Good manners are also part of adapting to social networks I think. It makes fitting in more a gentle, convenient proces on both sides. Nowadays, with most socially dependent structures having felt apart, we are less confronted with the need of social manners. We spent most of our daily time as a individual and it's merely because of online communities that young people need to learn to adapt to large social networks, at some level that is. Not the same as in real life. But it's a good thing. On the other hand, the increasing speed of technology and 24/7 'reachability' gives reason to question our capabilty to adapt this quick to changes. I feel like we are always way behind the tech developm...

Good manners are also part of adapting to social networks I think. It makes fitting in more a gentle, convenient proces on both sides. Nowadays, with most socially dependent structures having felt apart, we are less confronted with the need of social manners. We spent most of our daily time as a individual and it's merely because of online communities that young people need to learn to adapt to large social networks, at some level that is. Not the same as in real life. But it's a good thing. On the other hand, the increasing speed of technology and 24/7 'reachability' gives reason to question our capabilty to adapt this quick to changes. I feel like we are always way behind the tech development with our social skills. And that this is why we always search for new, better, faster ways to communicate. We simply couldn't keep up with the last one. But What do you think?

I'm not that old either, but the Golden Rule will hopefully never go out of fashion. .

What do I think? Well... my Dad always told me, "you'll attract more flies with honey, than you will with vinegar." When people are rude or impolite, the one on the receiving end will tend to go into defensive mode. If one wishes to communicate[/], that is, have the other person actually [i]listen to what you're saying, being rude will NOT accomplish your goals.

My Dad, (bless his soul, he always had so many wise things to say), also said; "Always try to walk in the other person's shoes." Even if it was just a little snail on a sidewalk, he'd say to me; "What would it be like to be that snail?...

I'm not that old either, but the Golden Rule will hopefully never go out of fashion. .

What do I think? Well... my Dad always told me, "you'll attract more flies with honey, than you will with vinegar." When people are rude or impolite, the one on the receiving end will tend to go into defensive mode. If one wishes to communicate[/], that is, have the other person actually [i]listen to what you're saying, being rude will NOT accomplish your goals.

My Dad, (bless his soul, he always had so many wise things to say), also said; "Always try to walk in the other person's shoes." Even if it was just a little snail on a sidewalk, he'd say to me; "What would it be like to be that snail? How would it feel? If it were you, would you like to be stepped on? Treat it as you would like to be treated.".

"Do unto others". So that's what I try to do. I don't want to be stepped on either.

Your father had some pretty wise things to say. It's nice to carry such good souvenirs on the way. They're like jewelry on the soul, clearly visible to others. Well, seems your father did a good job. And you too

I always remember him saying that you have to think for yourself, find the truth yourself and never let anyone but yourself decide what's best for you. Be gentle and galant like an aristocrate, but don't ever think yourself to be better than others, or to good to do dirty jobs. Work your ass of to provide yourself and the ones you took responsibilty for. Learn, grow, question. Always.

*sigh* Oh yes, temper. I'm proud to have inhereted a fair bit of his. It's fun, and it's a go...

Your father had some pretty wise things to say. It's nice to carry such good souvenirs on the way. They're like jewelry on the soul, clearly visible to others. Well, seems your father did a good job. And you too

I always remember him saying that you have to think for yourself, find the truth yourself and never let anyone but yourself decide what's best for you. Be gentle and galant like an aristocrate, but don't ever think yourself to be better than others, or to good to do dirty jobs. Work your ass of to provide yourself and the ones you took responsibilty for. Learn, grow, question. Always.

*sigh* Oh yes, temper. I'm proud to have inhereted a fair bit of his. It's fun, and it's a good thing to have. I cannot stand injustice. Or dishonesty. I cannot argue without getting excited over the things I think that really matter in life. But I never get rude. I will defend my ground but not at cost of another persons point of view. If it happens it indeed feels like stepping on a snail. Then I feel really dirty. No fun.

But now I wonder, what's your favourite sin?

From cell phones to good ideas to good manners, to wrath and the color of beer, and back to cell phones...

Where to jump in this skipping rope?

