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Oh my gosh. It just keeps getting worse. My Bible, that most *Christian pastors* use, talks about redemption, love, reconciliation, forgiveness, peace, obedience, the cross, Godly living, etc.... Somebody changed the words and meaning to come up with their "social gospel" and "liberation theology". I'm reminded of Paul's words: "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!" You know, it would be worth reading the document. I did and it was illuminating, but of course nothing like this gets through the AIPAC approved MSM missives, so.... Ho hum. Whatever became of Rev. John Hagee - who openly advocates war on Iran and backs McCain and speaks with Bush? This is nothing; people don't go to a church because they buy its pastors' political views. Believe me, I've been a pastor for two decades, and I would never assume people of my church agree with me on foreign policy or politics. And the Palestinian cause is vastly under-represented in the USA; Israel kills 100 for every 1 Palestinian rockets manage to hit. Israel is in violation of 49 UN sanctions. Israel drops cluster bombs in civilian areas. Israel has so blockaded Gaza that people die in hospital for lack of blood or medication. Israel is gradually killing off the Pa... First, McCain does not attend Hagee's church nor necessarily subscribes to his theology, which points to the broad appeal of Mcain. Second, Hagee does not express racism and anti-Americanism. Third, Hagees theology does not state that destruction of white people by God is a necessary component of the requirement for their faith. Fourth, Bringing up Hagee in this context displays a profound and utter hatred that is shown in your willingness to illogically equate these two cases. It is highly disturbing. Fifth, Hagee is not a father figure to McCain. Sixth, McCain does not defend nor necessarily support Hagee's views. Seven, it does not help the human nature of racism to defend racism when it suits your needs. Hagee: "All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are -- were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other Gay Pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing. I know that there are people who demur from that, but I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the ... This is nothing; people don't go to a church because they buy its pastors' political views. Believe me, I've been a pastor for two decades, and I would never assume people of my church agree with me on foreign policy or politics.Do you preach foreign policy and politics? Do you believe that those who listen to you regularly mostly agree with what you preach about? Do you think most people attend a church for two decades while not agreeing with much of what the preacher has to say while on the pulpit? I would agree with you if Wright held these views but only voiced them as a private citizen and not a church leader. But he is out there preaching this stuff, and from all the ... Black Liberation Theology is entirely political at it's core. It is a matter of the faith. It is reasonable to assume that if you attend the church of a racist preacher of black liberation theology, then you are a racist adherent of black liberation theology. It is in fact a requirement that to become a member of a church you must suscribe to the beliefs and theology of that particular church. In some cases one might even be required to sign an acknowledgement. This is Willhelm's logic: Barack Obama knows a guy, Jeremiah Wright, who was inspired by a theologian named James Hal Cone, who said some nasty stuff about God being against white people. Thus, Jeremiah Wright is a racist, and so is Barack Obama. Forgive me if I find that unpersuasive. Cone said that Wright's church is the one church out of millions in the nation that most closely follows his teachings. And you continue to ignore the many statements that Wright has made which are blatantly racist and the about page at the church which is still up and still racist. Forgive me if I find that unpersuasive.Well that pretty much says it all. Would you call someone a Christian if they attended a Christian Church for 20 plus years or would you be unpersuaded? Would you call someone a racist if they were a member of the Ku Klux Klan for 20 years or would you be unpersuaded? Probably the closest thing I heard Wright saying that could be described as racism is that America is run by rich white guys. I don't like the phrasing, but at its heart, I think he's expressing a valid complaint about racial and class inequality in the US, inequalities which working-class and lower-class African-Americans find themselves on the wrong end. And that argument about Trinity church's "About" page is astoundingly weak. If you think they're racist, then you would have to think that Jews who take that chosenness stuff seriously (all 2 of them) are racist as well. Wonderful! We are going to have 7 months to analyze why Barrack Obama attends a church with a racist preacher that applies a racist black liberation theology. Such irony. I'm sure we will be welcomed by more irrelevant education on Hagee in the process, or racist Jews. That in itself is quite enlightening. The Ku Klux Klan can be boiled down to a racist movement. Thomas Jefferson was a slave-owner who raped his slaves, but the Declaration of Independence can't be boiled down to a racist document. The Southern Baptist denomination was founded by slavery advocates, but it can't be boiled down to a racist religion. There is some extremely chauvinistic elements in the scripture of Judaism, but it can't be boiled down to a racist religion. (I'm pretty sure that there's chauvinistic stuff in Christianity, too, and the same applies to it) James Hal Cone wrote some ugly stuff about God being against white people and he was one of the major founders of Black Theology, but Black Theology and its c... I'm sure we will be welcomed by more irrelevant education on Hagee in the process, or racist Jews. That in itself is quite enlightening.I guess that was easier to write than coming up with some tortured explanation about why its OK to say that NO deserved Hurricane Katrina but its not OK to say that the US's actions resulted in 9/11. Or a tortured explanation for why its OK for Jews to say they are the chosen people, but its bad for blacks to say they are the chosen people. Your last two comments are so quintessentially jklugman. Thanks for running us down a wormhole of inanity. Haggee is a racist. Jefferson raped his slaves. Black people are the chosen people. Southern Baptists were racists. But Black Theology is not racist when it supports the annihilation of white people and the supremacy of Blacks. You