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Thomas Sowell says the same thing. That is not to say that those who were oppressed under slavery should have been grateful. The most economic freedom, the most liberty, greatest economic liberty, the most guaranteed inalienable rights, highest living standard. If you are not grateful to be an American, then you should leave. "Love it or leave it" is a logical fallacy. I did not say love it or leave it. So, yours is the fallacy. Mine was a suggestion of the obvious that if you are not happy where you are and not grateful to be where you are, then you should seek a place where you would be happy and grateful. Please do not lie about my remarks to try and make a point. If you are not grateful to be an American, then you should leave.I paraphrased. Sue me. You did not paraphrase. I said nothing of love. Gratitude is a wise thing for everyone in just about any circumstance. If you cannot be grateful that you live in America, then there is something seriously wrong with you and you need to go on a search for the place you can be grateful for. It is matter of bettering yourself and your outlook on life. Give me a freakin' break! What Pat Buchanan fails to mention is the extreme wealth of this country that was achieved by the forced labor of African-Americans. To make a statement that it has been a one-way street of economic benefit pushed to the black population is shameful. It is far more heroic to stay pat where you are and fight for your rights of equitable justice and liberty. willhelm, love it or leave it, take it or lump it, be happy or be gone, feel gratitude or feel for your passport: the sentiment is exactly the same. It is a fallacious argument because it presents only two options when there is a third, presented to us by Bobby: stay and agitate for change. What connection has Buchanan with Christianity? Does he believe that the Black are American? Most of them were there longer than most WASPS. His racism is blatantly obvious. So blame Obama for forcing America to confront its divisions? Why not the Zionist solution and now Kosovo. Turn a state or two over to the Blacks!!! A few more back to the Latinos!!! Some to the Native Indians! Then you could have states for the apartheid loving White racists! No? Of course not. Who could you hate then? So do I sound as bad as bad bad Buchanan? Not even close!? If you are not grateful to be an American, then you should leave.How are you going to be heroic if you are not grateful Bobby? What Willhelm said is an opinion. An opinion is not fallacious; it is what it is. What Bobby said about being heroic is an opinion also. All the people who came or fled to America for opportunity could have stayed home and been heroic. But Bobby would call them cowards I guess. So we brought you over here as slaves but we set you free with our Bibles that you weren't allowed to learn to read, and OMG we have been supporting black people ever since through those nasty social programs which monies could be better spent on the war effort for God's sake! Yes, where is your gratitude Black America! And all you White Trash folks too! Tell em Pat, those those ungrateful wenches! willhelm, love it or leave it, take it or lump it, be happy or be gone,First, dulios, I will not pretend that you know what you are talking about in the realm of reasoning and logic. Just understand the concept of gratitude does not imply loving. Gratitude is simply an expression that you know your lot is not as bas as it could be. If you harangue about how miserable this country is for blacks, then you are simpy a racist. I don't care if you are black or whi... Yes by all means ye brown masses, bow down to the ones you serve. Our ancestors enslaved your ancestors, show some gratitude The founding fathers created a country where "All Men are Created Equal" except for you A war was fought that cost a half a million lives and tore a country apart, the next day that was all forgotten You can clean up our yards, prepare our meals, watch our children, but eat our table? Forget it! We took your land by force, destroyed your culture and lives, but by God you got Casinos! Of course, the We here can be deceiving (although not always). Question is if these things, and their continuing aftermath are not confronted and dealt with, they will remain. This... We live in the real world folks. Willhelm is wrong to think that liberals err because they want to be loved. They err because they want to be moral and do right. but they too often refuse to acknowledge that the real world must be taken into consideration along with ones dreams of justice! To make a mockery of gratitude because of ones resentment and anger is to simply perpetuate the problems one thinks they want to solve! Willhelm is wrong to think that liberals err because they want to be loved.Where did I ever suggest that I beleive that, Yance. I think most Liberals are wrong because they are inspired by utopian impossiblilities, authoritarianism, hate, racism, ignorance, fascist statism, and the need for a parent-figure. I quite disagree with Prager. So, you are make making a false assumption that just because I clip something I have to agree with it. You are not talking to a fascist Progressive here. I actually think. You are right. I did think that Prager was representing your views. Sorry. I was going by my own behavior. I will not post material I strongly disagree with unless my comment makes clear that I am using it to start a critic from. I prefer to let ideas that I think bad do their own advertising.  