Well...here's how I think (and act)

#1. Respect

Not an original idea but perhaps interesting to note it was Strongly Emphasized by an 'Old School," real-thing Japanese karate teacher I had...99% of the training has the goal of getting out of danger...so you can get out of danger simply by avoiding trouble...being alert to danger...walking away from dangers...and if backed into a corner, blocking attacks and retaliating to dis-able an assailant....and Respect.

If you respect all people in your dealings with them not only do you live with no hate ...

From cell phones to good ideas to good manners, to wrath and the color of beer, and back to cell phones...

Where to jump in this skipping rope?

Well...here's how I think (and act)

#1. Respect

Not an original idea but perhaps interesting to note it was Strongly Emphasized by an 'Old School," real-thing Japanese karate teacher I had...99% of the training has the goal of getting out of danger...so you can get out of danger simply by avoiding trouble...being alert to danger...walking away from dangers...and if backed into a corner, blocking attacks and retaliating to dis-able an assailant....and Respect.

If you respect all people in your dealings with them not only do you live with no hate in your heart but there's less chance of trouble brewing up.

(The 'fight back,' part of the equation is that if someone is attacking you - they have no respect for you - and if they have no respect for you then they lose the privilege of being respected.)

(thus...being respectful also does allow for appropriate wrath)

That's the zen line of thinking. I have found it works very well. Teacher said it was the law of Physics, too: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

# 2. You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. A smile gets more done than a frown. All the world loves a lover, etc. -- 4sure.

#1 & #2 also lead to dressing well when going out. Dressing up a notch tends to have people look at your better; dressing like a slob has people more prone to treating you like a slob.

Cell phones? Amazing fabulous and useful things but also amazingly annoying at times...really a big change in society; people now walk around being in two places at once.

Sometimes very rude to break off a conversation with someone you're with and then in front of their face go on and on talking with someone else on the phone.

I've now 'evolved,' to making and using a shortcut key to get to Change Mode and can quickly get into a Silent Profile/vibrating.

+/-?

@michellezm @ tanyamm: I partly agree, as there maybe some confusion about the meaning of the word 'beauty', or 'esthetics'. In the ideal situation, esthetics and ethics would probably lead to the same thing: harmony. But on the other hand, I find many artists struggling with the idea of what's good or bad, as well as thinkers. In many occassions it led to self-destructive behaviour or plain madness. There's some danger to it when people deny the existence of the bad and the ugly, when they're affraid to to confront themselves and others with dirt, blood and fear. It leads to intolerance and to cowardliness. It leads to locking your children up in rooms, giving false sense of security, shari...

@michellezm @ tanyamm: I partly agree, as there maybe some confusion about the meaning of the word 'beauty', or 'esthetics'. In the ideal situation, esthetics and ethics would probably lead to the same thing: harmony. But on the other hand, I find many artists struggling with the idea of what's good or bad, as well as thinkers. In many occassions it led to self-destructive behaviour or plain madness. There's some danger to it when people deny the existence of the bad and the ugly, when they're affraid to to confront themselves and others with dirt, blood and fear. It leads to intolerance and to cowardliness. It leads to locking your children up in rooms, giving false sense of security, sharing make-believes and so on. I don't take good things in life for granted. It isn't there unless you accept the opposites too. As for phone calling at table, you might not do it, but if someone else does, than you'll HAVE to be a not so nice person and defend your ground. Otherwise you lose it. So again, good things aren't there by default. You must conquer them. You need to fight and learn to not be affraid of it. It doesn't help by looking only at nice pictures.

I love Goldfrapp! ... omg... just got this thought, that maybe... but of course! I mean, I do like Goldfrapp, Tom Waits, Cake, De-Phazz, Snoop Dogg, David Bowie, Rasputina, The Pierces, Nikka Costa, Nouvelle-Vague.... to name a few. They're all SIB. Stylish Improper Behaviour. Well well well, there you have it. Good manners my shiny @ss... it's the pretty pretty darkside of it wich I love, the bloodtrail of the Koh-I-Noor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-i-Noor), romancing the stone (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088011/) or even in better settings: as between Hercule Poirot and Vera Rossakoff(http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=KIQehM1I5Rw !). NO NO, turn it back. We need GOOD MANNERS. We need BE...

