history here...

WWII didn't end because of finding 'commonality' - it ended when the Germans were beat conclusively on the battlefield and devastated to the point of no return. WWI was the example that just winning somewhat and leaving the country be doesn't work. There was no agreement between hitler and the rest of the world, just some agreements that he signed and broke (ala palestinians doing the same)

The palestinians need to take a few very simple steps if they really wanted peace (which I maintain - they don't... they're bent on agenda not unlike hitler's):

1) Acknowledge Israel as a country and a neighbor
2) Renounce and stop terrorism
3) Go to UN, pull out the arafat smile and say 'hey, we need some assistance here' (the word 'hey' is optional as is the smile)

That's it. Seems like a rather simple plan to implement, no? Well, it would be if you really DID want peace. Because they're not implementing anything of the kind and continue with their approach of IEDs, suicide bombers of themselves and their children - we have what we have.

So, with that being the case - how do you see a 'common vision' emerging here? Where's a shred of evidence that the palestinians want peace?

btw, I don't mean to speak for wilhelm, so I'll just assume here that he wasn't speaking of 'it' being a comedy, more of you and jklugmans being comedic and considering how anti-government and anti-Bush the press really is here - I can certainly see his point... you must be joking when you say it isn't the case.

Bush would have been out of office if the press was anti-bush, he's still holding office after so much mess at home and abroad is a proof that press is his baby in the lap. You know press can single handedly sway the public opinion on any government (ask any third world country where press isn't free. Okay, I give you that press is free here, but they are incompetent in objective journalism, save few daring outlets)

Above, your suggestions are so easy and dandy, you asking Palestinans to do all the chores, and Israel just gets his wishes?. Okay, forget about the idiosyncrasy of such a demand, only focus on West's inability to understand the Middle East (read Arabs), their lack of respec...

Bush would have been out of office if the press was anti-bush, he's still holding office after so much mess at home and abroad is a proof that press is his baby in the lap. You know press can single handedly sway the public opinion on any government (ask any third world country where press isn't free. Okay, I give you that press is free here, but they are incompetent in objective journalism, save few daring outlets)

Above, your suggestions are so easy and dandy, you asking Palestinans to do all the chores, and Israel just gets his wishes?. Okay, forget about the idiosyncrasy of such a demand, only focus on West's inability to understand the Middle East (read Arabs), their lack of respect for other's honor. You know how big honor plays a part in Arab culture? (don't ask Bush this question, because he went to Iraq with a poop of knowledge on Arab culture) Yes, I can bet that Israelis know Arab's culture very well because they live with them. Now, wonder why Israelis don't care about Arab's honor? You got yourself your answer.

Common vision doesn't always have to come after destruction, it can come without any destruction, it only takes a will and determination (and no neocon empire builders in the world, but I won't go there now).

@arisfali,

You seem to be making these generalized comments like they're obviously true, when in fact they're nothing at all as you state.

Press, 2/3rds of it, are left-leaning and so they're definitely anti-Bush. If you don't think that's the case - you're just not listening to what they're saying. And there is no 'mess here and there', what we've got here is a country that suffered a major and stunning hit on 9/11, targeted directly at the core of financial infrastructure, which normally would've seriously hurt the economy and many other things around it. Also, we're in the middle of a war in Iraq and Afghanistan... yet the economy was able to be brought back in check, stock marke...

@arisfali,

You seem to be making these generalized comments like they're obviously true, when in fact they're nothing at all as you state.

Press, 2/3rds of it, are left-leaning and so they're definitely anti-Bush. If you don't think that's the case - you're just not listening to what they're saying. And there is no 'mess here and there', what we've got here is a country that suffered a major and stunning hit on 9/11, targeted directly at the core of financial infrastructure, which normally would've seriously hurt the economy and many other things around it. Also, we're in the middle of a war in Iraq and Afghanistan... yet the economy was able to be brought back in check, stock market (a typical barometer of the economy) seems to be doing reasonably well and unemployment is very low. So, things aren't a 'mess' as you indicated... The reason there's this shrill opposition coming from the left, i.e. the Dems, is because they want their power back. After running the place for 40 years, one can certainly understand that. The foreign stuff isn't going as well as one would hope isn't because of anything Bush did or didn't do... it's because of arabs are... being arabs. Apparently living normal lives, raising their children and trynig to be reasonably happy isn't part of their 'honor' system - they need to be killing each other to keep the happiness factor in check and that's what's going on in Iraq. The fact that Iraq is on the verge (or already) in civil war has nothing to do US or Bush - it's the 'honor' you're talking about. So fine - they want to kill each other - let them do it. One thing I've learned over the years that no matter how much you want to help someone - you should never have your desire to help be greater than their desire to get help.

As for 'knowing' arab culture - I don't, I don't dispute it, but I can't/won't get behind anyone who thinks terrorism is any kind of solution and that's what the arab world projects.

and I'm sure the Israelis know arab culture well... they have thousands living and working in Israel... clearly showing that it's possible to live with them... (although show me the reverse anywhere).

As for my solution - yes, it is very simple. Which is exactly why I suggest it... I don't understand what you mean by 'all the chores'. Are you saying palestinians have to commit terrorism and they can't stop on their own? Apparently so, which is why Israel is doing what it's doing in Lebanon. If you want to honestly discuss things, then take your arab hat off for a second and just think logically. What would be so terrible for the palestinians if they adopted my solution? What's the d...

and I'm sure the Israelis know arab culture well... they have thousands living and working in Israel... clearly showing that it's possible to live with them... (although show me the reverse anywhere).

As for my solution - yes, it is very simple. Which is exactly why I suggest it... I don't understand what you mean by 'all the chores'. Are you saying palestinians have to commit terrorism and they can't stop on their own? Apparently so, which is why Israel is doing what it's doing in Lebanon. If you want to honestly discuss things, then take your arab hat off for a second and just think logically. What would be so terrible for the palestinians if they adopted my solution? What's the downside - their honor would be shattered... what honor is there to send your kid to blow him/herself up? That's the reason you have children? So you can send them to die? and that's some kind of honor?

My solution would actually take care of 2 things for the palestinians, both very positive:

1) They would immediately get a ton of support and attention from all kinds of countries, starting with ours, btw.
2) They would politically cripple Israel's ability to start a war... because if Israel did after the above steps were in place - the world would not only condemn them, but ensure they don't. Personally I don't believe this would've been an issue, because if the above was done - Israel would live in peace, but regardless politically palestinian lose nothing and gain everywhere.

This of course ONLY works if the palestinians want peace and want to live decently... if however their agenda is not such - then of course none of this would happen and would work.