Sorry. yanceducat, sticks a lot of words in peoples mouths. If you are going to apologize to willhelm then you owe me an apology also. Where did I call anyone a coward yance? Willhelm, arguing that calling his clip stupid meant calling him stupid said: Willhelm, arguing that you can't assume he agrees with what he clips said: That would propaganda, not opinion. See, JK? You just cannot help yourself but to lash out. Feeble. Wow! That comment goes back quite some time. You seem quite obsessed about your intellectual shortcomings to have to make notes of such obscurity and meld them into your usual propaganda. I get quite a kick out you. Where did I call anyone a coward yance?This is what I said. All the people who came or fled to America for opportunity could have stayed home and been heroic. But Bobby would call them cowards I guess. Sorry, JK. I forgot. You may require explanation since you are quite the lackey and cannot see outside your own box. Example: You can call my global warming clips propaganda if you want. I agree with many of them and say so in my comments. So, from your standpoint you would be fair not to distinguish the propaganda from the person passing it out on the streetcorner. On the other hand, you are referring to an opinion. An idea that is not expressed as fact, rather subjective bias. Therefore it is not propaganda and is not presented as such. It is for the purpose of creating dialogue, not enforcing a view. Now, with your ignorance that has become dogmatic in your refusal to seek ideas from s... Now your being a coward yance, I guess. By the way, I'd like to just say that I agree with dulios that Willhelm's argument that "love it or leave it" is a substantially different sentiment from saying "be grateful or leave it" is very unconvincing. I'll third jklugman's an dulios's statements. By the way, I'd like to just say that I agree with dulios thatI am unconvinced that you are unconvinced. Futhermore, I am unconvinced you have a clue what an argument is or that you can rationally discern a convincing one from a sound one if you happened upon one. I am unconvinced that you are commenting in good faith rather you are commenting in an offensive, misrepresenting, and dishonest way in order to convince others that you have reason to be unconvinced. I am also unconvinced that you actually could be convinced about any c... And I'm convinced that was just a huge load of hot air. "Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans." Pat Buchanan "Thirdly, no people anywhere has done more to lift up whites than black Americans." Think about it.... Kauaiguy Pat Buchanan violated a simple rule: somethings if you have to say them then they are not true. If you say "I'm humble", then your not. If you ask someone to be grateful, you don't deserve it. If you say "I'm humble", then your not.That I clearly understand. Now your being a coward yance, I guess.Context Bobby. Context! And just to be petty since well... anyway it is either "Now you are..." or "Now you're being a coward I guess." You and other people keep forgetting that. Thanks. Thirdly, no people anywhere has done more to lift up whites than black Americans."Actually no people anywhere has done more to lift up Whites than Whites ." Think about it.... If you ask someone to be grateful, you don't deserve it.Well that puts paid to all the mothers and fathers who ever found their child being more selfish than caring. I guess there is some rule that says when you do something for someone and they reward you by treating as if you are their servant, your only option is to suffer in silence!  Yes, we are expected to believe blacks have lifted up whites. Confounding! At the same time we are expected to believe that blacks need government assistance, affirmative action, politically correct manipulation, and quotas to lift themselves up. After all we have the resource rich continent of Africa as an example. Exploited, yes, but not by whites. Europeans and Americans have tried for decades to assist African Nations. The corruption and self-induced plight have made efforts practically futile. Yet, the UN and the West still serve as enablers of this sickness. If you ask someone to be grateful, you don't deserve it.How can you ask someone to be grateful. They eiht... Yance I think you missed my point. In fact you made it worse by talking about parental relationships. That just makes Buchanan words worse because they sound even more patronizing. Being grateful should be spontaneous, if you have to ask for thanks, you have to ask a) are you going to get it b) do you deserve it and c) did you do what you did so somebody would reward you with a thank you or did you do it because it was the right thing to do? After all we have the resource rich continent of Africa as an example. Exploited, yes, but not by whites. Europeans and Americans have tried for decades to assist African Nations. The corruption and self-induced plight have made efforts practically futile. Yet, the UN and the West still serve as enablers of this sickness.I guess I completly missed that chapter on European Empires and Africa. You know the British in Egypt, Kenya and South Africa, the French in Algeria and in the Central Republic of Congo. But then again... Don't forget the Belgians in the Belgian Free State... We already know, rat, from my last comment that the words you say are borne of ignorance, so there is no need in elucidating it further. Oh yeah, the Portuguese in the Congo, not to mention the slave trade. Oops I meant the Belgians in the Congo Free State Kind of confusing, with all the blood letting and exploitation.Willie, if you actually understood things like words, you know with meanings you would see that the entire article is dedicated to the idea that Blacks are an ungrateful bunch. I mean... First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks.Actually Germany has a good score there, post-war that is. But I guess they should not complain. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million,Ol, something complain about, you know with the slavery and everything... were introduced to Christian salvation,... c) did you do what you did so somebody would reward you with a thank you or did you do it because it was the right thing to do?Some time ago I came across 2 very large dogs running loose as I crossed a bridge and they were at full speed and drolling from their running. No ID. I got some rope from a mall and took them home I bought food for them, more rope so I could take them for walks, my cat stayed outside because of them, and the first night as they lay there and I got in bed I was aware that they could eat me alive if they decided to. I did it for the dogs and for myself because I don't like to see animals suffer. After 2 days the owner was found and came to get the do... First, you suggest it is poosible to request someone be grateful, even though no such request was ever made. If you ask someone to be grateful, you don't deserve it.Then floowing my brilliant commet. You make more utter non-sense. Being grateful should be spontaneous, if you have to ask for thanks,Once again, you highlight how utterly ignorant you are. It is beyond baffling. So, I repeat: [i]How can you ask someone to be grateful. They either are or they are not. ... Well if you did for the right reasons, it should not even be a problem. Yes she was wrong...but you did the right thing, that is its own reward. Man I copy and pasted the wrong thing...oh well. It's ok. It makes about as much sense as anything else you post. Here again Buchanan is being racist and trying to divide by making comments that are intended to be inflammatory in nature by suggesting that Black folks are a drain on society for all the money America has spent trying to lift them into "mainstream" culture. Dulios, this is a great clip that points out the hate and racism that Buchanan uses to see his own personal agenda furthered. Don't let others who have that agenda ever make you lose sight of that by twisting words and meanings and trying to divide even further. @debyski Did you read the entire Buchanan piece? Condolezza Rice (just today) "Black Americans were a founding population," she said. "Africans and Europeans came here and founded this country together — Europeans by choice and Africans in chains. That's not a very pretty reality of our founding."
Oh, and, willhelm You can always comment on my clips. Badge of honor buddy! @Yance, Yeah, I did. Thank you, BR. Glad to know you hold such value in reason. LOL. Especially now that you are such a convert to the gospel of Condeleeza Rice. Not that I am but it seems there are plenty in the conservative wing who see her as a Vice Presidential candidate. Polishing my medal. there are plenty in the conservative wing who see her as a Vice Presidential candidate.That's a scary thought Bobby. Yeah, having a VP who had to rely on White America to lift her up to her full potential. That's a scary thought Bobby.An insane thought would be my first reaction. I think McCain wants someone youthful and someone that could pull in votes from the south. Yeah, I did.Debbyski why do you think he's racist from that? I have seen him for many years and whether one agrees with him or not I think he is completely sincere in what he says. I remember back when Bosnia was on the news, he was adamantly against intervention and I was for it. I heard him on the radio nearly every day I think. He was opposed to my view but he was always reasonable and rational in his presentation It turns out that he was more right if not completely right than I knew. I have found out since that deliberate lies were told designed to inflame the public in favor of attacking Serbia. I still don't know the whole truth about that event but it was not as c... I will not pretend that you know what you are talking about in the realm of reasoning and logic.Oh, willhelm, you are so precious! You congratulate yourself on your critical thinking skills, yet post after post you endlessly engage in ad hominem attacks, appeals to authority, false analogies, and distractions, just to name a few. It was lazy of me to use the words "love it or leave it", but the logical fallacy you committed was not in the choice of words (love vs. gratitude) but in the contention that there are only two options, when a third exists. That's a fallacy of distraction called a false dilemma. I could teach a class on critical thinking with your writings as a negative example. I am the only one on this entire thread that has kept to the point, being gratitude. You know, ad hominem is one of the simplest and most recognizable fallacies there is, but it amazes me how few people actually know what it is. They just toss it out as if they have a clue. If you are not grateful to be an American, then you should leave.So Willhelm says this and it is made into a crime. Why? Well apparently he should have added, "but of course if you are not grateful to be an American, why don't you stick around and work on changing this country into something I might find .very bad." Now that is what Willhelm should have said. Instead in this land of freedom he gave only his opinion and thus was unjustly depriving all and sundry their full thought possibilities! I fully understand your comment and please know that I am fully capable of expressing myself. The reason I did not say what you suggest is because, why would someone care to improve a Nation they are not grateful for. What improvement might there be that would entail them to not have the motivation out of gratitude for a Nation where they CAN make a change? In how many nations is that possible? So your comment is negated by the