I love Goldfrapp! ... omg... just got this thought, that maybe... but of course! I mean, I do like Goldfrapp, Tom Waits, Cake, De-Phazz, Snoop Dogg, David Bowie, Rasputina, The Pierces, Nikka Costa, Nouvelle-Vague.... to name a few. They're all SIB. Stylish Improper Behaviour. Well well well, there you have it. Good manners my shiny @ss... it's the pretty pretty darkside of it wich I love, the bloodtrail of the Koh-I-Noor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koh-i-Noor), romancing the stone (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088011/) or even in better settings: as between Hercule Poirot and Vera Rossakoff(http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=KIQehM1I5Rw !). NO NO, turn it back. We need GOOD MANNERS. We need BEER. LOADS of it.. untill we are... http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=Hapufz1NFkY

O, I love David Bowie. Thanks for the vid! He's so amazingly diverse, and self-renewing. Even at this age and weak health he manages to come up with new ideas of merchandising his art and smoothen the path for future artists that want to involve fans more closely in the making and distribution of new material. He has also an incredible charisma I think. One that feels very gentle, almost magical or fairy-tale like. No wonder movies like 'Labyrinth', 'Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence' and 'The Hunger' are real gems. Often somewhat disturbing, or even hard to look at, but nonetheless artworks in their own respect. I like to think that he doesn't pick projects because of their block-buster prognose...

O, I love David Bowie. Thanks for the vid! He's so amazingly diverse, and self-renewing. Even at this age and weak health he manages to come up with new ideas of merchandising his art and smoothen the path for future artists that want to involve fans more closely in the making and distribution of new material. He has also an incredible charisma I think. One that feels very gentle, almost magical or fairy-tale like. No wonder movies like 'Labyrinth', 'Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence' and 'The Hunger' are real gems. Often somewhat disturbing, or even hard to look at, but nonetheless artworks in their own respect. I like to think that he doesn't pick projects because of their block-buster prognoses, but because of the freedom to express his imaginative alter egos. And to stay on-topic: he has very good manners too! Don't you think?

@ debbysky:
I couln't have said it better, neither prettier
It's a bit of a shame I'm not a native english speaker, coz when describing people like Bowie, words automagically want to form a elqouent poem, wich my writing skills do not allow me to produce.

But back to Bowie. If - and i mean 'if' - I had to choose from all men to fall in love with - wich is almost impossible for me to imagine as I'm as straight as a curve in the eye of a drunk man - then of all, it would always be David Bowie. He's the only person that doesn't give me the shivers when thinking about having to spend the night with. No, not sexually (really), but just the very thought of being intimately close with anothe...

@ debbysky:
I couln't have said it better, neither prettier
It's a bit of a shame I'm not a native english speaker, coz when describing people like Bowie, words automagically want to form a elqouent poem, wich my writing skills do not allow me to produce.

But back to Bowie. If - and i mean 'if' - I had to choose from all men to fall in love with - wich is almost impossible for me to imagine as I'm as straight as a curve in the eye of a drunk man - then of all, it would always be David Bowie. He's the only person that doesn't give me the shivers when thinking about having to spend the night with. No, not sexually (really), but just the very thought of being intimately close with another man. I would still feel comfortable when his eyes rested upon me, it wouldn't disturb me to know that he enjoyed the thrill of a gentle touch. Or even share some tears without the anxious thought of being comforted like I was a little boy. Maybe it's some sort of subconscious ideal, i dunno, like a mixture between animus and anima, but there's nothing wrong with that I think >>

I don't want to make any difference between hetero-, homo-, or bisexuality. For me it's clearly all and the same sort of affection / attraction, thus having the same right to be. But I agree that there's not a lot of media portrayal for bisexuality, even in my country (The Netherlands) were homosexuality is a fairly common thing to see on TV and in daily life. There are no secrets or taboos about who's homosexual amongst celebrities. But it's a different story for the 'bi's' as we like to refer to bisexuals. I don't have a clue why. The 'Gay Parade' in Amsterdam (similar to the worldwide 'Love Parade' wich started in Germany) has grown out to be one the biggest yearly national events. Despit...

