I don't think you understand the scale at which the universe exists.

If because of scale you surmise a god must have created the universe, how small must that god be to not require a creator of itself?

The intricate design of the smallest flower, to the ecosystem of ants, to the largest mountains.

Given the Natural Laws of Nature, in what way would the universe be any different...if there was no god?

And given the immensity of the universe, the very scale of which you speak, why wouldn't small probabilities be in abundance?

If an event is found one in 10 billion, given the efficacy of the universe, there'd be millions of them! And because of that....

I don't think you understand the scale at which the universe exists.

If because of scale you surmise a god must have created the universe, how small must that god be to not require a creator of itself?

The intricate design of the smallest flower, to the ecosystem of ants, to the largest mountains.

Given the Natural Laws of Nature, in what way would the universe be any different...if there was no god?

And given the immensity of the universe, the very scale of which you speak, why wouldn't small probabilities be in abundance?

If an event is found one in 10 billion, given the efficacy of the universe, there'd be millions of them! And because of that...

I don't think you understand the scale at which the universe exists.

And I think when you talk about intricate "design", you've already tricked yourself by embedding the conclusion inside the question. (Gotta be careful about stuff like that.)

"because of the small details in the world and universe, atoms and chemicals cant make something like what we have today."

Are we made of something OTHER than atoms and chemicals today? You statement contradicts itself.

"Especially since those atoms and chemicals can't have come from nothing."

Exactly! Something can't come from nothing. How, then, did your creator come from nothing?

There was a beginning. And that beginning was God. He has always existed.

I don't agree, but I'll accept your argument. So that by whatever method you reason that "that beginning was God, and has always existed".. allow me to use your reasoning method...

"because of the small details in the world and universe, atoms and chemicals cant make something like what we have today."

Are we made of something OTHER than atoms and chemicals today? You statement contradicts itself.

"Especially since those atoms and chemicals can't have come from nothing."

Exactly! Something can't come from nothing. How, then, did your creator come from nothing?

There was a beginning. And that beginning was God. He has always existed.

I don't agree, but I'll accept your argument. So that by whatever method you reason that "that beginning was God, and has always existed".. allow me to use your reasoning method to assert (as you do) that:

In the beginning, was the matter/energy "stuff" of the universe, and it has ALWAYS existed.

He isn't bound by time and the laws of our universe.

Then why did it take him "time" to created it? And why would he have to "rest"? It is clear that you are simply trying to "define" a god in a way that answers the contradictions to your logic. Why don't you simply define him as being above the truth, because nothing you have said can be demonstrated as such. You made it all up (or got it from someone who did).

"I used the word 'design' because I see no other evidence for the cause of the universe apart from that which points to God."

Let's suppose that we found a compelling cause. Wouldn't you simply say that god caused that "it"?

You see, you've started with a conclusion...and you try to make everything else conform to that conclusion.

Think about what you're saying: Intelligence (or life) REQUIRES a creator, but the intelligence (or life) of something as significant as a god DOESN'T?

Can you see the obvious logical contradiction? (Your god would have to be neither intelligent nor alive, for your reasoning to be valid.) Either life requires a creator or it doesn't.

Are we made of something OTHER than atoms and chemicals today? You statement contradicts itself.

My argument is that atoms and chemicals cannot have the intellect or divine capacity to a) Exist eternally. b) Create such a detailed universe. c) Create the human race with morals, consciences and souls.

I recommend you read C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity". I know you are quite repelled by the faith but please read this book before you die as he explains these issues much better than I do.

Exactly! Something can't come from nothing. How, then, did your creator come from nothing?

Great point. This is where my argument comes in that God isn't bound by time. I'...

Are we made of something OTHER than atoms and chemicals today? You statement contradicts itself.

My argument is that atoms and chemicals cannot have the intellect or divine capacity to a) Exist eternally. b) Create such a detailed universe. c) Create the human race with morals, consciences and souls.

I recommend you read C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity". I know you are quite repelled by the faith but please read this book before you die as he explains these issues much better than I do.

Exactly! Something can't come from nothing. How, then, did your creator come from nothing?

