I cannot deny that I start with a conclusion.

That is, God's
Holy Spirit lives in me and his word works in my life and the life of
my family and friends and fellow Christians around the world. I don't
really have a choice about that. Its undeniable. Although I believe I
try to remain as neutral as possible when examining your evidence. I
think thats pretty intellectually honest?

But don't you have
the exact same pre-assumptions (God doesn't exist) and you work from
there. Making things fit? Isn't that a bias?

Every argument you put at Christianity has to be put just as harshly to atheism, or whatever you choose to believe.

IF
you presented me with suitable evidence that there was no Go...

I cannot deny that I start with a conclusion.

That is, God's
Holy Spirit lives in me and his word works in my life and the life of
my family and friends and fellow Christians around the world. I don't
really have a choice about that. Its undeniable. Although I believe I
try to remain as neutral as possible when examining your evidence. I
think thats pretty intellectually honest?

But don't you have
the exact same pre-assumptions (God doesn't exist) and you work from
there. Making things fit? Isn't that a bias?

Every argument you put at Christianity has to be put just as harshly to atheism, or whatever you choose to believe.

IF
you presented me with suitable evidence that there was no God (provided
an explanation for the healing, transformations and revelations amongst
other things) in my brothers and sisters lives through the power of
God, then sure I would consider becoming an atheist. Yet no atheist has
even come close!

If there is no god, there would still be good, and there would still be evil.

No,
without God there would not be good and evil. How would we know that
good is good and not evil? How would we know that evil is actually
destructive to our societies? Sure, history proves that immorality and
evil acts have provided substancial downfalls for the societies. Though
has not God placed in every human being a conscience? So that when an
innocent child is murdered we say "That is wrong!"


God is required to explain the moral law by which we live by.
(knowing what we ought to do, that is, a willingness to do good). This
moral law is without bias. We all have it. God explains it- a
conscience.

But don't you have the exact same pre-assumptions (God doesn't exist) and you work from there. Making things fit?

Nope. That would be intellectually dishonest. I do not START from the position that there is no god. I just don't insert one whenever a gap exists between the evidence and my understanding of the evidence.

"..God's Holy Spirit lives in me ... and my family and friends.."

See? But I guess god's holy spirit DOESN'T live in the suicide bomber?

It's all "pretend". It's all make believe. Even between you and your friends, you couldn't prove any holy spirit if your lives depended on it.

You KNOW this is the real truth; that the truth you pretend i...

But don't you have the exact same pre-assumptions (God doesn't exist) and you work from there. Making things fit?

Nope. That would be intellectually dishonest. I do not START from the position that there is no god. I just don't insert one whenever a gap exists between the evidence and my understanding of the evidence.

"..God's Holy Spirit lives in me ... and my family and friends.."

See? But I guess god's holy spirit DOESN'T live in the suicide bomber?

It's all "pretend". It's all make believe. Even between you and your friends, you couldn't prove any holy spirit if your lives depended on it.

You KNOW this is the real truth; that the truth you pretend is nothing more an emotional feeling you've been indoctrinated to try to feel.

Again, this can be proven. But after that, it's not like you didn't already know anyways. OF COURSE you know. You just prefer to pretend in order to make yourself feel "special".

without God there would not be good and evil. How would we know that good is good and not evil?

Do you mean that you couldn't tell that child molestation, rape, and murder are evil WITHOUT a god saying so? It takes no god to feel empathy. Again, you're simply being dishonest. You simply deny it all by saying "god put it there". Same confirmation bias. Same dishonesty.

Why are you afraid to start with the facts, instead of with the conclusion? Why are you afraid of honesty? Why are you afraid of truth?

I just don't insert one whenever a gap exists between the evidence and my understanding of the evidence.

I don't do that. I take the evidence and examine it for what it is, just like anyone else. I'm not sure where you've got that idea from?
The thing is, no evidence you have presented has pointed to anything other than God.

But I guess god's holy spirit DOESN'T live in the suicide bomber?

I'm not sure how many Christian suicide bombers there have been in history. But even if there were I'd say that since the teachings of Christ and the Bible contradict that action, then they may not be Christians.
Whereas the Islamic faith endorses those actions in the Quran...

I just don't insert one whenever a gap exists between the evidence and my understanding of the evidence.