I don't want to make any difference between hetero-, homo-, or bisexuality. For me it's clearly all and the same sort of affection / attraction, thus having the same right to be. But I agree that there's not a lot of media portrayal for bisexuality, even in my country (The Netherlands) were homosexuality is a fairly common thing to see on TV and in daily life. There are no secrets or taboos about who's homosexual amongst celebrities. But it's a different story for the 'bi's' as we like to refer to bisexuals. I don't have a clue why. The 'Gay Parade' in Amsterdam (similar to the worldwide 'Love Parade' wich started in Germany) has grown out to be one the biggest yearly national events. Despite it's excentric and exhibitionistic nature, ten thousands of ordinary men, women and children visit the festivities. Prominents are eager show to their presence, even members of our Royal Family. But still, the main focus is on homosexuality (including lesbians), not bisexuality.

But maybe there's a future in the same way as homosexuality got out of the dark room (i.c. underground dance parties ). Although the scene was not limited to the extend of homosexuality, the fact that this underground scene went mainstream did contribute to a general acceptance, I think. So maybe something similar could happen again. There's a growing but still underground Emo culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo). One should note that "Fans of emo are also often presumed by others to be homosexual or bisexual; this is largely a reflection of the style of dress popular within the "emo scene" (being that the differences between female emo and male emo fashion are very few)". Nevertheless, as underground culture becomes more populair and earns more media attention, chances are high that 'edgy' demonstrations become widely accepted.

@ tanyamm:

Well, I guessed you did. Never said that protesting couldn't be a funny thing to do. I mean, if people like to exaggerate their lack of social manners, why shouldn't you express your feelings the same way? In general I dislike commercials, but there a few that I like to watch. One of them features a mother that takes her little son to the supermarket. The boy starts to wine when he doesn't get what he wants. It gets even to the point when he's screaming on the floor, with all other costumers checking what's going on, and giving the poor woman dirty looks. Then the mother throws herself to the ground too and starts screaming and wining just like the kid, pounding her fists an...

@ tanyamm:

Well, I guessed you did. Never said that protesting couldn't be a funny thing to do. I mean, if people like to exaggerate their lack of social manners, why shouldn't you express your feelings the same way? In general I dislike commercials, but there a few that I like to watch. One of them features a mother that takes her little son to the supermarket. The boy starts to wine when he doesn't get what he wants. It gets even to the point when he's screaming on the floor, with all other costumers checking what's going on, and giving the poor woman dirty looks. Then the mother throws herself to the ground too and starts screaming and wining just like the kid, pounding her fists and feet on the floor. This of course makes the spoiled brat stop immediate. Mother & son leave, leaving both kid and costumers in total shock. I found it brilliant.

PS: You have to excuse me for limiting the amount of words. I was shocked by the size of my previous post.

@Jan:
I made a clip once about how homophobia hurts everyone and I think you spoke to that. It keeps heterosexuals from forming close platonic same-sex relationships due to the fear of being perceived as homosexual, especially males. I also do think that you are correct in saying that the main focus is on homosexuality instead of bisexuality. It wasn't too long ago that bisexuality was recognized as a separate orientation instead of a stepping stone to being homosexual. So, we have come a long way and I'm really pleased about that. I've also often spoke about the fact that I often feel "invisible" in society and the pain of that. I aspire to be a positive voice in the community and hop...

@Jan:
I made a clip once about how homophobia hurts everyone and I think you spoke to that. It keeps heterosexuals from forming close platonic same-sex relationships due to the fear of being perceived as homosexual, especially males. I also do think that you are correct in saying that the main focus is on homosexuality instead of bisexuality. It wasn't too long ago that bisexuality was recognized as a separate orientation instead of a stepping stone to being homosexual. So, we have come a long way and I'm really pleased about that. I've also often spoke about the fact that I often feel "invisible" in society and the pain of that. I aspire to be a positive voice in the community and hopefully speak to the bias and negative portrayals of the bisexual community.