Great point. This is where my argument comes in that God isn't bound by time. I'll be honest that for me as a Christian its hard to grasp the concept of eternity since we are bound by time every day. But as I've grown as a Christian and read the bible and seen God work through my friends and families lives I've began to understand the sheer authority and sovereignty of God. This fits logically into my argument as God exists eternally. He has always existed and always will exist. But I understand your argument that its hard for us to believe that because we are bound by time.

I don't see how matter and enery can have created itself. But I can see how God exists eternally.

I appreciate you talking to me about these things as I'm sure you would agree that they are extremely important issues. Plainly, because if I'm right and God is the eternal creator and Jesus is His Son, then you need to repent and trust Him with your life for eternal salvation. And if your right then I accept that I have wasted my life on a lie. (Although I can't see that happening as it is hard for me to deny the reality of the Holy Spirit working in my life and changing my friends and family every day, the beauty of creation and the precious gift of grace that Jesus presented on the Cross).

Then why did it take him "time" to created it? And why would he have to
"rest"? It is clear that you are simply trying to "define" a god in a
way that answers the contradictions to your logic. Why don't you simply
define him as being above the truth, because nothing you have said can
be demonstrated as such. You made it all up (or got it from someone who
did).

Another
great question. God created time (Divided light from darkness in
Genesis 1:4 and 14). I think time in itself is a wonderful creation. How else would we know when to go to work and how long we should put something on to cook? Its one of the fundemental laws of nature that we take for granted. I'm sure God didn't n...

Then why did it take him "time" to created it? And why would he have to
"rest"? It is clear that you are simply trying to "define" a god in a
way that answers the contradictions to your logic. Why don't you simply
define him as being above the truth, because nothing you have said can
be demonstrated as such. You made it all up (or got it from someone who
did).

Another
great question. God created time (Divided light from darkness in
Genesis 1:4 and 14). I think time in itself is a wonderful creation. How else would we know when to go to work and how long we should put something on to cook? Its one of the fundemental laws of nature that we take for granted. I'm sure God didn't need to rest. I think making us in his image and giving us the body that needs to rest and sleep helps us to slow down and recognise the beauty in creation, bot going at full pace all the time and getting stressed out. (As we know is increasingly bad for our bodies).

God is not above the truth, He is the truth. He created logic and reason, of course its going to match up with His creation.

I haven't made all this up. Firstly, what would be my intentions in committing my life to a lie. Secondly, I am not gaining money, fame or fortune by discussing this with you. Lastly, all the Christians that have lived are not that stupid as to faithfully believe something that has no logical or reasonable evidence.

"My argument is that atoms and chemicals cannot have the intellect or divine capacity to..."

Intellect? Divine capacity? Remember when I cautioned you about the fallacy of embedding your conclusion into your question? Did it again!

You're tricking yourself.

Are you familiar with the term "Anthropomorphism?" You're doing that, too!

"This is where my argument comes in that God isn't bound by time."

This doesn't explain how something (god) came from nothing. Nor does it explain how a god can be super intelligent in the absence of there being anything to be intelligent about!

"I don't see how matter and enery can have created...

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"My argument is that atoms and chemicals cannot have the intellect or divine capacity to..."

Intellect? Divine capacity? Remember when I cautioned you about the fallacy of embedding your conclusion into your question? Did it again!

You're tricking yourself.

Are you familiar with the term "Anthropomorphism?" You're doing that, too!

"This is where my argument comes in that God isn't bound by time."

This doesn't explain how something (god) came from nothing. Nor does it explain how a god can be super intelligent in the absence of there being anything to be intelligent about!

"I don't see how matter and enery can have created itself. But I can see how God exists eternally."

We agreed that something can't come from nothing. How, then, can you see how god exists eternally without seeing how matter can exist eternally?

"..the beauty of creation and the precious gift of grace that Jesus presented on the Cross.."

My I show you where all that comes from? Here, take a historical look: Zeitgeist Part 1 (26 min).

You said it was important. I agree. Take a look. It's the literal root of Christianity. And then think about it.