I don't do that. I take the evidence and examine it for what it is, just like anyone else. I'm not sure where you've got that idea from?
The thing is, no evidence you have presented has pointed to anything other than God.

But I guess god's holy spirit DOESN'T live in the suicide bomber?

I'm not sure how many Christian suicide bombers there have been in history. But even if there were I'd say that since the teachings of Christ and the Bible contradict that action, then they may not be Christians.
Whereas the Islamic faith endorses those actions in the Quran, therefore justifying their reasoning behind blowing themselves up (and often others).

The transformative, restorative nature of the Holy Spirit is quite amazing. I'm not sure if you've had the chance to talk to someone like Daniel Shayesteh who was a radical extremist, converted-transformed by the spirit of Christ. (escapefromdarkness.org)
He preached at my chruch the other week. It was so amazing. But it was probably just the spaghetti monster aye.

There are three reasons that people supress the truth of Christ:
1.- Love their sins (or a particular sin) too much to give it up.
2.- Too proud to submit to anyone. (God)
3.- Think they have committed too many horrible sins and don't deserve forgiveness. (unlikely)

Do you mean that you couldn't tell that child molestation, rape, and murder are evil WITHOUT a god saying so?

No, I'm saying that without God creating us in a way that feels empathy and a sense of injustice when these terrible crimes are committed then the world would be in chaos.

You still haven't reasonably responded to this moral law argument that human beings created out of matter and chemicals can have a sense of justice, love, good and evil and a "wanting to do good" attitude.

I don't think I'm being dishonest. I think I'm

Me:

I just don't insert one whenever a gap exists between the evidence and my understanding of the evidence.

You:

I don't do that. I take the evidence and examine it for what it is, just like anyone else. I'm not sure where you've got that idea from?

Here, again, I'll show you where I got the idea from:
--

Notice you responded to:
(Me):

Do you mean that you couldn't tell that child molestation, rape, and murder are evil WITHOUT a god saying so?

You:

No, I'm saying that without God creating us in a way that feels empathy and a sense of injustice when these terrible crimes are committed then the world would be in chaos.

--
See. Y...

Me:

I just don't insert one whenever a gap exists between the evidence and my understanding of the evidence.

You:

I don't do that. I take the evidence and examine it for what it is, just like anyone else. I'm not sure where you've got that idea from?

Here, again, I'll show you where I got the idea from:
--

Notice you responded to:
(Me):

Do you mean that you couldn't tell that child molestation, rape, and murder are evil WITHOUT a god saying so?

You:

No, I'm saying that without God creating us in a way that feels empathy and a sense of injustice when these terrible crimes are committed then the world would be in chaos.

--
See. You just gave a perfect example of what you said you didn't do! You simply inserted a god at the point where your reasoning faltered.

You said "without GOD CREATING US IN A WAY THAT FEELS EMPATHY and a sense of justice..."

See? We have a sense of justice because we can feel empathy. You couldn't accept that honestly by saying "yes, we DO feel empathy." Instead you inserted a god by saying "yes, we do feel empathy...'cause GOD GAVE IT TO US'..."

And now you know where I got the accusation from. It agrees exactly with what I wrote above:

"It takes no god to feel empathy. Again, you're simply being dishonest. You simply deny it all by saying "god put it there".

And again that's exactly what you did!

-----

You still haven't reasonably responded to this moral law argument that human beings created out of matter and chemicals can have a sense of justice, love, good and evil and a "wanting to do good" attitude.

We can have a sense of justice because we can feel. We can feel because we have a nervous system. We can feel for others because we have an imagination. We can imagine what it would feel like to us.

See. You just gave a perfect example of what you said you didn't do! You simply inserted a god at the point where your reasoning faltered.

So I'm supposed to examine the evidence which points to God without mentioning God? I could accuse you of the same thing. Your inserting that there is no God where your reasoning failed. But my reasoning is not failing. I'm honestly examining the evidence and coming to the conclusion of God.

We can have a sense of justice because we can feel

Thats rubbish. Feel because we have a nervous system? Give me a break. Please provide some evidence apart form God that has the capacity to explain:

1. N...

See. You just gave a perfect example of what you said you didn't do! You simply inserted a god at the point where your reasoning faltered.