@TN: I am sorry for turning your nice little manners clip into something else, but you know me hunny; and you know I'll take any opportunity to speak about these things that are important to me, so forgive me, my sweetest friend

@ debbyski:
I have to read some of your earlier clips to know more precise what you mean. But I believe I can relate to some of the things you mentioned. When you mentioned you were bisexual, I also realized that it sounded so trivial to me, as I got to know you without this information. Then I thought about it. And suddenly this came out:

When meeting new people, we have a choice. We can either search for clues about this person and adjust our conlusions during the converation. Or we can rest our mind and start listening with our heart, wich directs all attention to that person. If you don't care about what other details the discussion might unfold, or if you aren't that really interested ...

@ debbyski:
I have to read some of your earlier clips to know more precise what you mean. But I believe I can relate to some of the things you mentioned. When you mentioned you were bisexual, I also realized that it sounded so trivial to me, as I got to know you without this information. Then I thought about it. And suddenly this came out:

When meeting new people, we have a choice. We can either search for clues about this person and adjust our conlusions during the converation. Or we can rest our mind and start listening with our heart, wich directs all attention to that person. If you don't care about what other details the discussion might unfold, or if you aren't that really interested in the person you talk with, then looking for clues would be an effective way of keeping the conversation to yourself. But if you care, then you should listen without thinking what you want to know. Because these thoughts provide no common ground.

Not bad for a sleepy head.

@TN: I apologize too. Where are our manners!

@janclip1300, the skills of your people to speak more than one language is fabulous and you're doing more than a-ok.

I sometimes think Yanks should pack up 80% of its ideas, but them on a trash barge, send all this garbage out to sea; and adapt the ways of the Netherlands.

Of course, I like that other 20% a lot.

The greater tolerance of lifestyles is certainly clear. Much more practicality in making rules and laws rather than ideology. An openness to the ideas and languages of others, etc. (not to mention, food, beer, art, bicycle paths.)

The idea we both noticed about respect as a core idea in the martial arts does include a lot of Tolerance...giving others space to be themselves.

R...

@janclip1300, the skills of your people to speak more than one language is fabulous and you're doing more than a-ok.

I sometimes think Yanks should pack up 80% of its ideas, but them on a trash barge, send all this garbage out to sea; and adapt the ways of the Netherlands.

Of course, I like that other 20% a lot.

The greater tolerance of lifestyles is certainly clear. Much more practicality in making rules and laws rather than ideology. An openness to the ideas and languages of others, etc. (not to mention, food, beer, art, bicycle paths.)

The idea we both noticed about respect as a core idea in the martial arts does include a lot of Tolerance...giving others space to be themselves.

Re: Thread: LOL. Maybe we should start a thread about bisexuality and people will comment on manners. (ha).

The Internet is such a wonderful place to hear different ideas and 'go with the flow."

Going with the flow (s), I was thinking: Jesus said "love that neighbor as you love yourself." But this didn't change the world into one big love fest.

This illustrates a problem with all moral, social or ethical recommendations. Or laws.

Some folks are just going to break the law, ignored the social or ethical recommendations. Some folks are going to double post. Some folks are trolls.

So a real part of enjoying life is not getting everyone to believe as you believe, or sleep around as you sleep around, or everybody to like your particular favorite music -- but to like yourself and how you do things.

I realized there was a big Twist in a cornerstone idea I was taught: Respect....This is not like something I want other people to believe in or other people to do...and I don't do it to kiss anybody's butt.

Respect is part of what I do to move through the world do what I want, get where I'm going...(and it's in karate because it has: 'Survival Value').

Live free or die.

My Latest download: Madonna in Wales/Cardiff: 'Get Stupid."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60hYX8ssBm4

@All:
Sorry guys & girls, this will be a long post again.

@citizenbfk:
Thanks for the kind words! I feel greatly encouraged by the spirit of understanding and communicating. It is indeed a fine community, with a nice balance between serious topics and great laughs. I like that.

I think I have to moderate your enthusiasm about the Dutch culture a bit . There's some truth about what you said, but sadly with the political and social developments these days, things are turning bad. There's a growing discomfort and bitterness about he way our government handles problems. Many people feel that politicians (and economic leaders) lack sense of responsibility and that they hide behind empty word...