are so utterly incoherent it is staggering. Still waiting for those tortured explanations... The only explanation is that they are both stupid statements, but they are not both racist. It is also apparent that you by necessity must support both since you cannot logically defend one while arguing the other wrong. It is also apparent that the Left is utterly foolish in their attempt to defend a racist by equating his words with someone else with whom they disagree. Obama is a racist and this is becoming very clear. Witness your defense. The only explanation is that they are both stupid statements, but they are not both racist. It is also apparent that you by necessity must support both since you cannot logically defend one while arguing the other wrong.Wrong. I wasn't defending either statement. I was questioning your argument that Hagee is better than Wright. Since you have retreated to guilt-by-association logic, I don't think your argument is tenable. I was questioning your argument that Hagee is better than Wright.That was not my argument. The inverse was yours and that is what is so inane. Haggee has nothing whatsoever to do with racist theology. Obama and Wright are members of and work within a blatantly racist theology. You can disagree that that is not "tenable" all you want but to to do so is to ignore the facts and instead call Jefferson a rapist and throw Hagee into the mix. Since you have retreated to guilt-by-association logic, I don't think your argument is tenable.To argue that a member of the Ku Klux Klan is racist based solely on association is perfectly valid. It is also valid to supp... That was not my argument. The inverse was yours and that is what is so inane.Could have fooled me...I don't see how one can interpret the fifth comment authored by you as anything but a claim that Wright is worse than Hagee. To argue that a member of the Ku Klux Klan is racist based solely on association is perfectly valid.One nasty paragraph by James Hal Cone does not make Black Theology, the Trinity United Church of Christ, Jeremiah Wright, or Barack Obama equivalent to the KKK. In these heated political times, it is easy for you and me to find the worst things that are associated with a movement/religion/ideology. It is less easy for us to give a complete picture of them however. Could have fooled me...I don't see how one can interpret the fifthThat is because you are not very clear-minded. It was a comment about the fact that one has nothing to do with the other. One nasty paragraph by James Hal Cone does not make Black Theology, theThere is more than one comment by James Cone. There is the entire body of black theology and the hatred provoked through that theology. Also, I did not say they were equivalent. I said they are both racist. Not all racists are equival... I see no evidence of you making any more effort to research "the entire body of black theology" than using James Cone...er, "James Cohn" quotations cherry-picked for you by Glenn Beck. That is not sufficient for you to prove that BT, Jeremiah Wright, and Barack Obama are racist and evil. Does it matter if Hagee is better or worse that Wright? The relationship between Hagee and McCain is nowhere near equal to that between Wright and Obama. And if it were, all those saying the Wright/Obama relationship is meaningless would have been all over McCain the same way they were when Bush merely spoke at Bob Jones University. Imagine if he had attended church services there for two decades. I see no evidence of you making any more effort to research "the entireThat is laughable, JK. Talk about cherry-picking. I guess I am to assume by your comment that all your clips are the sum total of your knowledge, expertise, and wisdom. OK. I never asked you to look for the evidence in my clips. My clips are a mix of bias and objectivity. We cannot all be as perfect as you and clip nothing but unbiased clips. It's not clear to me that McCain ought to be given a pass for pandering to Hagee, and that Bush ought to be given a pass for pandering to BJU, while Obama ought to dismissed out of hand for not leaving his church of 15 years when his pastor said some stupid shit (presumably he had been a member of TUCC for ~15 years when Wright made the comments about 9/11). Willhelm, it is entirely plausible to me that BT is 99.9% concerned with black pride, the social gospel, traditional Christianity, etc, and that .1% of it is "accept-only-the-love-of-God-which-participates-in-the-destruction-of-the-white-enemy." I don't think the 99.9% part is any more deplorable than religion or ethnic pride is in general. The .1% is unfortunate and condemnable, but it does not justify saying that Wright and Obama are racists and/or evil. Finally you make a valid and clear statement. I have one question... Where do you get the mathematical formula the breaks-down the percentages of ideological and theological devotion? I would like to look at that. Also, as you are probably aware from past discussions I do not sugar-coat the Confederacy breaking away from the Union on the grounds of State's rights. It was clearly for the purpose of slavery. Revisionists have brushed the uncomfortable facts under the table like they have done in many areas. My point is that there are foundational motivations for a belief system. For the South it was racist materialism. The foundational belief for Black Theology is Afro-centric. It is not a ... Finally you make a valid and clear statement.Though it is based on a subjective bias and "plausibility". All I am saying is that all of the evidence you have presented here is consistent with a 99.9/.1 breakdown. I'm not saying it is 99.9/.1. I'm saying the onus is on YOU to prove that its substantial enough to prove guilt by association by two degrees: Obama-Wright-Cone or Obama-Wright-BT. The foundational belief for Black Theology is Afro-centric. It is not a belief system that works for the common good. It works for the exclusive good of blacks and preaches black superiority.I have seen little evidence that it promotes black supremacism. As for working for the exclusive good of blacks, being parochial is hardly unique to BT and is no crime in and of itself (after all, ... after all, you could say the civil rights movement worked for the exclusive good of blacks).I wouldn't say that. I couldn't say that. Perhaps you could- I could not. The civil rights movements worked for the good of America and racial harmony and many white people were part of that movement. I find that suggestion offensive. It also directly relates to this comment: I have seen little evidence that it promotes black supremacism.You see what you want to see. Pop for the comments. |
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