So I'm supposed to examine the evidence which points to God without mentioning God? I could accuse you of the same thing. Your inserting that there is no God where your reasoning failed. But my reasoning is not failing. I'm honestly examining the evidence and coming to the conclusion of God.

We can have a sense of justice because we can feel

Thats rubbish. Feel because we have a nervous system? Give me a break. Please provide some evidence apart form God that has the capacity to explain:

1. Nervous System
2. Imagination
3. Sense of justice, empathy, good and evil etc.

So I'm supposed to examine the evidence which points to God without mentioning God?

Same trick, just in the form of a question. You're supposed to examine the evidence and find out what was its cause. If any evidence led you to a god, then you should be able to PRODUCE a god. And anyone else should be able to find a god from the evidence you examined. So where is this god? (No mataphors here please. The real thing only, thank you.)

"Feel because we have a nervous system? Give me a break."

Not much science in your education, eh. Tell you what; since you won't accept it from me, go to your medical doctor, and take along a good size brick.

In the presence ...

So I'm supposed to examine the evidence which points to God without mentioning God?

Same trick, just in the form of a question. You're supposed to examine the evidence and find out what was its cause. If any evidence led you to a god, then you should be able to PRODUCE a god. And anyone else should be able to find a god from the evidence you examined. So where is this god? (No mataphors here please. The real thing only, thank you.)

"Feel because we have a nervous system? Give me a break."

Not much science in your education, eh. Tell you what; since you won't accept it from me, go to your medical doctor, and take along a good size brick.

In the presence of your doctor, ask her if you would "feel" anything if you drop that brick on your toe.

Ask her WHY you would feel...well...pain. And she will explain to you about the nervous system.

That being done, because we can feel pain, we can imagine what it would feel like in others.

We do not want to feel pain ourselves (or injustice, for example) because we can imagine what it would feel like to us, when we see it happen to others.

Our similar experiences give us the ability to empathize with one another.

I'm sure you understand completely. You just have a need to give credit to an invisible deity so it can bestow upon you its favor. Believe me, I understand.

In truth, though, you know nothing about how the nervous system developed, whether by evolution or by a god. The honest approach would thus be to say so.

Empathy? It would be more honest to say "I don't know" how we got empathy, instead of "god gave it to us."

In truth, you have not one solitary fact of any god giving anyone anything. You know this, and I know this. But you insist "god did it". This is not honest. It's pretend.

You're supposed to examine the evidence and find out what was its cause. If any evidence led you to a god, then you should be able to PRODUCE a god

Thats like saying prove to me you love someone. You can't prove that you love someone. He's not a science experiment. You cannot produce your love in physical form. I can see the effects of it on your famliy, people you love etc. But you can't prove you love someone like the way your asking me to prove God. But we both know you love. And we both know God exists. We can see the evidence. We can see the effects on my life and the effects on Christians all around the world. We can see the detailed creation. What ...

You're supposed to examine the evidence and find out what was its cause. If any evidence led you to a god, then you should be able to PRODUCE a god

Thats like saying prove to me you love someone. You can't prove that you love someone. He's not a science experiment. You cannot produce your love in physical form. I can see the effects of it on your famliy, people you love etc. But you can't prove you love someone like the way your asking me to prove God. But we both know you love. And we both know God exists. We can see the evidence. We can see the effects on my life and the effects on Christians all around the world. We can see the detailed creation. What would I gain out of lying to you?

I don't doubt your theory that we feel pain cause we have a nervous system, imagine it happening to other people etc. That leads me to God rather than anything else. Thats proof of an intracitely designed creation. Is it not? Is not our feelings, our imagination and our sense of love, justice and empathy absolutely mindblowing. And isn't it a coincidence that everyone on earth has it? Isn't it a coincidence that it fits perfectly into the God we claim created the universe? I think not.

Its honest for me to present you what I believe is the truth. Is it not?

Isn't it a coincidence that it fits perfectly into the God we claim created the universe?

The things you claim prove god, (love, probability, justice, etc..) are arbitrary. You may as well say, "see, clouds exist...therefore god."

It is clear that you have been led to believe that interesting things equals god. I do not fault you for this.

I used to believe these things too. Until one day (quite by accident) I decided that god could not be stupid [assumed by the definition of omniscience].