@All:
Sorry guys & girls, this will be a long post again.

@citizenbfk:
Thanks for the kind words! I feel greatly encouraged by the spirit of understanding and communicating. It is indeed a fine community, with a nice balance between serious topics and great laughs. I like that.

I think I have to moderate your enthusiasm about the Dutch culture a bit . There's some truth about what you said, but sadly with the political and social developments these days, things are turning bad. There's a growing discomfort and bitterness about he way our government handles problems. Many people feel that politicians (and economic leaders) lack sense of responsibility and that they hide behind empty words about old fashioned (so called Christian) morality and the need for more security. Being confronted with criticism, they read from script and reply that further investigation is needed.

Dutch people lose their faith in government and the justice system. They feel that the government is more interested in holding up the ideal of a multicultural society, rather than addressing the real problems. Because of that, they don't feel protected against the intimidation and harassments by some members of ethnic groups. This leads to further stigmata of these ethnic groups. And people losing their respect for differences. There's also growing concern about the justice and rehabilitation system that fails to keep the convicted from repeating their crimes. And then you have the strong resentments against the warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So there's a lot of unsatisfied people and they will more and more respond with conservative, xenophobic, anti-American or anti-European sentiments. The increasing use of strong language in media and opinion sites indicates that the boiling point is very near. This would not have happened if people still believed in our democratic system.

OK, I have to continue this one. I can not just stop here.

People feel betrayed by the system because there is no real democracy anymore. It got corrupted by politicians who value their personal goals higher than the people's welfare. It got corrupted by politicians who pretend to reduce the gap between them and their voters, but turn out to be nothing but selfish propogandists, looking to score. They leave the stage as soon as they got there.

The system got corrupted by its size and complexity. European law is hard to understand, but it interferes with national law and this gives politicians an opportunity to postpone decisions. At the same time unpopular measures are being pushed through without any consent. F.i. there has been a referendum about...

People feel betrayed by the system because there is no real democracy anymore. It got corrupted by politicians who value their personal goals higher than the people's welfare. It got corrupted by politicians who pretend to reduce the gap between them and their voters, but turn out to be nothing but selfish propogandists, looking to score. They leave the stage as soon as they got there.

The system got corrupted by its size and complexity. European law is hard to understand, but it interferes with national law and this gives politicians an opportunity to postpone decisions. At the same time unpopular measures are being pushed through without any consent. F.i. there has been a referendum about the implementation of an European constitution. The Dutch government felt they lost face with the nation having voted "NO" big time. So they (European Commission) decided to re-formulate the whole thing, but really just renaming it, not using the word 'constitution'. So our government simply ignores the outcomes of legal referenda.

The system has become a shopping mall for the elite, closing it's doors for the general public. Therefore we are no longer able to follow their tracks or to remind them of their election program. We lost control. If changes are to be made, it will probably be from below.

And we all know what that means. >>

All these sentiments give room for dangerous developments, which look similar to that of the period just before World War I ('20-30). It was a time of economic crisis and many nationalistic conflicts worldwide. A time in which many respected men believed war and violence was a right thing to do and even a cure for 'diseases' like homosexuality. A time in which depression and anti-sentiments gave room for the upcoming of the nazi regime. Any person with sense of history can see the striking similarities. I believe you already know of the video featuring Naomi Klein about 'The Fascist Blueprint'. Well, this clearly doesn't happen in America alone. There is worldwide fear of loosing national, c...

All these sentiments give room for dangerous developments, which look similar to that of the period just before World War I ('20-30). It was a time of economic crisis and many nationalistic conflicts worldwide. A time in which many respected men believed war and violence was a right thing to do and even a cure for 'diseases' like homosexuality. A time in which depression and anti-sentiments gave room for the upcoming of the nazi regime. Any person with sense of history can see the striking similarities. I believe you already know of the video featuring Naomi Klein about 'The Fascist Blueprint'. Well, this clearly doesn't happen in America alone. There is worldwide fear of loosing national, cultural or religious identity. Democracy has been corrupted ever since treaties were made, but mixed with religion, hell brakes loose (you can't discuss with God). With corrupted power everywhere, one holds his breath...