lack of gratitude as nothing comes from a lack of gratitude but blame, self-delusion, and hatred. See? Your comment confuses the issue for purposes of not offending or minimizing the disgusting soul that cannot express due gratitude. Mine is just a factual and objective observation based on sound reason. Yance...Old Willie had a long history here. Lets just say that when he gets into one of his tirades, nobody is safe. And then he plays the victim. He sounds smart...but once you scrape off the makeup... You congratulate yourself on your critical thinking skills, yet post after post you endlessly engage in ad hominem attacks, appeals to authority, false analogies, and distractions, just to name a few.Now you are wising up. He is truly a master at it eh? @ Yance, I probably don't agree with much of anything that Buckhanan says. Buchanan thinks black people should be grateful. Willhelm thinks everyone should be grateful. What is so wrong with that? There are things I want to change in the USA but I would not consider living anywhere else. I don't see buchanan and willhelm saying they should be grateful for bad things, just that they should be grateful they are healthy, in a safe country with a good standard of living compared to the rest of the world, that they have right to be politically active. Goodness, you could even be grateful for good a entertainment Industry. I understand there are problems. I would like to know how many of those that say black people should not be grateful believe B. Obama would agree with... I am starting to feel like CM is full of ppl who agree with Willhelm that just joined at 9:43 p.m. today. There's no way ljgriffin is willhelm. ljgriffin's comment lacks the requisite amount of pompousness and snideness that willhelm can't help but interject in his comments. Good point JK! I don't even have to look. And why can't Pat Buchanan express gratitude for blacks building this nation under slavery? Did I really say that in under 15 words? And why can't you express gratitude for the Southerners who had the wisdom to bring the Blacks here and to train them and guide them to do the best things to help build this great nation? @willhelm The most economic freedom, the most liberty, greatest economic liberty, the most guaranteed inalienable rights, highest living standard. If you are not grateful to be an American, then you should leave.Grateful: 1 a: appreciative of benefits received b: expressing gratitude <grateful thanks>2 a: affording pleasure or contentment : pleasing b: pleasing by reason of comfort supplied or discomfort alleviated "America" has never freely given liberty, rights or freedom and to say that one should be grateful is to prop up the fiction that "America" is a benevolent entity. Any "discomfort alleviated," has historically been achieved (or not) through rebelling against an ... @ljgriffin ... if it is true black people are not grateful to be Americans. If that is the case I will have to change who I am supporting for president.If that's how you feel, then by all means, please support a different candidate. And why can't you express gratitude for the Southerners who had the wisdom to bring the Blacks here and to train them and guide them to do the best things to help build this great nation?I'll assume that this is Yance attempt at sarcasm. Why must it be sarcasm. Could it be true? For example, I think the CIA is an evil organization. Yet I as an American citizen benefit from it's efforts even as I condemn it. And I do condemn it. And I'm grateful for it. Another example. I don't like advertising on my TV. Yet I know that if there was no advertising there would be no TV shows for me to watch. So I both do not like the advertising and I am grateful for the advertisers. yance, not everything point can be put on equivalent levels. Even if you were using sarcasm your statement was pretty crass. But it does explain how your thinking works that allows you to be a Hillary supporter who will vote for the republicans in November. The party that smeared her for over 20 years because Obama is so evil. Chicken and egg questions. Are you an American first and human second? Most of us have no difficulty with this. Then god and country. Which comes first? Easy if you are not encumbered with a god, but if god is your thing, does it/he/she come first? Who sired all those ungrateful unequal Blacks? I'm not expecting any answers soon. You know, come to think of it Righty...according to Patty boy, the Irish should also be thankful to the British. I mean, you know the Potato famine and the Tan & Browns, the Troubles up North, Bloody Sunday...you should get on the earliest ferry, walk yourself from Wales to London and over to 10 Downing street and give Brownie a hug! Show him how much you care! My statement was pretty crass. Yes, it's wrong to hurt peoples feelings isn't? Well yes and no. It depends actually. I have to laugh. People feel great about bashing Whites, because it's just so cool to do, and then they imagine this will magically cause the people who have the power they don't like, to give them what they want. It apparently never occurred to anyone that maybe "Patty boy", who it's legal to be crass to, if not just outright fun to be crass about, might be less on about being racist and more on about being tired of being bashed for the last 45 years? I sure know I am.