Holding to that belief, it became clear that certain things could not have been inspired by god as I was told (because those things would make god stupid).

Like the stars being created...

Isn't it a coincidence that it fits perfectly into the God we claim created the universe?

The things you claim prove god, (love, probability, justice, etc..) are arbitrary. You may as well say, "see, clouds exist...therefore god."

It is clear that you have been led to believe that interesting things equals god. I do not fault you for this.

I used to believe these things too. Until one day (quite by accident) I decided that god could not be stupid [assumed by the definition of omniscience].

Holding to that belief, it became clear that certain things could not have been inspired by god as I was told (because those things would make god stupid).

Like the stars being created on day 4, when the earth was created on day one. Wouldn't god know that certain stars predate the earth by billions of years, and also that some stars are being formed even as we speak? I realized that god would know this, but 1st century man would not.

Wouldn't god know that people got sick by microscopic germs, and certain genetic problems as well? But even Jesus went around "casting out demons" because they didn't know about germs!

But wouldn't god know?

It became clear that these so-called "god-inspired" scriptures could only have been inspired FROM a god that knew no more than a 1st century man.

Yes, seano77, God might exist. But he couldn't possibly be that stupid. Could he?

Thank You for being honest.

I see your point.

But are you really willing to risk your potential eternity on the dating of stars, which could possibly be found to be false in a couple of hundred years?

Are you willing to risk your potential eternity on the fact that microscopic germs make us sick?

This link shows some examples of how the bible held information which science had only recently discovered as true:

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scienceconfirmsthebible.shtml

From this link it as quite apparent that God knows more than the 1st Century man and we still haven't found cures to everything and we still don't knnow how everything exists.

I cannot see God's stupidity....

Thank You for being honest.

I see your point.

But are you really willing to risk your potential eternity on the dating of stars, which could possibly be found to be false in a couple of hundred years?

Are you willing to risk your potential eternity on the fact that microscopic germs make us sick?

This link shows some examples of how the bible held information which science had only recently discovered as true:

http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/scienceconfirmsthebible.shtml

From this link it as quite apparent that God knows more than the 1st Century man and we still haven't found cures to everything and we still don't knnow how everything exists.

I cannot see God's stupidity. To be able to make an immune system alone is quite brilliant. An inbuilt defense against sickness. In one human that would be amazing. But billions?

I could ramble on forever about the detail in the universe- I just don't God as stupid. Mathematics is another example.

I'm not sure about the dating of stars.

I'm not sure what your point is about Jesus casting out demons?

Is it possible that we don't understand these concepts properly, and compared to the absolute detail and beauty and intelligence of the universe they really are insignificant?

But what I do know is that I'm not risking my eternity on these things which could easily be refuted when its too late.

I pray you don't too.

I see your point.

Nope. I think you missed it completely.

But then, it's clear -- you're not interested in the truth. You're interested in salvation.

You've been told that you're inherently evil, and that you must BELIEVE and subscribe to certain dogma to be cleansed from it, so you can live forever and avoid eternal torment.

You are simply afraid. They made you believe in a monster that's all loving and all hateful at the same time. But you can get on his good side by (your donations) believing it!

You had to sacrifice your integrity in order to believe it. And look at the results. You'll believe anything.

And it's sad.

I can only hope you don't go around kil...

I see your point.

Nope. I think you missed it completely.

But then, it's clear -- you're not interested in the truth. You're interested in salvation.

You've been told that you're inherently evil, and that you must BELIEVE and subscribe to certain dogma to be cleansed from it, so you can live forever and avoid eternal torment.

You are simply afraid. They made you believe in a monster that's all loving and all hateful at the same time. But you can get on his good side by (your donations) believing it!

You had to sacrifice your integrity in order to believe it. And look at the results. You'll believe anything.

And it's sad.

I can only hope you don't go around killing people and destroying the freedoms of others. If they can make you believe anything, they can make you DO anything.

Remember, 9/11 was a faith-based initiative.

you're not interested in the truth. You're interested in salvation.

But when that truth is salvation then..

You are simply afraid

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Prov. 1:7)

But you can get on his good side by (your donations) believing it!

Nah.. salvation isn't through donations. It's repentance and faith in Jesus and trusting Him with your life. I think your also missing something- That is the relationship with Him on earth which is just so amazing when your saved.

You had to sacrifice your integrity in order to believe it.

I gained my integrity when I believed! My actions no longer go against ...

you're not interested in the truth. You're interested in salvation.

But when that truth is salvation then..

You are simply afraid

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Prov. 1:7)

But you can get on his good side by (your donations) believing it!

Nah.. salvation isn't through donations. It's repentance and faith in Jesus and trusting Him with your life. I think your also missing something- That is the relationship with Him on earth which is just so amazing when your saved.

You had to sacrifice your integrity in order to believe it.

I gained my integrity when I believed! My actions no longer go against the moral law which God gave us. My life is redeemed, saved by the God which created me.

You'll believe anything.

Ah..no.

I can only hope you don't go around killing people and destroying the freedoms of others.

Killing?...The Bible doesn't condone killing. Destroying freedom? how is that possible?

Remember, 9/11 was a faith-based initiative.

Yes, a faith which condones killing for your faith, unlike Christianity.

Remember, 9/11 was a faith-based initiative.

Killing?...The Bible doesn't condone killing.

Ever heard of President Bush? Ever heard of the Crusades, or the Inquisition? Did you know that there were several inquisitions, spanning over 600 years of Christian atrocities of murder and torture?

You know nothing about the history of your own religion, do you? You take what they tell you, and do no investigation on your own. Even if you read the bible (instead of having it spoon fed you from a pulpit) you'll find god-ordered atrocity after atrocity.

You said you believed the bible? How do you deal with god telling Moses to kill every person in a town that won't ...

Remember, 9/11 was a faith-based initiative.

Killing?...The Bible doesn't condone killing.

Ever heard of President Bush? Ever heard of the Crusades, or the Inquisition? Did you know that there were several inquisitions, spanning over 600 years of Christian atrocities of murder and torture?

You know nothing about the history of your own religion, do you? You take what they tell you, and do no investigation on your own. Even if you read the bible (instead of having it spoon fed you from a pulpit) you'll find god-ordered atrocity after atrocity.

You said you believed the bible? How do you deal with god telling Moses to kill every person in a town that won't submit to slavery; to kill every man, woman and child, except the young girls (if they're virgin) they could keep as booty. Is this the morality you were talking about that comes from your god?

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Num 31:17-18 (KJV)

And there are countless atrocities committed and ordered by your so-called god of moral love.

But you are blind to them because you've agreed to become dishonest about anything that questions what you've been told to believe.

You deny reason like it's a virtue; you put faith over fact, and you think a god would reward such credulity over the honest investigator, for eternity.

It's just amazing what you can get people to believe.

Why did America vote for him if he's a killer? Huh? I'm sure without the non-christian vote he wouldn't have got elected-

Ever heard of the Crusades, or the Inquisition?

People killing people who claim to be Christians are not Christians. Hence the 1 John passage.

Anyway, what happens to all the atheists who kill people? Ah..thats ok don't worry, life is meaningless anyway, right?

You take what they tell you, and do no investigation on your own.

Not true. That would be intellectually dishonest, right?

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones..

I'm glad you brought this one up. This is another example of when people rebel G...

Why did America vote for him if he's a killer? Huh? I'm sure without the non-christian vote he wouldn't have got elected-

Ever heard of the Crusades, or the Inquisition?

People killing people who claim to be Christians are not Christians. Hence the 1 John passage.

Anyway, what happens to all the atheists who kill people? Ah..thats ok don't worry, life is meaningless anyway, right?

You take what they tell you, and do no investigation on your own.

Not true. That would be intellectually dishonest, right?

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones..

I'm glad you brought this one up. This is another example of when people rebel God doesn't like it, hence the destruction and killing. Just like on judgement day. Rebellion against God is our way of saying we don't want you. Hell is God's way of saying "Ok". These people rejected God.

But the keeping the virgins is a different thing. I understand your angle. But when you look at it in context God wasn't condoning rape or saying keep the "booty" as you say. By saying "keep alive for yourselves", it means don't kill the virgins as they can be potential wives. You've just revealded our soceities obsession with sex. Thank you. Out of God's mercy he spared the women's lives because He thought they'd make good wives. ok? good.