(OK go snicker snicker look at the White male of privilege whining.Whites don't have feelings) So keep on... Oh yancey, boo hoo! Did you get your panties in a wad Don't feel victimized yance. Feel grateful.Yes, LOL You know I was rereading the Buchanan article and at the end he says "all hoaxes" but he includes the Jena case. Well I was still a true believer liberal when I came across the Jena case in CounterPunch and so I knew that wasn't a hoax. I read all the details right there in my trusty CounterPunch and then national news got on the case and confirmed the story. Well you know the rest .I rechecked and Buchanan is right. It was a hoax. Oh well, if the cause is right, the truth doesn't matter. Is that true Bobby? Funny thing is that I was criticizing Buchanan, who is of Irish decent, not blasting millions of Americans, I hope you can see the irony in my words (as well as the difference), because righthand is Irish and one thing he and Buchanan would agree on is that they should NOT be grateful to the English for how well they where treated over the centuries. As for what happened in Jena, what part of it was a hoax? Thats something I (and a lot of other people) would like to know. I know all that about righthand and Buchanan being Irish but irony or not, you were directly affirming and suggesting the idea of relishing resentment. Not that I was thinking of it at the time, but I'm not aware of any argument that the Irish might have directly gained from the English transporting them from one place to another with more oportunities. While no one can argue that slavery is good no one can argue either that many Blacks have not gained opportunities that would never have been available but for slavery, both in the US and via England. And would you care to speculate what Africa would be like today if European Whites had boycotted the continent entirely? Maybe not the ... I'm looking for help here. Recently I read about indentured servants, I think. It was the new ploy to replace the Black slaves. The major saving was in running expenses. With the slaves you had to feed and house them unlike the indentured servants. Morally when you didn't want them you could dump them at no cost. It was a lot like the modern trafficking in humans that you get so upset about when it's those poor Africans, Asians, or Arabs. When it was WASPS trading in White Irish it didn't seem to count or has it been wiped from the collective memory. So when did you stop beating the wife? We did have indentured servants. Been a long time since I was in school though, so offhand we would stop beating the wife after they did about 7 years is what I recall. But this memory is more confined to very early America. By the way, I didn't really read it but BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7316130.stm a story about Indian men protesting being treated like slaves marching on Washington. The issue is about gratitude, social control, and identity politics. Heaven forbid the world have black people grateful to be Americans, forThis is not about the actual opinions of black people. Most blacks, by far, are grateful to be Americans. This is about the Progressive's view of blacks and their subjective attitudes toward ... Na, it's simple really. Are all men created equal or not. If yes then Black or White doesn't matter. It's just skin pigment variation but equal Americans. If not then I suppose the Black should be grateful for the scraps they've gotten from the master's table like being able to vote and die in the military. If you believed you were a Christian and held to the view of the scraps, then I'd say your so called religion may be biblical but has little got to do with Jesus Christ! So it's simple really. Equal or not? Like pregnancy really! By that logic (pregnant or not) not equal obviously. Not all Whites are equal with all Whites. etc. Furthermore, there are masters. Whether that is PC or not, it is reality. If scraps are all that you can get, then be grateful for them. Jesus was not some 'nice' guy.He was in favor of people going to hell and had no problem with unequal wages! I suppose women should not be grateful to be Americans? How about Latinos? How about homosexuals?Very good point! Is that you debbyski in the middle there tapping your foot? Yance, all my points are good points. Many are exceptional. I do not gauge the exceptional nature of my comments by the ability of clipmarks users to comprehend them. Thanks anyway. I understand. Thanks. Not all Whites are equal with all Whites. etc.I suppose it's how you look at it or where is your starting point. Like your point about unequal wages. I thought that was about using your god given talents. Maybe it's different religion now. You must start with the concept of equality. Where else, if you live in a democracy. What evolves from that starting point will be up the the individual, if it is a democracy. I repeat that as I wonder if it is. In theory the highest office is open to any citizen, born in the States (unless your name is McCain) and you are over 35 is it? That it? And the $1 billion, but getting cheaper by the day. Other positions sell for less. All ve... I thought that was about using your god given talents. Maybe it's different religion now.Ok, my mind doesn't work that way. I prefer to say things as accurately as I can. The last part of the parable 9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
I for example would make a point of NOT putting people deliberately in a situation where their sense of unfairness would be arroused. And he not only hired them the way he did he deliberately had the last paid first as if to rub the fact that they did less work but got the same amount of pay as those who worked longer. What do you think of this? Then floowing my brilliant commet.I'm guessing you meant "following my brilliant comment." Yance, all my points are good points. Many are exceptional. I do not gauge the exceptional nature of my comments by the ability of clipmarks users to comprehend them.  My, aren't we impressed with ourselves? — Comment removed by clipper — |
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