For your information I questioned this with my own intellect.

Why did America vote for him if he's a killer? Huh?

You forget, he's also a liar. Did you know that well over 100,000 innocent civilians were killed in the name of the Iraq war, a war based on a lie? (Independent agencies not connected with the Bush regime put the figure at around 600,000.) Is Bush a Christian? THAT WAS MY POINT.

"People killing people who claim to be Christians are not Christians."

Obviously you were not aware that the Inquisitions were commissioned by and led by [successive] the Pope! Is the Pope Christian? THAT WAS MY POINT.

"Anyway, what happens to all the atheists who kill people?"

Hopefully, like anyone else, they'...

Why did America vote for him if he's a killer? Huh?

You forget, he's also a liar. Did you know that well over 100,000 innocent civilians were killed in the name of the Iraq war, a war based on a lie? (Independent agencies not connected with the Bush regime put the figure at around 600,000.) Is Bush a Christian? THAT WAS MY POINT.

"People killing people who claim to be Christians are not Christians."

Obviously you were not aware that the Inquisitions were commissioned by and led by [successive] the Pope! Is the Pope Christian? THAT WAS MY POINT.

"Anyway, what happens to all the atheists who kill people?"

Hopefully, like anyone else, they're prosecuted. But that's not the issue is it? All of this was in response to you saying "the bible doesn't condone killing".

And finally, your god orders mass killings all over the bible and partakes of it himself over and over again. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND MY POINT?

But I suppose the god of the bible isn't Christian, is he?

Including eternal torture, what atrocities could a devil commit, to be any worse?

And you say the bible doesn't condone killing? No true Christian is a murderer? READ THE DAMN BIBLE. Pick up something and learn about the history of your own religion.

You are being lied to and you are lying to yourself. The bible cannot be the word, tales, or inspiration of any self respecting, omniscient god!

How could a god savor the smell of burnt carcass? (When they made those burnt offerings they thought god resided in heaven -- remember? -- just above the firmament.) Don't you get it?

THERE IS NO FREAK'N FIRMAMENT. God did NOTHING on the second day of creation! Get it?

It's 1st century folklore! Remember when I said "god's not stupid"? THINK ! If there is one, he could NOT be the god of the bible.

[Sorry, guess I got a little emotional.]

I don't know if your very grateful for your President trying to protect your country..
For
me to judge his faith, not up to me. But whether a Christian, Pope or
President kills someone, that is not an argument to say that Christ's
teachings are false or that God does not exist.

And finally, your god orders mass killings all over the bible and
partakes of it himself over and over again. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND MY POINT?

Yes, I understand your point- I explained that previous one in Numbers about the people rebelling against Him. I don't see how that has any relevance, especially if you don't believe in Him anyway? Saying,"that man is naughty" is no argument against his existance.
...

I don't know if your very grateful for your President trying to protect your country..
For
me to judge his faith, not up to me. But whether a Christian, Pope or
President kills someone, that is not an argument to say that Christ's
teachings are false or that God does not exist.

And finally, your god orders mass killings all over the bible and
partakes of it himself over and over again. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND MY POINT?

Yes, I understand your point- I explained that previous one in Numbers about the people rebelling against Him. I don't see how that has any relevance, especially if you don't believe in Him anyway? Saying,"that man is naughty" is no argument against his existance.

Including eternal torture, what atrocities could a devil commit, to be any worse?

Eternal torture is justice. Just like when a criminal breaks the law, they have to be punished. Just like we break God's law, we are punished.

Devil? Rebelling against the creator.

And you say the bible doesn't condone killing? No true Christian is a murderer?

No, I'm saying Christians aren't perfect, and by all means that Pope and the President could be Christians. But if they are truly followers of Christ they must understand that they are not doing what Jesus taught. Just like the laws of America say "Killing is prohibited" or whatever..just because an American murders someone does that mean their not American? No.

And is an American killing someone in war in the name of American freedom murder?

And anyway, since God doesn't exist and no morality really matters then I guess it doesn't matter who kills who in the end, aye?

Read the Bible. Try Jesus, not His followers.

I would much rather be known as a follower as Christ than a Christian. Why? because Christ's teachings are perfect, Christians following Jesus are not. Understand?